Car tax bull c++p

mr_eddy
mr_eddy Posts: 830
edited March 2018 in The cake stop
So further on from my last post I for a refund d on the dodgy car I bought from a dealer. Decided to throw a bit more cash at a newer 17 plate car - a small Suzuki producing less than 100g co2

Totally forgot that I have to £140 a year !!!!

I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.

Surely it cannot be fair that I pay the same rate as my mates 17 plate VXR astra which produces Waaaay more harmful emissions than my car

Total bull

Rant over should have checked first still bloody annoying
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Comments

  • mr_eddy
    mr_eddy Posts: 830
    Also how can it be fair that someone who drives say 50k miles in a 2.0 focus pays the same as someone who does 5k a year in a tiny 3 cylinder Toyota Aygo etc?

    The sooner we get this Muppet Hammond away from the table the better
  • mr_eddy
    mr_eddy Posts: 830
    As cyclist we all know it's NOT road tax it's vehicle tax so surely the vehicle type should be the main factor
  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    Surely vehicle use should be the main factor?
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  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Blimey. I had to check. All new cars are taxed at 140 quid now unless they're zero emissions. What a weird move.

    I guess there's so much tax on fuel that the big engines will pay more tax anyway.

    I wonder what will happen when the electric cars really take off - they'll need a new model presumably.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,192
    cougie wrote:
    Blimey. I had to check. All new cars are taxed at 140 quid now unless they're zero emissions. What a weird move.

    I guess there's so much tax on fuel that the big engines will pay more tax anyway.

    I wonder what will happen when the electric cars really take off - they'll need a new model presumably.
    And ways to generate enough money to pay for the new power stations to generate the electricity. This has not been fully thought through. As usual.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
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  • wongataa
    wongataa Posts: 1,001
    mr_eddy wrote:
    I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.
    Taxes on fuel would be fairer but the haulage industry won't let that happen.
  • Flâneur
    Flâneur Posts: 3,081
    wongataa wrote:
    mr_eddy wrote:
    I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.
    Taxes on fuel would be fairer but the haulage industry won't let that happen.


    would also end up being way more than £140 for the majority of car users
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  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    cougie wrote:
    Blimey. I had to check. All new cars are taxed at 140 quid now unless they're zero emissions. What a weird move.

    I guess there's so much tax on fuel that the big engines will pay more tax anyway.

    I wonder what will happen when the electric cars really take off - they'll need a new model presumably.

    Sort of. First year is significantly more for most vehicles, and the £140 is only for cars with a list price under £40k.
    I don't do smileys.

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  • So your paying less than £12 a month VED to pollute the atmosphere and your complaining, wow. Do you not realise we’re killing the planet with our fossil fuel burning habit?

    If it was up to me you would pay a lot more but I would ring fence the money raised and use it to invest in technology/infrastructure to move away from fossil fuels
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,192
    So your paying less than £12 a month VED to pollute the atmosphere and your complaining, wow. Do you not realise we’re killing the planet with our fossil fuel burning habit?

    If it was up to me you would pay a lot more but I would ring fence the money raised and use it to invest in technology/infrastructure to move away from fossil fuels
    To be gobbled up by the required power station. Nuclear or gas fired?
    I doubt solar, wind or tidal will cover it.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
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  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    So your paying less than £12 a month VED to pollute the atmosphere and your complaining, wow. Do you not realise we’re killing the planet with our fossil fuel burning habit?

    If it was up to me you would pay a lot more but I would ring fence the money raised and use it to invest in technology/infrastructure to move away from fossil fuels

    You might be missing the point here. A small engine car pays as much tax as a huge diesel. Which doesn't sound right.

    I'm all for electric cars and I think they'll be coming quicker than most predicted.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    PBlakeney wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    Blimey. I had to check. All new cars are taxed at 140 quid now unless they're zero emissions. What a weird move.

    I guess there's so much tax on fuel that the big engines will pay more tax anyway.

    I wonder what will happen when the electric cars really take off - they'll need a new model presumably.
    And ways to generate enough money to pay for the new power stations to generate the electricity. This has not been fully thought through. As usual.

    Yes we will need a new model. Unfortunately politicians just play with us for votes now to keep them in power and not plan long term for the country. Petrol powered cars are on their way out now.
  • ricky_h-2
    ricky_h-2 Posts: 119
    If miles driven by combustion engined cars are declining and fuel duty at £27.6 billion is declining, the government is going to need to plug the gap somehow. Incidentally, fuel duty as one of the largest sources of duties/indirect taxes is one of the reasons why there is so little incentive to do anything other than prioritise the car in transport policy
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Hah! Hah!

    You got caught out by the rule change. What a shame! Stop whinging! At least you still get to pollute the planet with your ICE for just 38.3p per day. If you can't afford that then you shouldn't have got the car.
  • dodgy
    dodgy Posts: 2,890
    mr_eddy wrote:
    or base it on time of day driven etc.

    Should be fairly easy to implement.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 28,164
    oxoman wrote:
    Like the idea of electric cars till you way up that a lot of houses dont have drives so what do we do extension lead across the path. Also what happens when i want to drive to scotland non stop oh i can't.

    Oh heavens, how will we manage? Charging points are already pretty common and are only going to get more so. Driving to Scotland you're probably going to stop for lunch at motorway services - maybe charge up there.
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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,778
    oxoman wrote:
    Like the idea of electric cars till you way up that a lot of houses dont have drives so what do we do extension lead across the path. Also what happens when i want to drive to scotland non stop oh i can't.

    Most people don't do that all that often.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,778
    People think it's completely natural to have 10,000 pools of refined oil all over the country, but can't envisage any future in which there is a way electric cars could be made to work.
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    oxoman wrote:
    Like the idea of electric cars till you way up that a lot of houses dont have drives so what do we do extension lead across the path. Also what happens when i want to drive to scotland non stop oh i can't.

    I'd not want to drive to Scotland non stop anyway - it's a long journey. I'd stop for a break (like they advise) top up the car and away you go. Electric cars would suit me for 99.999% of my journeys. It's why I have a car but the one time I needed to move a lot of furniture - I hired a van

    Who knows what will happen in the future with self driving cars - I suspect a lot of people won't have cars of their own but pay for use of a pool car thing.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,192
    People think it's completely natural to have 10,000 pools of refined oil all over the country, but can't envisage any future in which there is a way electric cars could be made to work.
    And where is all this new “clean” electricity going to come from? Remember last week when the grid was going into overload just because of some snow?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Crazy idea but more solar panels and wind farms ? Just a few years ago we didn't have any. Things change
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,385
    PBlakeney wrote:
    People think it's completely natural to have 10,000 pools of refined oil all over the country, but can't envisage any future in which there is a way electric cars could be made to work.
    And where is all this new “clean” electricity going to come from? Remember last week when the grid was going into overload just because of some snow?

    Especially when the government dither about funding projects like the Swansea Bay tidal barrage which is a huge, untapped source of clean energy. Sure, the technology is in its infancy but we have to start somewhere and then learn the lessons for the next project.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,192
    Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Didn't the EU have targets for renewable energy ? I hope we are keeping to those or we are screwed.
  • davis
    davis Posts: 2,506
    oxoman wrote:
    Like the idea of electric cars till you way up that a lot of houses dont have drives so what do we do extension lead across the path. Also what happens when i want to drive to scotland non stop oh i can't.

    You realise that's the same argument people would've had against petrol cars when they were being developed?

    According to 5 minutes on Google, people are getting something like 100-150 miles range out of their Model T Fords, and yet in many eyes they represent the birth of the commercial motor industry. Things move on.
    Sometimes parts break. Sometimes you crash. Sometimes it’s your fault.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 59,396
    wongataa wrote:
    mr_eddy wrote:
    I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.
    Taxes on fuel would be fairer but the haulage industry won't let that happen.
    To be fair you should mention that something like 65% of the price we pay for petrol is tax already.
    https://www.racfoundation.org/data/taxation-as-percentage-of-pump-price-data-page

    As for electric cars, fine as long as the generation of the power to charge them up is not from fossil fuels. And the pollution from manufacturing all the batteries that goes into them is taken into account.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,778
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    wongataa wrote:
    mr_eddy wrote:
    I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.
    Taxes on fuel would be fairer but the haulage industry won't let that happen.
    To be fair you should mention that something like 65% of the price we pay for petrol is tax already.
    https://www.racfoundation.org/data/taxation-as-percentage-of-pump-price-data-page

    As for electric cars, fine as long as the generation of the power to charge them up is not from fossil fuels. And the pollution from manufacturing all the batteries that goes into them is taken into account.

    Agreed, as far as global pollution is concerned. For local pollution in cities, it's all positive.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    You're right; the current system makes no sense at all.

    I considered a petrol / electric hybrid when I last replaced my company car. 3 or 4 colleagues have them, and my commute to the office is short enough to manage that on electricity alone.
    But in the end decided to stick with a small, frugal diesel for a bunch of reasons:
    - employer dragging feet over installing charging points at the office (we still have none 3 years after it was first raised as an issue)
    - i'd need a 50 foot extension lead to charge it at home
    - increasing tax rates coupled with the eye-watering P11D value of the thing meant I'd be worse off after the first year.
    - 99% of my driving is rural / long distances, and then you're lugging around half a tonne of battery with a puny petrol engine; a small diesel is much more fit for purpose.

    I'd love to live in a world without internal combustion engines, and I think we're about due for some real leaps forward in terms of battery / fast charging technology which will make electric vehicles properly viable and allow the storage of power from variable renewables .

    I'd also like a country with better, properly subsidised public transport, better planned housing / schools / hospitals / amenities, so that car ownership isn't necessary. Super-fast broadband and reliable mobile phone coverage could make working from home possible for many more people.

    But what we lack in this country is strategic planning / vision, the will to drive change for the greater good, to invest in infrastructure, to offer serious financial incentives to start adopting and improving new technologies. That's the stuff that government should be doing. You can't just leave it up to Doris in her Nissan Leaf.
  • figbat
    figbat Posts: 680
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    To be fair you should mention that something like 65% of the price we pay for petrol is tax already.
    Here, here. The road fund licence is just icing on the cake, you already pay-per-mile-per-CO2 through fuel duties (car uses more fuel, you pays more monies).
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    As for electric cars, fine as long as the generation of the power to charge them up is not from fossil fuels. And the pollution from manufacturing all the batteries that goes into them is taken into account.
    Here, here (again).

    Well-to-wheel comparisons of electric energy and hydrocarbon energy are not so different. Then we get to cost. It is cheap to charge a car with electricity at the moment, but when electricity starts forming a major part of the transport energy, displacing highly-taxed hydrocarbon fuels, you can bet the taxing of electricity will change. After all, someone has to pay for all the extra infrastructure needed to satiate the growth in demand.
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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 28,164
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.
    I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.
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