Car tax bull c++p

pblakeney

cougie wrote:

PB you do seem a bit down on electric cars ?

It's not like next year everyone will be electric - it's a gradual change. Plenty of time for the infrastructure to come along.

Currently you can get 300 miles from a charge. That's only going to go up. Charging times will come down.

Ten years from now who knows many petrol cars will be on the road.

Electric cars are good. I'm concerned about supply. And those that think electricity is squeaky clean.
The infrastructure will be the limiting factor. The cars are here now.
Charging will get better. That applies to the collection of taxes too. Electricity will not be cheap.

rjsterry

I don't think anyone has suggested EVs are cheaper.

To try and put some (very crude) numbers on the generation capacity question.

Each litre of petrol requires about 10kWh to get to your tank. Let's say 100km uses approx. 5L of petrol. That's 50kWh per 100km. In contrast, an EV will use about 10kWh per 100km. Assuming that petrol production decreases in inverse proportion to the uptake in EVs, globally we won't necessarily need more generating capacity (at least not for that reason). We may need to look at more evenly distributed generation, but that might not be such a bad thing.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think anyone has suggested EVs are cheaper.

The fuel is cheap. For now.
HM Revenue will have to look for a replacement for fuel duty going forward.

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think anyone has suggested EVs are cheaper.

The fuel is cheap. For now.
HM Revenue will have to look for a replacement for fuel duty going forward.

Of course. Road pricing is up and running in various locations. It's just a question of scaling up and coordinating nationally.

pblakeney

So in summary. EVs are expensive to buy, the fuel/charges will become expensive, the National Grid will be overloaded, and the fuel isn't exactly clean. Woo hoo!

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

So in summary. EVs are expensive to buy, the fuel/charges will become expensive, the National Grid will be overloaded, and the fuel isn't exactly clean. Woo hoo!

Soon they won't be. Energy should be expensive. The National Grid won't be overloaded. Nothing humans do is clean, but EVs are a lot cleaner than the current solution.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

So in summary. EVs are expensive to buy, the fuel/charges will become expensive, the National Grid will be overloaded, and the fuel isn't exactly clean. Woo hoo!

Soon they won't be. Energy should be expensive. The National Grid won't be overloaded. Nothing humans do is clean, but EVs are a lot cleaner than the current solution.

Just glad I enjoyed cars while I could. The future may be green but it doesn't look good. The National Grid was nearly overloaded last week. Imagine half the country plugging their cars in overnight and relying on Russia for gas.

Frank Wilson

PBlakeney wrote:

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

If you have a look on Robert 'Kryten' Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel, there's an episode where he drove from London to Turin (IIRC) in a Tesla, specifically to test the range and infrastructure issues.

Any idea how long it took him? When I was in France last summer there were plenty of charging points and most services and large towns in the UK have some so I've no doubt it's possible but from memory it takes something like 45 minutes for a full charge and 15 minutes for a lower charge so that's adding 45 minutes every 100 miles or so which at motorway speeds would take around 90 minutes so it would add about 50% to the journey time (I appreciate that's overly simplistic and you would stop every 100 - 150 miles for a break, would need fuel stops and longer breaks even with a traditional car). That said, the technology has already improved dramatically over the past decade and will come on even faster now all the major manufacturers are looking at electric.

Now imagine everyone else on the motorway attempting the same.
That is either a shedload of charging points or huge cues, for gas powered electricity. Clean?

Will very large snooker players be using those huge cues!!

pblakeney

Frank Wilson wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

If you have a look on Robert 'Kryten' Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel, there's an episode where he drove from London to Turin (IIRC) in a Tesla, specifically to test the range and infrastructure issues.

Any idea how long it took him? When I was in France last summer there were plenty of charging points and most services and large towns in the UK have some so I've no doubt it's possible but from memory it takes something like 45 minutes for a full charge and 15 minutes for a lower charge so that's adding 45 minutes every 100 miles or so which at motorway speeds would take around 90 minutes so it would add about 50% to the journey time (I appreciate that's overly simplistic and you would stop every 100 - 150 miles for a break, would need fuel stops and longer breaks even with a traditional car). That said, the technology has already improved dramatically over the past decade and will come on even faster now all the major manufacturers are looking at electric.

Now imagine everyone else on the motorway attempting the same.
That is either a shedload of charging points or huge cues, for gas powered electricity. Clean?

Will very large snooker players be using those huge cues!!

Bill Werbenuik. Got a tax refund for drinking beer. Legend.
Oops. :oops:

cougie

I don't honestly see there's going to be much difference between petrol cars and electric cars. Apart from the engine noise and some cars already have electronically created noises.

Electric cars need to make whoosh noises like in the films. Then they'll really get popular.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think anyone has suggested EVs are cheaper.

To try and put some (very crude) numbers on the generation capacity question.

Each litre of petrol requires about 10kWh to get to your tank. Let's say 100km uses approx. 5L of petrol. That's 50kWh per 100km. In contrast, an EV will use about 10kWh per 100km. Assuming that petrol production decreases in inverse proportion to the uptake in EVs, globally we won't necessarily need more generating capacity (at least not for that reason). We may need to look at more evenly distributed generation, but that might not be such a bad thing.

If you’re gonna go down energy usage route, the biggest cause of CO2 rises from individual cars and energy usage (particularly in petrol cars where broadly they’ve reached the limits of efficiency) is the rise in horsepower in cars.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think anyone has suggested EVs are cheaper.

To try and put some (very crude) numbers on the generation capacity question.

Each litre of petrol requires about 10kWh to get to your tank. Let's say 100km uses approx. 5L of petrol. That's 50kWh per 100km. In contrast, an EV will use about 10kWh per 100km. Assuming that petrol production decreases in inverse proportion to the uptake in EVs, globally we won't necessarily need more generating capacity (at least not for that reason). We may need to look at more evenly distributed generation, but that might not be such a bad thing.

If you’re gonna go down energy usage route, the biggest cause of CO2 rises from individual cars and energy usage (particularly in petrol cars where broadly they’ve reached the limits of efficiency) is the rise in horsepower in cars.

The comment was an answer to the question of whether increased electricity generating capacity is needed for a complete replacement of IC engines, rather than CO2 production, but yes, and this applies to EVs as well.

mouth

cougie wrote:

Electric cars need to make whoosh noises like in the films. Then they'll really get popular.

Many high end cars have an active exhaust. Some use a kind of butterfly valve or diverter within the exhaust system to amplify what's already there, some literally use an audio track and speaker system under the car. Shouldn't be hard to implement - it's required because EV's are unerringly quiet.

rick_chasey

There’s also presumably an issue around battery longetivity, and the environmental cost of production.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

There’s also presumably an issue around battery longetivity, and the environmental cost of production.

The recycling capacity for lithium ion batteries will have to be increased significantly, and there may need to be some standardisation of battery construction to facilitate recycling. As mentioned above, nothing is without environmental cost, but battery production is an improvement on extraction, refinement and combustion of fossil fuels.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There’s also presumably an issue around battery longetivity, and the environmental cost of production.

The recycling capacity for lithium ion batteries will have to be increased significantly, and there may need to be some standardisation of battery construction to facilitate recycling. As mentioned above, nothing is without environmental cost, but battery production is an improvement on extraction, refinement and combustion of fossil fuels.

Which nicely loops us back to the gas required to supply the power stations.

rjsterry

Even if the electricity stored in EV batteries was exclusively generated by gas fired power stations, there would still be improvement in efficiency, and reduction in CO2 emissions as well as other pollution which is currently at illegal levels in many cities.

pblakeney

It will be an improvement. I just dislike the way EVs are portrayed as being squeaky clean.
They ain't. Also begs the question, what happens when the gas runs out?

Stevo_666

Pross wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

wongataa wrote:

mr_eddy wrote:

I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.

Taxes on fuel would be fairer but the haulage industry won't let that happen.

To be fair you should mention that something like 65% of the price we pay for petrol is tax already.
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/taxation-as-percentage-of-pump-price-data-page

As for electric cars, fine as long as the generation of the power to charge them up is not from fossil fuels. And the pollution from manufacturing all the batteries that goes into them is taken into account.

If you're going to start taking into account the energy required in producing the fuel for the vehicle than as RJS points out you need to look at the energy requirements in extracting and refining oil and transporting the fuel around the country. At least when electricity is generated it doesn't need CO2 emitting vehicles to move it around the place. It would be nice to see real world, whole life environmental comparisons though.

Agree. Point I was trying to make was that we need to look at this 'holistically' but clearly it goes beyond the points that I had mentioned.

mr_eddy

In answer to Aberdeen lune how do you propose I get round the issue , most of us don't have £30k to buy a Nissan Leaf and given I work 38 miles away (each way) cycling is out. No trains or buses either - what should I do ?

Given moving to the area would be too costly and the fact I am in contract until 2019 I can't quit either.

At least I chose a car that pollutes as little as possible for my £5k budget

I think you are living on cloud nine if you think we will all walk and cycle everywhere doffing our caps to fellow pedestrians. In the real world we are at least 5 years from any real electric car take over

Also when all the electric cars are on the road how do we make up for the fact everyone will be paying zero tax?

My point was there must be a interim change that is better than a flat rate of £140 regardless of what type of car you drive or how far and when

rjsterry

mr_eddy wrote:

In answer to Aberdeen lune how do you propose I get round the issue , most of us don't have £30k to buy a Nissan Leaf and given I work 38 miles away (each way) cycling is out. No trains or buses either - what should I do ?

Given moving to the area would be too costly and the fact I am in contract until 2019 I can't quit either.

At least I chose a car that pollutes as little as possible for my £5k budget

I think you are living on cloud nine if you think we will all walk and cycle everywhere doffing our caps to fellow pedestrians. In the real world we are at least 5 years from any real electric car take over

Also when all the electric cars are on the road how do we make up for the fact everyone will be paying zero tax?

My point was there must be a interim change that is better than a flat rate of £140 regardless of what type of car you drive or how far and when

The price of every will come down as they become more mainstream and while you'd be doing well to find one second hand for £5K, you'd not be that far short.

The tax point was covered a few posts back.

Frank Wilson

Good luck with buying a charging lead if you live on the fifteenth floor of a block of flats.

cougie

Don't you think they'll be able to fit charging points at ground level ? Nowadays you can pay for parking on your phone. This seems very similar.

dodgy

Frank Wilson wrote:

Good luck with buying a charging lead if you live on the fifteenth floor of a block of flats.

Good luck having a garden to tend if you live on the fifteenth floor.

Frank Wilson

cougie wrote:

Don't you think they'll be able to fit charging points at ground level ? Nowadays you can pay for parking on your phone. This seems very similar.

Who will pay for all this restrospective infrastructure? At the moment, in my opinion, electric cars will be for those with money and the facility to park in their double garage with power there. Look at this thread, the car everybody keeps quoting for decent mileage is a Tesla which costs mega money.

cougie

Frank you sound like someone telling us that the model T will never replace the horse.

Some charging points ? We already have street lighting. The good thing about charging points is that they will be pay to use them. That's why they will be put in.

And pretty sure the model T was only for the richest few percent. Electric cars will become cheaper with popularity and innovation.

Remember how computers were dear a few years back ?
Remember when mobile phones were only for the likes of high flying businessmen ?

FishFish

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think anyone has suggested EVs are cheaper.

To try and put some (very crude) numbers on the generation capacity question.

Each litre of petrol requires about 10kWh to get to your tank. Let's say 100km uses approx. 5L of petrol. That's 50kWh per 100km. In contrast, an EV will use about 10kWh per 100km. Assuming that petrol production decreases in inverse proportion to the uptake in EVs, globally we won't necessarily need more generating capacity (at least not for that reason). We may need to look at more evenly distributed generation, but that might not be such a bad thing.

I agree that we might not need more capacity but the Transmission and distribution circuits will have to be changed. I did a rough cut calculation on power being number of vehicles x kinetic energy of a car convoluted with duration. The latter assumed an average speed and duration. You can divide by 0.6 if you want to do something about efficiency but I was surprised at how few power stations you need. Unfortunately fusion power is not going to make it on time as an alternative source.

Frank Wilson

cougie wrote:

Frank you sound like someone telling us that the model T will never replace the horse.

Some charging points ? We already have street lighting. The good thing about charging points is that they will be pay to use them. That's why they will be put in.

And pretty sure the model T was only for the richest few percent. Electric cars will become cheaper with popularity and innovation.

Remember how computers were dear a few years back ?
Remember when mobile phones were only for the likes of high flying businessmen ?

Still not doing it for me cougie, I drive to the Algarve a couple of times a year. Looking at a "cheap" electric vehicle, a Zoe, I would have to stop for three periods of 60 minutes at a time just to get to the ferry at Dover. Lord knows how long the next 1400 miles would take.

Think I'll stick with my Euro 6 diesel which I have to fill every 800 miles, is a lot more comfortable than a Renault Zoe, fits the bikes in and cost less than a Zoe.

tangled_metal

I was up in the wilds of Scotland a couple of summers ago and got hold of a map of ev charging points from the tourist information. IIRC it was on the Isle of Mull too. There were quite a few located at carparks, hotels, tourist locations, etc.

Up here I noticed a few summers back there was a lake district ev hire company operating. Strange how it's still running a few years after setting up of there's problems with charging points. That's obviously before we become almost all EVs on the road and before demand for more charging points has been exploited by businesses fully.

Personally I don't think they're 100% green nothing is and tbh manufacture of cars possibly account for a lot of the pollution in their life cycle anyway. However I would put money on them working out as better than the ICE vehicles being driven around today. Green they're not but they're better than what we've got.

There's no way around the fact that ICE vehicles are heavily polluting our cities and indeed parts of our countryside too. Using EVs you have the added benefit of moving the pollution away from the streets where vehicles are being used to power stations away from centres of population. Add in the much higher efficiencies in gas fired power stations than ICEs. Use less fuel and create less pollution using electricity to drive vehicles than fuels like petrol and diesel.

There's he other question about what to do when gas runs out. I'm sure they issue will be faced by the ICE too. Probably about the same time. Perhaps a solution is easiest for large scale electricity generation for use in EVs than for a lot of smaller generating sources such as cars. If we need more nuclear or tidal or whatever the next big generating source is then I bet it's easier, cheaper and more efficient to do it on scale then transporting electricity to the masses of EVs being used than finding individual means of clean energy to power vehicles.

At the end of the day, it's going to happen. Moan away now but accept it. Or carry on shouting at the tide to stop it coming in King Canute! It'll wash over you sooner or later.

cougie

Blimey. UK to the Algarve ! That's not the norm.

Ok so you're not ready to change yet but as we've said - technology is improving. Prices will reduce. Toyota aren't selling diesels in the UK from next year. Others will follow.

In a few years time you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about electric.