Car tax bull c++p

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.

I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

Pross

Stevo 666 wrote:

wongataa wrote:

mr_eddy wrote:

I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.

Taxes on fuel would be fairer but the haulage industry won't let that happen.

To be fair you should mention that something like 65% of the price we pay for petrol is tax already.
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/taxation-as-percentage-of-pump-price-data-page

As for electric cars, fine as long as the generation of the power to charge them up is not from fossil fuels. And the pollution from manufacturing all the batteries that goes into them is taken into account.

If you're going to start taking into account the energy required in producing the fuel for the vehicle than as RJS points out you need to look at the energy requirements in extracting and refining oil and transporting the fuel around the country. At least when electricity is generated it doesn't need CO2 emitting vehicles to move it around the place. It would be nice to see real world, whole life environmental comparisons though.

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.

I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

The network of petrol stations is not government managed. The likes of Shell, etc are already investing in EV infrastructure. I have more faith in them making it happen than HMG. prototype HGVs that run on hydrogen fuel cells already exist.

drlodge

Regarding charging of electric cars, electricity costs 4-5 times the amount of gas. There are some limited CHP - combined heat and power - boilers on the market but I can see a gap here if electric cars really take off, of boiler manufacturers incorporating a better power module so that your electric car is charged using gas and so is a lot cheaper.

davebradswmb

KingstonGraham wrote:

oxoman wrote:

Like the idea of electric cars till you way up that a lot of houses dont have drives so what do we do extension lead across the path. Also what happens when i want to drive to scotland non stop oh i can't.

Most people don't do that all that often.

You don't have to want to do it that often. in the past I have probably averaged 3 Scottish trips a year, plus another to Alps, and several day trips to remote parts of Wales involving a round trip of over 300 miles. I expect that most electric car owners have a second vehicle for using on the longer journeys. The range and charging issues will have to be addressed before it will be common for people to only run electric cars.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.

I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

The network of petrol stations is not government managed. The likes of Shell, etc are already investing in EV infrastructure. I have more faith in them making it happen than HMG. prototype HGVs that run on hydrogen fuel cells already exist.

I acknowledge the existence of the technology.
I doubt the reality of the infrastructure that will be clean and affordable in the foreseeable future.

rick_chasey

How much less CO2 is produced moving an electric car around vs petrol or diesel car?

If it's marginal, all that really happens is you shift where the CO2 is produced.

Jez mon

davebradswmb wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

oxoman wrote:

Like the idea of electric cars till you way up that a lot of houses dont have drives so what do we do extension lead across the path. Also what happens when i want to drive to scotland non stop oh i can't.

Most people don't do that all that often.

You don't have to want to do it that often. in the past I have probably averaged 3 Scottish trips a year, plus another to Alps, and several day trips to remote parts of Wales involving a round trip of over 300 miles. I expect that most electric car owners have a second vehicle for using on the longer journeys. The range and charging issues will have to be addressed before it will be common for people to only run electric cars.

Wouldn't it seem easier to have an electric car for day to day use, then rent a bigger non-electric car for the 5 or so holidays?

I think my old driving pattern would be reasonably typical, 5 miles commute each day, then 160 mile round trip at the weekend. Easily within the range of a Tesla.

Long distance 12 hour non stop drives are the exception for the vast majority.

Jez mon

Rick Chasey wrote:

How much less CO2 is produced moving an electric car around vs petrol or diesel car?

If it's marginal, all that really happens is you shift where the CO2 is produced.

Loosely speaking, you can run a power plant at it's optimum point for thermal efficiency constantly. (Plus you can readily make electricity without generating CO2).

For a car, you need to run the engine through the rev range, so you don't get that benefit. You are also fundamentally forced to generate the energy in a manner that's releasing CO2, and additional nasties like NOx and SOx

I'm not sure about the efficiency of electric motors though, so I'm not sure if you get a similar effect.

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.

I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

The network of petrol stations is not government managed. The likes of Shell, etc are already investing in EV infrastructure. I have more faith in them making it happen than HMG. prototype HGVs that run on hydrogen fuel cells already exist.

I acknowledge the existence of the technology.
I doubt the reality of the infrastructure that will be clean and affordable in the foreseeable future.

A lot of it already exists.
Have a look at zap-map.com/charger-search/

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.

I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

The network of petrol stations is not government managed. The likes of Shell, etc are already investing in EV infrastructure. I have more faith in them making it happen than HMG. prototype HGVs that run on hydrogen fuel cells already exist.

I acknowledge the existence of the technology.
I doubt the reality of the infrastructure that will be clean and affordable in the foreseeable future.

A lot of it already exists.
Have a look at zap-map.com/charger-search/

I am talking about the infrastructure for the majority in the near future being in place, from a clean source, and affordable. The technology exists, the implementation is another matter.

Pross

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.

I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

The network of petrol stations is not government managed. The likes of Shell, etc are already investing in EV infrastructure. I have more faith in them making it happen than HMG. prototype HGVs that run on hydrogen fuel cells already exist.

I acknowledge the existence of the technology.
I doubt the reality of the infrastructure that will be clean and affordable in the foreseeable future.

A lot of it already exists.
Have a look at zap-map.com/charger-search/

I think the real breakthrough will be when you can get a full charge during a standard services pit stop. I regularly drive fairly long distances so take a quick toilet and coffee stop after a couple of hours so if I could go around 150 miles with no range anxiety and re-charge fully in 15 minutes electric would become a serious option. At the moment a plug-in hybrid is the best I could manage.

rjsterry

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fully electrical cars are foreseeable as the main mode of transportation in the near future. The power for them hasn’t been developed. I see that as an issue.

I'm sure you're aware that fuel production uses huge amounts of energy in itself. About 10kWh per litre before you've turned the key.

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

The network of petrol stations is not government managed. The likes of Shell, etc are already investing in EV infrastructure. I have more faith in them making it happen than HMG. prototype HGVs that run on hydrogen fuel cells already exist.

I acknowledge the existence of the technology.
I doubt the reality of the infrastructure that will be clean and affordable in the foreseeable future.

A lot of it already exists.
Have a look at zap-map.com/charger-search/

I think the real breakthrough will be when you can get a full charge during a standard services pit stop. I regularly drive fairly long distances so take a quick toilet and coffee stop after a couple of hours so if I could go around 150 miles with no range anxiety and re-charge fully in 15 minutes electric would become a serious option. At the moment a plug-in hybrid is the best I could manage.

If you have a look on Robert 'Kryten' Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel, there's an episode where he drove from London to Turin (IIRC) in a Tesla, specifically to test the range and infrastructure issues.

dodgy

A lot of rubbish is spouted about our apparent future inability to fuel EVs. I've been following @bobbyllew for a while on Twitter and also watch his youtube channel occasionally, I find it informative. He's often taken to task by people on Twitter with the same kind of unsubstantiated nonsense I see on this thread and bats it straight back with facts. Remember them?

Anyway, this is worth a read http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1264/ ... r-v032.pdf

Edit: I was typing this out when someone above me in the thread mentioned bobbyllew, too

mouth

PBlakeney wrote:

Yes. But look around you. Do you have any confidence in this country delivering on the required infrastructure that would be needed if the majority of cars were electric? And that doesn't even touch on HGVs.

I work in public transport - one of the larger private companies in the UK - and recently undertook a study in switching to an electric fleet.

Based on current range of vehicles available (80-90 miles per charge) and our mileage requirements we'd need to up our fleet from approx. 350 vehicles (peak vehicle requirement of about 315) to nearly 1000. Clearly we'd need to move premises and modern depot rules suggest we'd need around 15x the space we currently occupy. There is nowhere that could accommodate us, except maybe CPO'ing a whole small town or large village. This is for one company in one town. There's another in or town roughly the same size, and close to again in each of our neighbouring cities. London alone currently has around 8000 buses. imagine that.

In addition to this, the electrical infrastructure required would mean that we need to increase the input of energy into the city's 'grid' by at least double - I don't mean our building, or our street, I mean the WHOLE city's current requirements. Admittedly, cars represent a smaller issue in that we can charge them on our drive using our existing 3-pin setup, but we're a long long way from either HGV or public transport being solved by electricity. Admittedly things are getting better - Optare suggest that within 3 years they'll have a vehicle with a range of 120 or so miles, but it will still be a huge leap after that for my company.

Pross

rjsterry wrote:

If you have a look on Robert 'Kryten' Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel, there's an episode where he drove from London to Turin (IIRC) in a Tesla, specifically to test the range and infrastructure issues.

Any idea how long it took him? When I was in France last summer there were plenty of charging points and most services and large towns in the UK have some so I've no doubt it's possible but from memory it takes something like 45 minutes for a full charge and 15 minutes for a lower charge so that's adding 45 minutes every 100 miles or so which at motorway speeds would take around 90 minutes so it would add about 50% to the journey time (I appreciate that's overly simplistic and you would stop every 100 - 150 miles for a break, would need fuel stops and longer breaks even with a traditional car). That said, the technology has already improved dramatically over the past decade and will come on even faster now all the major manufacturers are looking at electric.

dodgy

The range of a Tesla is a lot longer than your quoted distances. Nearer 300 when driven conservatively

rjsterry

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

If you have a look on Robert 'Kryten' Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel, there's an episode where he drove from London to Turin (IIRC) in a Tesla, specifically to test the range and infrastructure issues.

Any idea how long it took him? When I was in France last summer there were plenty of charging points and most services and large towns in the UK have some so I've no doubt it's possible but from memory it takes something like 45 minutes for a full charge and 15 minutes for a lower charge so that's adding 45 minutes every 100 miles or so which at motorway speeds would take around 90 minutes so it would add about 50% to the journey time (I appreciate that's overly simplistic and you would stop every 100 - 150 miles for a break, would need fuel stops and longer breaks even with a traditional car). That said, the technology has already improved dramatically over the past decade and will come on even faster now all the major manufacturers are looking at electric.

I don't remember all the details but I do recall that he managed to partially recharge the battery with regenerative braking as he came down from crossing the Alps.

Edit:
Yer 'tis

https://youtu.be/9JjnTUh5e-0

Oops, Genoa, not Turin.

cougie

I saw a Swiss Tesla near Chester the other day. So it's clearly possible to do long journeys in them. That YouTube channel is worth watching.

dodgy

I saw that very (probably) same car, Cougie.

pblakeney

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

If you have a look on Robert 'Kryten' Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel, there's an episode where he drove from London to Turin (IIRC) in a Tesla, specifically to test the range and infrastructure issues.

Any idea how long it took him? When I was in France last summer there were plenty of charging points and most services and large towns in the UK have some so I've no doubt it's possible but from memory it takes something like 45 minutes for a full charge and 15 minutes for a lower charge so that's adding 45 minutes every 100 miles or so which at motorway speeds would take around 90 minutes so it would add about 50% to the journey time (I appreciate that's overly simplistic and you would stop every 100 - 150 miles for a break, would need fuel stops and longer breaks even with a traditional car). That said, the technology has already improved dramatically over the past decade and will come on even faster now all the major manufacturers are looking at electric.

Now imagine everyone else on the motorway attempting the same.
That is either a shedload of charging points or huge cues, for gas powered electricity. Clean?

dodgy

Yeah, imagine everyone on the motorway all deciding to drive to Genoa on the same day.

PistonHeads is already full of this denialist crap and now it's moving to a cycling forum, of all places!

cougie

I don't see that it's much different from normal sevices ?
Park car. Plug in. Go for coffee and a wee. Come back unplug and set off.

It's not that difficult to imagine - and better as you don't have to be out in the cold pumping fuel.

pblakeney

dodgy wrote:

Yeah, imagine everyone on the motorway all deciding to drive to Genoa on the same day.

Yes but imagine everyone on a motorway deciding to drive on a motorway. 45 minutes instead of 5 so cues would build up. Not all drives are commuting or shopping.
Plus, as was mentioned earlier the Government will be skint due to no fuel duty. Charging duty is inevitable.

dodgy

I guess if you look for problems hard enough, you'll find 'em.

When ADSL and slightly before it, cable modems, first appeared, the IT press was full of "but the Internet will be swamped". Guess what happened? Capacity increased because it was all predicted.

The gradual (and it will / is gradual) move to EVs will allow time for infrastructure to be built.

My next car is electric and I drive to the French Alps every year.

pblakeney

No need to look hard. All fairly obvious and common sense. Look at the big picture, especially taxes and clean supply. Finger in the air style optimism doesn't work for me.

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

If you have a look on Robert 'Kryten' Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel, there's an episode where he drove from London to Turin (IIRC) in a Tesla, specifically to test the range and infrastructure issues.

Any idea how long it took him? When I was in France last summer there were plenty of charging points and most services and large towns in the UK have some so I've no doubt it's possible but from memory it takes something like 45 minutes for a full charge and 15 minutes for a lower charge so that's adding 45 minutes every 100 miles or so which at motorway speeds would take around 90 minutes so it would add about 50% to the journey time (I appreciate that's overly simplistic and you would stop every 100 - 150 miles for a break, would need fuel stops and longer breaks even with a traditional car). That said, the technology has already improved dramatically over the past decade and will come on even faster now all the major manufacturers are looking at electric.

Now imagine everyone else on the motorway attempting the same.
That is either a shedload of charging points or huge cues, for gas powered electricity. Clean?

Yes, compared to an internal combustion engine, electricity from a gas fired power station is pretty clean. In the early 20th century there were predictions that London would be submerged under metres of horse manure from the ever increasing number of horse-drawn vehicles.

...optimism doesn't work for me.

Indeed.

It's not a question of "finger in the air" it's already happening. In 5 years the number of EVs in the UK has gone from 3500 to 135000. It'll take a while. HMG will have to adjust how it taxes fuel/energy, as transport transitions from one source to the other, but that's something that has been done many times before.

dodgy

'no need to look hard', wtaf are you on about now?!

cougie

PB you do seem a bit down on electric cars ?

It's not like next year everyone will be electric - it's a gradual change. Plenty of time for the infrastructure to come along.

Currently you can get 300 miles from a charge. That's only going to go up. Charging times will come down.

Ten years from now who knows many petrol cars will be on the road.

rjsterry

Was just reading an interview with Paul Johnson of the IFS. Among many things he was talking about how the government will have to road pricing to replace fuel duty. That's already in place in quite a few UK locations, so again: it's already happening.