JiffyGate....No Charges!!

ocdupalais

andyp wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I image they're scraping the bottom of the Wiggins barrel (doping at a 90s Six would hardly be news). Next it will be an investigation into the kids races at Herne Hill.

Those little sods are so well coached, it's criminal. Being bullied on the banking by a 12 year old who doesn't care if he crashes and misses school the next day is quite something to experience.

Mmm... mention of Herne Hill, Hayles...suspicious performances... it’s all slipping into place.
I forget which year it was, but in the Roadman’s Pursuit one Good Friday meet (10km, with riders starting from standstill at evenly spaced points around the track). Graeme Obree took forever to get his ridiculous gear going on Old Faithful and was nearly disqualified by Hayles who drew level, but couldn’t get around him- Obree then went on to crush everyone.
I’d really like some ambitious nerk, writing for a sh!tty organ, to diminish my memories further by drumming up some inflammatory twaddle about that episode.

tailwindhome

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

The couriering isn't at all suspect to me. Teams do this all the time with all sorts of things.

Agreed

It's just being wilfully gullible however to believe that you can open the cupboard at British Cycling where the medicines are kept, take out whatever you want and there's no record kept.

LOL.
May have to retract this.
UKAD investigation reveals this was exactly the case at British Cycling.

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/951895383592054784

Vino'sGhost

TailWindHome wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

The couriering isn't at all suspect to me. Teams do this all the time with all sorts of things.

Agreed

It's just being wilfully gullible however to believe that you can open the cupboard at British Cycling where the medicines are kept, take out whatever you want and there's no record kept.

LOL.
May have to retract this.
UKAD investigation reveals this was exactly the case at British Cycling.

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/951895383592054784

Almost unbelievable

trivial_poursuivant

FFS why we dragging this shite back up again? Let it go.

Matthewfalle

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wigg ... -j73zzc7hl

CuthbertC

Testosterone patches were delivered seven years ago to the velodrome which remains the HQ of both the national governing body and Team Sky.

Sportsmail understands a General Medical Council investigation into Dr Richard Freeman, the former Team Sky and British Cycling doctor, has obtained evidence that suggests testosterone patches were ordered.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... ky-HQ.html

blazing_saddles

CuthbertC wrote:

Testosterone patches were delivered seven years ago to the velodrome which remains the HQ of both the national governing body and Team Sky.

Sportsmail understands a General Medical Council investigation into Dr Richard Freeman, the former Team Sky and British Cycling doctor, has obtained evidence that suggests testosterone patches were ordered.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... ky-HQ.html

Err, this was news back in March of last year.
Nicole Sapstead told everybody except Matt Lawson, apparently.

CuthbertC

No one has previously claimed that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches was made from the National Cycling Centre. Freeman and Peters have claimed that it was delivered by mistake, they never said that someone from the National Cycling Centre made the order.

blazing_saddles

CuthbertC wrote:

No one has previously claimed that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches was made from the National Cycling Centre. Freeman and Peters have claimed that it was delivered by mistake, they never said that someone from the National Cycling Centre made the order.

Doesn't claim, suggests.
A word not uncommon to this saga.
I suggest time will tell.

DeVlaeminck

Who knows, if they are found to have lied though it's not going to look good. Are there any legitimate explanations for an order of testosterone patches, is there another bus they can throw Freeman under again?

The bit that makes me laugh is that they are so keen to say Brailsford didn't know anything about it, really? They didn't even mention in passing that a load of banned peds had been delivered for Freeman, even to have a laugh about it and what some people would make of it.

CuthbertC

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

No one has previously claimed that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches was made from the National Cycling Centre. Freeman and Peters have claimed that it was delivered by mistake, they never said that someone from the National Cycling Centre made the order.

Doesn't claim, suggests.
A word not uncommon to this saga.
I suggest time will tell.

No, the Daily Mail has claimed that there is evidence. That is not a suggestion.

bigmat

CuthbertC wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

No one has previously claimed that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches was made from the National Cycling Centre. Freeman and Peters have claimed that it was delivered by mistake, they never said that someone from the National Cycling Centre made the order.

Doesn't claim, suggests.
A word not uncommon to this saga.
I suggest time will tell.

No, the Daily Mail has claimed that there is evidence. That is not a suggestion.

I suggest that a box of testosterone patches being delivered is evidence that suggests that a box of testosterone patches was ordered. It doesn't prove it though, as they could have been delivered in error. I suggest there's nothing new here.

Mad_Malx

They were SurDave's so he could maintain his Bond-villain pate.

StillGoing

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Testosterone patches were delivered seven years ago to the velodrome which remains the HQ of both the national governing body and Team Sky.

Sportsmail understands a General Medical Council investigation into Dr Richard Freeman, the former Team Sky and British Cycling doctor, has obtained evidence that suggests testosterone patches were ordered.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... ky-HQ.html

Err, this was news back in March of last year.
Nicole Sapstead told everybody except Matt Lawson, apparently.

The odious Matt Lawton clearly appears to have an agenda to try and chuck dirt at anything with a link to his paper's rival publisher. Like you say, this is old news and he reports nothing new. He's a second rate hack at best. Maybe he should delve a little more into the drug cheats in other sports for a more sensational story.

DeVlaeminck

If there is evidence someone at BC or Sky ordered them then there is most definitely something new here.

kingstongraham

DeVlaeminck wrote:

If there is evidence someone at BC or Sky ordered them then there is most definitely something new here.

Agreed, the correct response will be to investigate whether it is real or fake, and if real, who ordered it, and who knew about the order.

Sky should not be defensive.

CuthbertC

BigMat wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

No one has previously claimed that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches was made from the National Cycling Centre. Freeman and Peters have claimed that it was delivered by mistake, they never said that someone from the National Cycling Centre made the order.

Doesn't claim, suggests.
A word not uncommon to this saga.
I suggest time will tell.

No, the Daily Mail has claimed that there is evidence. That is not a suggestion.

I suggest that a box of testosterone patches being delivered is evidence that suggests that a box of testosterone patches was ordered. It doesn't prove it though, as they could have been delivered in error. I suggest there's nothing new here.

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck wrote:

If there is evidence someone at BC or Sky ordered them then there is most definitely something new here.

That's the question and unless one's automatic default setting is to believe everything that is written about Sky is true, it's a big if.

it emerged that investigators may have found evidence that an order for a banned substance

Sportsmail understands a General Medical Council investigation into Dr Richard Freeman, the former Team Sky and British Cycling doctor, has obtained evidence that suggests testosterone patches were ordered.

That sensational allegation was made during what is an ongoing GMC investigation into Freeman

Now, one may choose to ignore the obviously guarded language used, believe there is a GMC source. and go with the sensationalist headlines and subsequent allegation being fact.
But just who exactly is making these allegations?

Now compare and contrast with this, from Cyclingnews, one month ago.

La Gazzetta dello Sport writes that their trusted source believes that Froome’s case is approaching an important crossroads, with the case having left the UCI's Legal Anti-Doping Services (LADS) department and about to be picked up by the UCI's Anti-Doping Tribunal, which handles disciplinary proceedings and renders decisions concerning anti-doping rules violations.

Fast forward a few days and:

Chris Froome's salbutamol case is reportedly set to be heard by the UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal, with Italian sports newspaper La Gazzetta dello Sport suggesting that "from the end of this week or the start of next week, every day could be good for the start of opening of a procedure under the Tribunal."

We also had previously had this:

However, the Corriere della Sera newspaper reports that Froome "has understood he has lost the war and is ready to sign an honourable armistice".

The Italian newspaper claims that Froome has little chance of convincing the UCI Legal Anti-Doping Services (LADS) that he reached a level of 2000ng/ml of salbutamol in his urine – twice the limit – through permitted dosages using his asthma inhaler.

Corriere della Sera also suggests the idea that Froome’s kidneys could have somehow retained a quantity of salbutamol and skewed his sample has only irritated the UCI and a number of cycling doctors...

In time, these "claims" and "suggestions" have either remained unfulfilled or proven false.
So again, I prefer to wait and see.
As whether there is any substance :P to Lawton's allegations, the ball does seem to be in the GMC's court.
Although I am not sure how keen to expose any findings to the court of public opinion.

StillGoing

It was all widely reported around March last year. In a check, Freeman reported the patches had been delivered by mistake and was told to repack and return them, get confirmation that the return order had been received in full and obtain confirmation that the delivery had been sent by mistake. Matt Lawton's muck raking is all to do with BC and Sky not releasing the confirmation email for public view despite FoI requests. Personally, I wouldn't give Matt Lawton the steam off of my piss.

In all of this saga, who is the one person with the past links to doping and responsibility for ordering medications? Could it be the person who reported the patches had been received in error and subsequently returned them? The story here is Freeman and not BC or Sky as some would like to make out. Every business/employer has its rogue operators.

From the Guardian 5th March 2017.
Freeman has, apparently, told Ukad it was not destined for any riders.

Dr Steve Peters, who was head of medical at British Cycling and Team Sky, told the Sunday Times he and a British Cycling colleague were on site when the package arrived and that they questioned Freeman over it. It was established that the supplier had sent it by mistake and it was returned, something which he had confirmed with Freeman. Peters was, he said, satisfied that it was “an administrative error”.

Sir Dave Brailsford, Team Sky’s principal, was contacted by the Guardian but did not respond while Team Sky added on Sunday that they had not been aware of the episode and that it did not relate to them, being a British Cycling matter.

blazing_saddles

CuthbertC wrote:

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... hes-doping

Apologies that this source has already been quoted, but I've added the link.

In fairness they do use the same non-committal words as Lawton in the DM, but hey whats good for the goose 'n all that.

RichN95.

So supposedly this is how you run a doping program.

Order PEDs from a legitimate seller with a paper trail
Have them sent to team headquarters
When they arrive have them sent straight back

Really?

CuthbertC

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... hes-doping

Apologies that this source has already been quoted, but I've added the link.

In fairness they do use the same non-committal words as Lawton in the DM, but hey whats good for the goose 'n all that.

For the last time, where in the article does anyone claim that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches originated from the National Cycling Centre?

bobmcstuff

RichN95 wrote:

So supposedly this is how you run a doping program.

Order PEDs from a legitimate seller with a paper trail
Have them sent to team headquarters
When they arrive have them sent straight back

Really?

Yeah, doesn't really make a lot of sense. If true, they're extremely stupid, which doesn't really tie in with the portrayal of Sky as evil villains.

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

So supposedly this is how you run a doping program.

Order PEDs from a legitimate seller with a paper trail
Have them sent to team headquarters
When they arrive have them sent straight back

Really?

Yeah, doesn't really make a lot of sense. If true, they're extremely stupid, which doesn't really tie in with the portrayal of Sky as evil villains.

It's as if in episode 1 of The Wire McNulty finds a big stash of heroin being delivered to Stringer Bell's house by Fed Ex having bought it from Amazon.

RichN95.

CuthbertC wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... hes-doping

Apologies that this source has already been quoted, but I've added the link.

In fairness they do use the same non-committal words as Lawton in the DM, but hey whats good for the goose 'n all that.

For the last time, where in the article does anyone claim that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches originated from the National Cycling Centre?

The evidence is that the stuff turned up there. Don't confuse evidence with proof.

blazing_saddles

CuthbertC wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... hes-doping

Apologies that this source has already been quoted, but I've added the link.

In fairness they do use the same non-committal words as Lawton in the DM, but hey whats good for the goose 'n all that.

For the last time, where in the article does anyone claim that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches originated from the National Cycling Centre?

So, you agree that this makes Lawton's claim that they were ordered, uncorroborated.
In fact, he is the one making the allegations.
Btw: How did Il Corriere’s scoop on Froome plea bargaining work out for you, afterwards?
I believe you described their uncorroborated claims as being self-evident "fact".

CuthbertC

RichN95 wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... hes-doping

Apologies that this source has already been quoted, but I've added the link.

In fairness they do use the same non-committal words as Lawton in the DM, but hey whats good for the goose 'n all that.

For the last time, where in the article does anyone claim that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches originated from the National Cycling Centre?

The evidence is that the stuff turned up there. Don't confuse evidence with proof.

Freeman and Peters have claimed that the 'stuff turned up there' because the package was delivered in error, which completely contradicts the claims made in the latest Daily Mail article:

The doctor’s explanation, according to a former head of medicine at British Cycling quoted by the Sunday Times – and corroborated to the Guardian by a source close to British Cycling and Sky with knowledge of the story – was that the package had been delivered in error.

Dr Steve Peters, who was head of medical at British Cycling and Team Sky, told the Sunday Times he and a British Cycling colleague were on site when the package arrived and that they questioned Freeman over it. It was established that the supplier had sent it by mistake and it was returned, something which he had confirmed with Freeman. Peters was, he said, satisfied that it was “an administrative error”.

CuthbertC

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... hes-doping

Apologies that this source has already been quoted, but I've added the link.

In fairness they do use the same non-committal words as Lawton in the DM, but hey whats good for the goose 'n all that.

For the last time, where in the article does anyone claim that there is evidence that an order for testosterone patches originated from the National Cycling Centre?

So, you agree that this makes Lawton's claim that they were ordered, uncorroborated.
In fact, he is the one making the allegations.
Btw: How did Il Corriere’s scoop on Froome plea bargaining work out for you, afterwards?
I believe you described their uncorroborated claims as being self-evident "fact".

You didn't answer the question, no surprise there.

kingstongraham

Blazing Saddles wrote:

CuthbertC wrote:

Then there should be an article/source that has already made the same claim in the past. Please provide a link if you can.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... hes-doping

Apologies that this source has already been quoted, but I've added the link.

In fairness they do use the same non-committal words as Lawton in the DM, but hey whats good for the goose 'n all that.

That is not the same claim as today's.

blazing_saddles

CuthbertC wrote:

You didn't answer the question, no surprise there.

Then, as you appear to have missed it, I'll answer again.
No one else has claimed they were order.
Thus making Lawson's allegations uncorroborated.
Kinda my point.

Now your turn to answer.
What did Il Corriere’s self-evident, uncorroborated "fact" turn out to be?