What sport/game does a joe vs pro stand the best chance?

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  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Surfing, plenty of amateurs make the pro ranks and spend their days surfing the worlds 'breaks.
  • drhaggis
    drhaggis Posts: 1,150
    Actually, I found a Strava ride by Marcus Burghardt, for the final day in Paris:
    https://www.strava.com/activities/10981 ... /5710/8644

    Look at Laps 2 to 7 around Champs Elisees, the known fete du cyclisme where riders are supposed to be on a pleasant ride. Burghardt is pushing 350W average for 1h. That's... well, I would have never been able to do that even if I had trained from a young age to become a journeman of cycling.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,929
    DrHaggis wrote:
    Actually, I found a Strava ride by Marcus Burghardt, for the final day in Paris:
    https://www.strava.com/activities/10981 ... /5710/8644

    Look at Laps 2 to 7 around Champs Elisees, the known fete du cyclisme where riders are supposed to be on a pleasant ride. Burghardt is pushing 350W average for 1h. That's... well, I would have never been able to do that even if I had trained from a young age to become a journeman of cycling.

    The start of the final stage may be a parade but the laps on the final circuit are anything but.
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  • DrHaggis wrote:
    Actually, I found a Strava ride by Marcus Burghardt, for the final day in Paris:
    https://www.strava.com/activities/10981 ... /5710/8644

    Look at Laps 2 to 7 around Champs Elisees, the known fete du cyclisme where riders are supposed to be on a pleasant ride. Burghardt is pushing 350W average for 1h. That's... well, I would have never been able to do that even if I had trained from a young age to become a journeman of cycling.

    Once they are on the Champs Elysee, they are starting to really move.

    Look at this:

    https://www.strava.com/activities/1079978974/overview

    What a stage that was.
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    DrHaggis wrote:
    laurentian wrote:
    There is this:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 98986.html

    . . . and also the amateur ladies marathon runner whose time in the London Marathon qualified her for the Rio Olympics I think

    So (1) he didn't make it into the top 10, (2) was hoping for a sub 2h16 time anyway, (3) is good enough to consider qualifying to the Commonwealth Games a relistic goal. That person is as close to a pro as it gets.
    okgo on here (who can shift a bit; fairly sure he holds the RP strava record) feels strongly otherwise on this point.

    So one person, in a bike-dedicated website, full of self-selected people, feels he would stay in the peloton. Even better, there are 37k PB's in strava around RP. Having a top time there means, well, you're really not average joe at all.

    However, the question is interesting. What do you need to keep up with the peloton on a flat stage? At a quick glance, Laurens Ten Dam's ride the 4th July on strava had a 209W weighted average power for 5h. That stage had 1500m of climbing over 200km, so not pan flat, but still. The problem is that the peloton might hold efforts over 400W for a few minutes. If you're dropped there, it's game over.

    What might save a good amateur rider is that, nowadays, the first breakaway is almost always allowed, and then the peloton eases at ~180W in the bunch. If you can hold that for 4h, plus 20m at 300W, then I recon you stand a chance.

    But you're probably underestimating how good a good amateur is. And there are plenty better than me!

    I think most E/1 cat riders would be fine in a flat stage, but the difference between an e/1 rider and 99% of the people riding about on the road is vast.

    The 350w comment kind of outlines that quite nicely, that would as said be out of reach of most amateurs, but would be fairly trivial for most e/1 riders (assuming they were not super super small).
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  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    I mean we're all in agreement that E/1 riders are not 'average joe', right? Up to 2 maybe, but not E/1.

    Right?
    Ben

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  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Ben6899 wrote:
    I mean we're all in agreement that E/1 riders are not 'average joe', right? Up to 2 maybe, but not E/1.

    Right?

    Depends really. Average in terms of physiology? Or in terms of willingness to put the hours in to get to and stay at that level? I got up to 2nd cat pretty easily, but found it hard to compete there as I just didn't have the time I needed to train and race. Its then a pretty huge step up to 1st cat, and again to Elite. Could I have done better? If it had ever been the main thing in my life, I reckon I might have had a chance and I suspect there are plenty of strong riders who could step up if they really pushed themselves at a youngish age. On the raw figures posted above, I could probably hang with the bunch even now on a flat stage, provided it didn't go too mental with the attacks (have been dropped in the "neutralised" zone in road races a couple of times, but then the average speed was pushing 50kph. Managed to get back on, but it wasn't a good start...).
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    In terms of both, I think Matt. Professionals have the physiology as well as the commitment to getting the best out of it.

    I think your story outlines what I was getting at. :)
    Ben

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  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    mamba80 wrote:
    Surfing, plenty of amateurs make the pro ranks and spend their days surfing the worlds 'breaks.


    Not competitively they don't, because there's a very strictly controlled tour and challenger tour.

    There's a massive difference between "lifestyle" surfers who are very good at generating a bit of PR for cash (and some have earned a fantastic living at it - Mr L Hamilton for example) and competition surfers.*


    *although it does then raise the issue of what constitutes a "professional" - in the same way that Kournikova wasn't ever a top tennis player but consistently the most money through endorsements and sponsorships.
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  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Don't you get age groupers in Triathlon placing amongst the pros at times.
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    Everyone is a pro in triathlon aren't they? ;-)
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  • okgo wrote:
    Everyone is a pro in triathlon aren't they? ;-)

    It used to be cheaper to register as a pro for Ironman if you were going to race more than two in the year than to enter them individually as an age grouper. Think they might have tightened up the guidelines since.
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Yes, but how do you know if someone has done an Ironman?
    Ben

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  • Ben6899 wrote:
    Yes, but how do you know if someone has done an Ironman?

    The same way you know if they are training for one.
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    :arrow: They'll tell you ;-)
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  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Haha, yes!

    Same wavelength.
    Ben

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  • drhaggis
    drhaggis Posts: 1,150
    *although it does then raise the issue of what constitutes a "professional" - in the same way that Kournikova wasn't ever a top tennis player but consistently the most money through endorsements and sponsorships.

    I had to go and check. I know Kournikova didn't ever win a singles title, but recalled her being a Top10. Wikipedia confirms she was Top8 in 2000. Besides, she was ranked number1 in doubles. I'd say reaching the world's Top10 ranking qualifies you as a top player, no matter the sport, even if her endorsement was due to factors other than purely her talent.

    Besides, I take my hat off to the folks in this thread that state they can sustain 350W for an hour. That's, what, a bit better than 5 W/kg? Most impressive. Not as much as Wout Poels pacing the peloton in the Alps last year, while opening a coke can with both hands and still pushing ~6 W/kg, though :twisted:
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    DrHaggis wrote:
    I take my hat off to the folks in this thread that state they can sustain 350W for an hour. That's, what, a bit better than 5 W/kg?

    Depends how heavy you are, Shirley?
    Ben

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  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    Yep. I did an FTP test, came out 375w as I recall (just shy of 400w for the 20 minutes).

    Unfortunately I weigh 120kg.....
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    First cats hanging in with the bunch for a flat stage ?

    Can't see that happening. There's a story of Cav going back home and chatted with his training pals on the Isle of Man.

    One asks how he would fare if he was riding the tour.

    Cav told him he'd be out the back before the end of the neutral section...
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    cougie wrote:
    First cats hanging in with the bunch for a flat stage ?

    Can't see that happening. There's a story of Cav going back home and chatted with his training pals on the Isle of Man.

    One asks how he would fare if he was riding the tour.

    Cav told him he'd be out the back before the end of the neutral section...

    ^this .... and didnt Cav also say, its the bike handling side too.
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    cougie wrote:
    First cats hanging in with the bunch for a flat stage ?

    Can't see that happening. There's a story of Cav going back home and chatted with his training pals on the Isle of Man.

    One asks how he would fare if he was riding the tour.

    Cav told him he'd be out the back before the end of the neutral section...
    My recollection of this particular Cav story was it was about his mate who’s a professional motorcyclist who does a lot of cyling. I thought the point wasn’t that an amateur couldn’t be fit or fast enough, but that they’d be so unused to riding in such a large tightly packed peloton, negotiating street furniture etc that they’d crash before they made it out of the neutral zone
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    Graeme_S wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    First cats hanging in with the bunch for a flat stage ?

    Can't see that happening. There's a story of Cav going back home and chatted with his training pals on the Isle of Man.

    One asks how he would fare if he was riding the tour.

    Cav told him he'd be out the back before the end of the neutral section...
    My recollection of this particular Cav story was it was about his mate who’s a professional motorcyclist who does a lot of cyling. I thought the point wasn’t that an amateur couldn’t be fit or fast enough, but that they’d be so unused to riding in such a large tightly packed peloton, negotiating street furniture etc that they’d crash before they made it out of the neutral zone

    He told Cal Crutchlow that he'd last the neutral section and then be dropped as soon as the flag went down.

    I've heard the story directly from Cal.
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  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    cougie wrote:
    First cats hanging in with the bunch for a flat stage ?

    Can't see that happening. There's a story of Cav going back home and chatted with his training pals on the Isle of Man.

    One asks how he would fare if he was riding the tour.

    Cav told him he'd be out the back before the end of the neutral section...

    A decent (there are plenty of points chaser types) 1st cat cyclist is closer in ability to Peter Sagan than most people riding round Richmond Park are to them IMO.

    Some of the flat stages are so remarkably easy really. It just so happens that some of the other stages are stupidly hard.

    It makes much more sense if he was talking about his mate who isn't a cyclist though.

    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w? Some of the avg power these guys get round stages in is comically low.
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  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    okgo wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    First cats hanging in with the bunch for a flat stage ?

    Can't see that happening. There's a story of Cav going back home and chatted with his training pals on the Isle of Man.

    One asks how he would fare if he was riding the tour.

    Cav told him he'd be out the back before the end of the neutral section...

    A decent (there are plenty of points chaser types) 1st cat cyclist is closer in ability to Peter Sagan than most people riding round Richmond Park are to them IMO.

    Some of the flat stages are so remarkably easy really. It just so happens that some of the other stages are stupidly hard.

    It makes much more sense if he was talking about his mate who isn't a cyclist though.

    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w? Some of the avg power these guys get round stages in is comically low.

    The difference between the AM and the Pro is that the Pros choose when they do that and when they want to go full chat and when they go the Ams aren't hanging on.

    I'm not quite sure why you'd think otherwise?! I could ride a lap with Cal or any other MotoGP rider and hang on if they were restricting themselves to half throttle. If they then decided they were off there'd be nothing I could do about it. (Have a look at the video of Guy Martin lapping Cadwell on a Honda AT (off-road/multi use bike) dropping a guy on a Suzuki Hayabusa, which has twice the power, better tyres, lower CoG etc.)
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  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    Yes, but some of the peloton are going full chat, to get into a move. Beyond that, sitting in the wheels at 30mph requires staggeringly little effort. We are talking about sitting in the bunch on a flat stage. I reckon that is not that difficult, and would be possible for a half decent racing cyclist. But as we have identified above, that isn't really average Joe.
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  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    And more pertinently, what does it matter if a reasonable standard of amateur could hang in the bunch on a flat stage?

    Are they going to be able to hold the wheels in the last five k while everyone is drilling it for position?

    Are they going to be able to outsprint even third tier pro sprinters?

    Hell no.

    The only chance is if they manage to avoid a big crash, like this basically - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAADWfJO2qM
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    Exactly right, but just entertaining the thread title a bit.

    Sprinting a weird one. You can find some sprinters probably even at very low levels that have the power, but getting to the place to use it is one of the hardest things in pro cycling.
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  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    okgo wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    First cats hanging in with the bunch for a flat stage ?

    Can't see that happening. There's a story of Cav going back home and chatted with his training pals on the Isle of Man.

    One asks how he would fare if he was riding the tour.

    Cav told him he'd be out the back before the end of the neutral section...

    A decent (there are plenty of points chaser types) 1st cat cyclist is closer in ability to Peter Sagan than most people riding round Richmond Park are to them IMO.

    Some of the flat stages are so remarkably easy really. It just so happens that some of the other stages are stupidly hard.

    It makes much more sense if he was talking about his mate who isn't a cyclist though.

    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w? Some of the avg power these guys get round stages in is comically low.

    The difference between the AM and the Pro is that the Pros choose when they do that and when they want to go full chat and when they go the Ams aren't hanging on.

    I'm not quite sure why you'd think otherwise?! I could ride a lap with Cal or any other MotoGP rider and hang on if they were restricting themselves to half throttle. If they then decided they were off there'd be nothing I could do about it. (Have a look at the video of Guy Martin lapping Cadwell on a Honda AT (off-road/multi use bike) dropping a guy on a Suzuki Hayabusa, which has twice the power, better tyres, lower CoG etc.)


    sorry but no way - Crutchlow would just bugger off within the first two corners. McPint would take one. Martin wouldn't enter the race as there are no tv cameras present.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    You really need to read stuff before mounting that high horse Mr Falle!

    You've just confirmed what I wrote!
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