What sport/game does a joe vs pro stand the best chance?

1234689

Comments

  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    okgo wrote:
    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w?

    Nothing.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    The bunch will drag you along quite nicely but even on lazy days there will be parts when it's flat out. That's when mortals would go out the back.
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    Re-read it yet Matthew?! ;)

    Here's a little treat for you. The first lap is obviously just warming tyres because it's fair to say that he f&&ks off pretty quickly on the second.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSBR5DrYdMw
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • drhaggis
    drhaggis Posts: 1,150
    okgo wrote:
    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w? Some of the avg power these guys get round stages in is comically low.

    What is 200W? 20 mph on the flat on a calm day on your own?

    OK, so I've only been cycling for a year, and most of it has been commuting (plus a couple of sportives here and there), and have not trained. Even if I could hold 200 W for 1h (don't have a power meter), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to hold it for 5h. Based on my anecdotical experience, my hunch is that 200W FTP is roughly the power that an average adult man under 40 can achieve with "mild" training. Some sort of hcp 18 in Golf. I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, so feel free to correct me.

    Then, based on average power, yes, if you trained, and you were averge or better, you could possibly stay in the bunch, in a non-disputed flat stage, or in the farce that was Urdax in the 2016 Vuelta, or in the grupetto to Formigal two days later. After all, Jesus Hernandez and Antonio Nibali do too.

    However, there is only one thing that allows you to stay in the bunch: slipstreaming. If the bunch suddenly happens to ride hard for a while, and you can't follow, it's all over (ask Andrew Talansky). Even if you could hold the "reasonable" figure of 350W for 5 minutes, if your FTP is 200W and you're far from the line, I'd say the odds of you (the 200W rider) sticking with the bunch are slim.

    Again, I don't have your cycling experience nor your ability, okgo, so please correct me if wrong.
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    DrHaggis wrote:
    okgo wrote:
    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w? Some of the avg power these guys get round stages in is comically low.

    What is 200W? 20 mph on the flat on a calm day on your own?

    OK, so I've only been cycling for a year, and most of it has been commuting (plus a couple of sportives here and there), and have not trained. Even if I could hold 200 W for 1h (don't have a power meter), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to hold it for 5h. Based on my anecdotical experience, my hunch is that 200W FTP is roughly the power that an average adult man under 40 can achieve with "mild" training. Some sort of hcp 18 in Golf. I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, so feel free to correct me.

    Then, based on average power, yes, if you trained, and you were averge or better, you could possibly stay in the bunch, in a non-disputed flat stage, or in the farce that was Urdax in the 2016 Vuelta, or in the grupetto to Formigal two days later. After all, Jesus Hernandez and Antonio Nibali do too.

    However, there is only one thing that allows you to stay in the bunch: slipstreaming. If the bunch suddenly happens to ride hard for a while, and you can't follow, it's all over (ask Andrew Talansky). Even if you could hold the "reasonable" figure of 350W for 5 minutes, if your FTP is 200W and you're far from the line, I'd say the odds of you (the 200W rider) sticking with the bunch are slim.

    Again, I don't have your cycling experience nor your ability, okgo, so please correct me if wrong.

    I think probably average joe has no hope of staying in a peloton of pro riders, but someone not too far above that might be ok on a flat easy one.

    That said, 200w I would also say is probably way below what someone could achieve with any training full stop. Let alone 'mild training'.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,585
    okgo wrote:
    DrHaggis wrote:
    okgo wrote:
    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w? Some of the avg power these guys get round stages in is comically low.

    What is 200W? 20 mph on the flat on a calm day on your own?

    OK, so I've only been cycling for a year, and most of it has been commuting (plus a couple of sportives here and there), and have not trained. Even if I could hold 200 W for 1h (don't have a power meter), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to hold it for 5h. Based on my anecdotical experience, my hunch is that 200W FTP is roughly the power that an average adult man under 40 can achieve with "mild" training. Some sort of hcp 18 in Golf. I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, so feel free to correct me.

    Then, based on average power, yes, if you trained, and you were averge or better, you could possibly stay in the bunch, in a non-disputed flat stage, or in the farce that was Urdax in the 2016 Vuelta, or in the grupetto to Formigal two days later. After all, Jesus Hernandez and Antonio Nibali do too.

    However, there is only one thing that allows you to stay in the bunch: slipstreaming. If the bunch suddenly happens to ride hard for a while, and you can't follow, it's all over (ask Andrew Talansky). Even if you could hold the "reasonable" figure of 350W for 5 minutes, if your FTP is 200W and you're far from the line, I'd say the odds of you (the 200W rider) sticking with the bunch are slim.

    Again, I don't have your cycling experience nor your ability, okgo, so please correct me if wrong.

    I think probably average joe has no hope of staying in a peloton of pro riders.

    That said, 200w I would also say is probably way below what someone could achieve with any training full stop. Let alone 'mild training'.

    Yes.

    With all due respect OKGO, but you ain't that typical on a bike :P.

    Compared to most people who cycle i'm pretty fast (rather than compared to the people who post on here), and I was top 10ish % of ride London, which is probably a decent cross section of people who ride.

    It's partly my size, but even so, I don't think I'd be able to hold wheels for 4-5hrs in a Tour peloton.

    I struggled holding the wheels of the faster groups in Ride London without going too deep for a 5hr ride. Sure, I could ride in those groups for an hour, and even take a turn on the front every now and then ,but by the third hour I'd be royally pooped.

    Now I imagine the Tour peloton is a step up again.
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    okgo wrote:
    DrHaggis wrote:
    okgo wrote:
    Honest question - what is hard about riding along at 200w? Some of the avg power these guys get round stages in is comically low.

    What is 200W? 20 mph on the flat on a calm day on your own?

    OK, so I've only been cycling for a year, and most of it has been commuting (plus a couple of sportives here and there), and have not trained. Even if I could hold 200 W for 1h (don't have a power meter), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to hold it for 5h. Based on my anecdotical experience, my hunch is that 200W FTP is roughly the power that an average adult man under 40 can achieve with "mild" training. Some sort of hcp 18 in Golf. I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, so feel free to correct me.

    Then, based on average power, yes, if you trained, and you were averge or better, you could possibly stay in the bunch, in a non-disputed flat stage, or in the farce that was Urdax in the 2016 Vuelta, or in the grupetto to Formigal two days later. After all, Jesus Hernandez and Antonio Nibali do too.

    However, there is only one thing that allows you to stay in the bunch: slipstreaming. If the bunch suddenly happens to ride hard for a while, and you can't follow, it's all over (ask Andrew Talansky). Even if you could hold the "reasonable" figure of 350W for 5 minutes, if your FTP is 200W and you're far from the line, I'd say the odds of you (the 200W rider) sticking with the bunch are slim.

    Again, I don't have your cycling experience nor your ability, okgo, so please correct me if wrong.

    I think probably average joe has no hope of staying in a peloton of pro riders.

    That said, 200w I would also say is probably way below what someone could achieve with any training full stop. Let alone 'mild training'.

    Yes.

    With all due respect OKGO, but you ain't that typical on a bike :P.

    Compared to most people who cycle i'm pretty fast (rather than compared to the people who post on here), and I was top 10ish % of ride London, which is probably a decent cross section of people who ride.

    It's partly my size, but even so, I don't think I'd be able to hold wheels for 4-5hrs in a Tour peloton.

    I struggled holding the wheels of the faster groups in Ride London without going too deep for a 5hr ride. Sure, I could ride in those groups for an hour, and even take a turn on the front every now and then ,but by the third hour I'd be royally pooped.

    Now I imagine the Tour peloton is a step up again.

    We are straying a bit, but its interesting nonetheless.

    You are an outlier because you're tiny, which isn't going to be good on the flat!

    RideLondon was about 2 notches below a decent 2/3 race IMO (and obvs I know as myself and Arlen managed to ride away from it and stay away from it for the last 20 miles and finish with the fastest time of 17,000 people. But I've always said its an easy ego boost for the masses who surf a bunch for 100 miles round flat surrey) and not even close to a nat b UK race, which are not even close to a premier calendar race which are not even close to a 2nd rate WT field which are not even close to a proper WT event that good riders bother to enter.

    That said, the tour flat stages are treated as rest days by many of the peloton (apart from near the end/beginning) - they're super easy vs a 1 day race.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    And that bears no relevance to the OT. Hence my posts.
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    And that bears no relevance to the OT. Hence my posts.

    Cheer up.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    Watching her shot at 38 seconds it beggars belief that they both got holes in one in consecutive shots on the same hole...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england ... -berkshire
  • And that bears no relevance to the OT. Hence my posts.

    The OT was about an event where a solid amateur could keep up with a low level pro...
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    And that bears no relevance to the OT. Hence my posts.

    The OT was about an event where a solid amateur could keep up with a low level pro...

    And then specifically discounted the circumstances that were then described.
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • And that bears no relevance to the OT. Hence my posts.

    The OT was about an event where a solid amateur could keep up with a low level pro...

    And then specifically discounted the circumstances that were then described.

    No, the original post specifically included the circumstances that were described as a likely answer.
    Cycling? For a flat stage a Cat 2 or 1 rider could hang in a peloton.

    Happy to help.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,585
    I guess the challenge for cycling is that to be below a certain level is to be out of the competition.

    In football, for example, however bad you are, assuming you don’t get sent off or injured, you’re on the pitch for the period of the game.
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    Worst?
    ........

    Cycling? For a flat stage a Cat 2 or 1 rider could hang in a peloton. But as soon as there are a few hills.........forget it. Dropped. The surges are just too high and too long.

    Struggling to get that far down the post?!
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • Worst?
    ........

    Cycling? For a flat stage a Cat 2 or 1 rider could hang in a peloton. But as soon as there are a few hills.........forget it. Dropped. The surges are just too high and too long.

    Struggling to get that far down the post?!

    No, just left out the bits that weren't relevant. There aren't hills in a flat stage.
  • But the answer is football.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    There are hills in flat stages. Just that they're not hilly compared to an alp.
  • natrix
    natrix Posts: 1,111
    Banger racing
    ~~~~~~Sustrans - Join the Movement~~~~~~
  • Richj
    Richj Posts: 240
    speaking to a local domestic pro recently, he explained its much harder to hang in the bunch at the end of a flat stage than I realised. He wasn't sure he'd be able to hang in there, which I guess why he's an Elite domestic pro on a UK team and not World Tour.

    Trying to hold a wheel after 4+ hours racing inside the last 10km as the pace ramps up to 60kph....not as easy as it looks on TV. Let alone being good enough to actually drive the pace at that speed or compete in a sprint.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    I guess the challenge for cycling is that to be below a certain level is to be out of the competition.

    In football, for example, however bad you are, assuming you don’t get sent off or injured, you’re on the pitch for the period of the game.

    Unless you're Ali Dia, the Southampton sub who got substituted in a Premier League game after convincing manager Graeme Souness that he was a cousin of FIFA World Player of the Year and Ballon d'Or winner George Weah.
  • voodooman
    voodooman Posts: 183
    In a team sport it's more likely but...

    Cricket: in 2003 I was part of a team that beat Lashings, and they had 10 ex-test players. But on our side every single player had either been a pro, or would be a year or two later. Even within the Lashings side it was noticeable that Mark Waugh was on a completely different level, and he'd retired a year before. So we won but we definitely weren't average Joe's.

    To give an example though, when playing county cricket I was no 11 (sometimes as high as 9 at a push), but when I stopped playing semi-pro (in 2015; 20 years after retiring, and I was just a 2-bit county pro) I would bat around 5 or 6 and aim for a few centuries a season. And that was in ECB premier gold leagues, with plenty of young quick bowlers around.

    Cycling, not a chance. I'm fairly fit so thought I'd give cross a go. In my first race I came 47th out of 49, even though my ftp is 320W. Being 6'6" and 103 kg partly to blame, but bloody hell it was quick. One of my colleagues asked how far away from pro standard I'd be (he hasn't a clue) so i said about as far away from playing premier league as he is (he plays 5 a side on fridays before hitting the bar).
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,320
    natrix wrote:
    Banger racing

    Could you tell the difference between a top banger racer's banging compared to Joe's banger banging?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,929
    If we're talking golf are we allowing for the handicap system?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Wheelspinner
    Wheelspinner Posts: 6,560
    If we're talking golf are we allowing for the handicap system?
    I think golf is a chance here, as long as we're talking a decent "joe".

    In an interview a while ago, golf professional Craig Parry noted that he lived in one of those Florida gated communities with a bunch of other sports professionals (Isleworth I think, or similar) and used to play regular rounds with a couple of the Aussie tennis pros at the time - Jason Stoltenberg and Todd Woodbridge. Said it was not uncommon for them to beat him off scratch.
    Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,320
    edited October 2017
    If we're talking golf are we allowing for the handicap system?
    I think golf is a chance here, as long as we're talking a decent "joe".

    In an interview a while ago, golf professional Craig Parry noted that he lived in one of those Florida gated communities with a bunch of other sports professionals (Isleworth I think, or similar) and used to play regular rounds with a couple of the Aussie tennis pros at the time - Jason Stoltenberg and Todd Woodbridge. Said it was not uncommon for them to beat him off scratch.

    But professional sports people are often good at other sports. After all, it's the inherent professionalism in them that makes them good: mentality, determination, focus, balance, attitude etc.
    Stephen Hendry is a single figure handicapped golfer.

    I had a kiddie I coached table tennis to. He was good at football and his main sport is Scrambling (Moto). His adaptability to table tennis was unbelievable. I thought I would loose him to football but instead he's just doing Moto X.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • U
    If we're talking golf are we allowing for the handicap system?
    I think golf is a chance here, as long as we're talking a decent "joe".

    In an interview a while ago, golf professional Craig Parry noted that he lived in one of those Florida gated communities with a bunch of other sports professionals (Isleworth I think, or similar) and used to play regular rounds with a couple of the Aussie tennis pros at the time - Jason Stoltenberg and Todd Woodbridge. Said it was not uncommon for them to beat him off scratch.

    A scratch golfer is in the top 1% who play the game
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,320
    A scratch golfer is in the top 1% who play the game

    So what you are saying is that a scratch golfer is not an average 'Joe'. Agreed.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • voodooman
    voodooman Posts: 183
    Golf is only a chance because there are loads of pros in other sports who like golf and have the time, inclination and determination (+ competitiveness, they're pros for a reason) to be very good at it. I hate golf with a passion really, but even I can place well in long driving competitions (tall with long levers + the ball is still - how difficult is that!) with a bit of a genetic advantage.

    Another example, one of the highest age graded runners at Southampton Parkrun is Richard Nerurkar who ran 16:16 aged 50! That's just insane. In any endurance event, a joe has no chance. None.
  • voodooman
    voodooman Posts: 183
    A more interesting question would be what handicap is needed to balance out in a sport combining endurance and technical ability. For this I think probably squash. I don't reckon a joe would win a point in a 1000 / 10000 against one of the world tour pros. Even mishits would be chased down.