4DP. Discuss

joenobody

philthy3 wrote:

Way to go, you'll hate it! :-D

No doubt - with less than a week since the first try...

I tried to do Mini Blender this morning, but things are playing up still despite a strong BTE signal. After trying to get things going three times, I gave up.

This is my general concern about virtual training systems like this - if the tech doesn't work then you're paying for nothing. Or, at least, paying for something you could probably do for free, which is to come up with a decent turbo training session.

I was profiled as a sprinter, but I'm carrying a bit of winter excess still at the moment. Oddly, when my fighting weight is compared with the same scores (which would obviously increase the w/kg result) I come out as a climber. Go figure? I might try and do the individual tests and plot them myself to see what it gives. A 5s and 5m test and a 1m and 20m test the following day after periods of warm up.

I'm very interested to see how it profiles me as I'm very much a slightly-less than average cyclist across the board

StillGoing

JoeNobody wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

.

I tried to do Mini Blender this morning, but things are playing up still despite a strong BTE signal. After trying to get things going three times, I gave up.

This is my general concern about virtual training systems like this - if the tech doesn't work then you're paying for nothing. Or, at least, paying for something you could probably do for free, which is to come up with a decent turbo training session.

At least with a monthly subscription, if it doesn't work, you can cancel it without still forking out for a 12 month plan.

sir_les

I do love Sufferfest, but the thing I don't get about 4DP is that you are prompted to train your weaknesses (for me it was sprinting). Well surely it depends on your ability and goals you have for the year. If I just want to do club rides and sportives, then sprinting is not really a concern for me, so why bother training it to increase?

StillGoing

After reading Alex's reply in another thread re training for weaknesses and how it may not be the right thing to do if you have the wrong genetic make up, I've grown more sceptical about 4DP. I think its worth doing FF for the novelty factor and see what it profiles you as, but once I've done my own test, broken into two parts, I'll have something to compare it with.

stevie63

On the flip side to alex’s point of view, Neal Henderson who’s own test the 4DP test is based on has stated that for most time poor cyclists who don’t have the time for lots of winter base miles training your weakness gives you the most bang for your buck.

For example if you have a VO2 weakness this will also limit how far you can push your threshold up. With regards to a sprinting weakness there are times even on sportives when you need to use your NM system so training this will be a benefit.

Of course the other benefit of identifying your levels is the workout can then be tailored to you. For example my 5 minute number is greater than 130% of my threshold. This means that where most VO2 sessions call for intervals at 115%, I would find them a bit too easy so it gets me to target closer to 130% on those types of sessions which would be far too high for someone with a vo2 weakness.

I think though the most important point to any training system is that it engages you to use it. For me Sufferfest works, for others it might be something else.

joenobody

philthy3 wrote:

At least with a monthly subscription, if it doesn't work, you can cancel it without still forking out for a 12 month plan.

True enough. Anyway, got it done again tonight and it worked. I even noticed where in the app it was telling me the speed sensor was recording :shock: I came out as a rouleur which, on balance, is probably fair - I'd say I was equally crap across the board Gives me a direction to head in, so it's all good now.

StillGoing

I've done an independent test this evening and achieved higher results, but basically the same profile; sprinter and crap Vo2. My 1m anaerobic power is pathetic, but the 5s power is very good and way better than either the 5m power or FTP. Looks like I'll be continuing with the Sufferfest program for a while yet. Might have to turn the intensity down from 100% for a few sessions though.

scott_w1987

On the subject above regarding training weaknesses even if they aren't really what you need, you'd be surprised how much better something like sprint strength makes if you are already pretty good at other areas.

Last year before 4DP was around and I was mid road race season I got advice from a local elite rider to work on my short sprint efforts because I knew it was a weakness I had. So on top of my standard 12 hour outdoor week doing chaingangs or other solo training I'd be doing one or two sessions of violator/half is easy or even the shovel(when it got released) every week when I had time/could fit them in. The difference it made to my riding in general was easily noticeable to me and others I regularly ride with. I felt fitter and stronger on longer rides, hills, sprints. It gave me fantastic form and that was me already being a podium contender at Reg A level in most races I was doing.

So I'd strongly recommend focusing on doing at least one or two workouts in the areas it suggests and then maybe doing every other or every other second workout as a threshold/sweet spot workout just to keep on top of things.

mw22

Well its approaching turbo season and first Full Frontal test since about January. 3rd FF in total.

Had never been happy with spring results before, mainly cause never felt had the right gear/cadence/speed at the start of the sprint. Also hoped FTP would increase to after some solid rides in August...
5 sec = 762 (up 162)
1 min = 436 (up 54)
5 min = 311 (up 36)
20 min = 259 (up 25)

Felt absolutely broken going into the final 1 min test and the hit it hard and fade approach wasn't pretty.

Absolutely delighted with the gains... absolutely terrified with how hard some of the sessions are now going to be. I'm not going near violator!

Anybody else had the hour of pain after summer?

dannbodge

I'll be doing it in October.
Got a few more academy workouts to complete in Zwift first, then I'm going to do it.

Hopefully going to run zwift at the same time, so If anything changes in my power profile, it will update at the same time.

StillGoing

Dannbodge wrote:

I'll be doing it in October.
Got a few more academy workouts to complete in Zwift first, then I'm going to do it.

Hopefully going to run zwift at the same time, so If anything changes in my power profile, it will update at the same time.

Why are you running Zwift instead of the Sufferfest program to build on your strengths and improve your weaknesses? If you've a free Training Peaks account, the Sufferfest programs can be downloaded to the calendar giving you a more in depth program and specific sessions to do.

dannbodge

philthy3 wrote:

Dannbodge wrote:

I'll be doing it in October.
Got a few more academy workouts to complete in Zwift first, then I'm going to do it.

Hopefully going to run zwift at the same time, so If anything changes in my power profile, it will update at the same time.

Why are you running Zwift instead of the Sufferfest program to build on your strengths and improve your weaknesses? If you've a free Training Peaks account, the Sufferfest programs can be downloaded to the calendar giving you a more in depth program and specific sessions to do.

I'm not. I just use Zwift for their workouts, I don't focus on anything in particular (well mainly V02 as my local climbs are 3-8 mins in length)

I just want to run Zwift so if I set a new power at any stage it's recorded in Zwift too.

I only want to do the 4DP to get the rider profile really. Although I already kind of know what I am.

MiddleRinger

mw22 wrote:

Anybody else had the hour of pain after summer?

Well not quite after summer (different hemisphere) but I did the 4DP test about a month ago and absolutely gave it everything, that final 1-minute smash was painful. I got everything out and cramped in the final couple of seconds. My results were fairly in line with what I was expecting, low 5-minute power compared to my FTP and suffer during repeated efforts.

About four weeks into one of the suggested training programs (all loaded into Final Surge). The sessions sometimes look impossible, but are always right on that edge! Seems to be doing me good. The Shovel has been the toughest video - mentally and physically - so far.

mw22

MiddleRinger wrote:

mw22 wrote:

Anybody else had the hour of pain after summer?

Well not quite after summer (different hemisphere) but I did the 4DP test about a month ago and absolutely gave it everything, that final 1-minute smash was painful. I got everything out and cramped in the final couple of seconds. My results were fairly in line with what I was expecting, low 5-minute power compared to my FTP and suffer during repeated efforts.

About four weeks into one of the suggested training programs (all loaded into Final Surge). The sessions sometimes look impossible, but are always right on that edge! Seems to be doing me good. The Shovel has been the toughest video - mentally and physically - so far.

I felt a cramp twinge on the first 5 second sprint... which obviously did wonders for my confidence knowing what was still to come. Fortunately that was the only twinge.
Yeah I cant believe how much the 1 minute hurt.. and how long it lasted - it was definitely more than a minute

blackfly

I'm going to re-do my 4DP later this month--already dreading it.

I only started training properly at the start of the year and the progress has been pretty good, albeit from an embarrassingly low start point.

MiddleRinger, if you think The Shovel is tough you have a treat on the app from today. The Tool Shed mash-up of The Shovel and Nine Hammers (my toughest)--I am not looking forward to it.

w00dster

Has any one done Violator?
I know my weakness was recovering from efforts, but honestly Violator to me was ridiculous. I managed the first set of 26 max effort sprints, but only just. Recovered and started the next set, but managed four sets, 5 second max effort sprint but with only 15 second recovery - after 26 sets of max effort. Not only was it incredibly hard, mentally looking at the remaining 35 sets still to complete was just as tough.

I normally find the workouts hard, but can still complete them. This one just no chance. 64 max effort sprints?!?

mw22

Sprinting is my weakness - but on previous 4dp tests my numbers reflected it... so in theory it shouldnt be any harder than any of the others.
But like you, I failed - probably around the same point.
Since I went to a smart trainer its the only video I've failed to complete, the others I often feel aren't achievable but somehow you get through it. Not violator.

When I did the tour earlier in the year it finished with The Kitchen Sink - the violator bits in that almost finished me off, its the only bit of the 3 hours I can remember.

I've not been near it since... and probably won't. I can't see how I would finish (and its not that important to me, nothing I do requires such regularly surges. If I can build just power for 1 or 2 then I'm happy). I also don't find it helps with ANY lag on the turbo, it only needs to hold the power for a second or more and that can be half your recovery.

stevie63

w00dster wrote:

Has any one done Violator?
I know my weakness was recovering from efforts, but honestly Violator to me was ridiculous. I managed the first set of 26 max effort sprints, but only just. Recovered and started the next set, but managed four sets, 5 second max effort sprint but with only 15 second recovery - after 26 sets of max effort. Not only was it incredibly hard, mentally looking at the remaining 35 sets still to complete was just as tough.

I normally find the workouts hard, but can still complete them. This one just no chance. 64 max effort sprints?!?

I can manage the first 2 sets, but the last set with equal length work to recovery ratios always gets a bit messy

mw22

Just checked - I lasted 45 of the 64 minutes - pretty sure that just takes me somewhere into the 2nd set. Tho looking at the breakdown It's the mega short recoveries I remember... so suprised it would be midway into the 2nd set rather than just at the start.

Not inspiring me to have another crack looking at it

stevie63

I just checked the last time I did it, I managed 60 out of the 64 sprints with the 4 missed intervals happening near the start of the 3rd set.

mw22

stevie63 wrote:

I just checked the last time I did it, I managed 60 out of the 64 sprints with the 4 missed intervals happening near the start of the 3rd set.

Fair play - I can't even comprehend that!

Had to double check... and just like W00dster... well not even that good, I failed after 3 reps of the 2nd set. Knew it was the short recoveries, how the hell you do the 3rd set with a 1/3 of that recovery time :oops:

Deffo not going near it... ever

w00dster

Glad its not just me who finds Violator tough, well done Stevie.
I'll be giving it another go soon. The only thing now is that I know how tough it is, I may well end up not going max effort on each sprint, so managing each spring to just below max effort. Being someone who races (or tries to), its the constant recovery from sprints that get me, so I do need to improve them for next season. My FTP is generally acceptable for my weight (ish), I'm fine with hills and no problem with long fast rides, I just struggle with the constant accelerations and small amounts of recovery followed by another hard acceleration.

stevie63

As long as you have given your all then you have hit the purpose of the workout, in the sufferfest group on Facebook someone esle had felt disappointed with their performance on Violator and Mac Cassin (one of the sufferfest coaches) posted the following:

"Violator is a tricky one, and we really do recommend you never do it in ERG mode.
That's mainly because the only goal is to go flat out during each effort, regardless of what power you actually hit.
It would be equally as "bad" to hit all targets in Violator without really digging deep as it is not to hit the targets at all.
Most importantly there isn't a rider out there who has never had an off or sub-par training day. That is simply a sign you really are pushing your body to its limits, which is the entire goal of training."

w00dster

Thanks for posting that Stevie. Kind of makes me feel a bit better.
I go max out on the efforts, from memory the app says I need to hit about 780 Watts, but I just hit it as hard as I can, tends to be have the first few sprints over 900 watts, then averaging back out to above 800 for 15 sets or so, then the last two or three I'm able to pick up again knowing I have a break coming.
This is going to be my training session on Friday, so will complete the entire work out but not worrying too much about being able to hit in excess of 700 watts and just keep doing max effort even when I'm barely registering about 300 watts.

bvduck

w00dster wrote:

....frommemory the app says I need to hit about 780 Watts, but I just hit it as hard as I can, tends to be have the first few sprints over 900 watts....

Hi guys - David from The Sufferfest here. Violator is a BEAST. And that's particularly true if you have a relatively low Neuromuscular Power (5 second)(NM) and Anaerobic Capacity (1 minute)(AC). If you were doing Violator in the days when our workouts were based on FTP (or any sprint workout on any platform that's based on FTP only), then you would have felt that the workout was impossible -- because FTP based platforms (like The Sufferfest used to be) have to GUESS what you're capable of and would overestimate the power you can hit.

If you've done our 4DP and you have low NM and AC, then The Sufferfest app knows this and sets the targets to more realistic levels based on your actual capability (not guessing). I'm not saying that Violator is going to be easy, but it will certainly be more 'manageable' for you than before.

mw22

bvduck wrote:

The Sufferfest app knows this and sets the targets to more realistic levels based on your actual capability (not guessing). I'm not saying that Violator is going to be easy, but it will certainly be more 'manageable' for you than before.

Can you let it know I'm not actually capable and it needs to set mine lower, alot lower

dannbodge

Did my first 4DP today.
Pretty happy with my numbers. All of them were pretty close to my Zwift power PBs.

Was an interesting test, felt like I struggled with the 20 mins but got a higher FTP than normal.

scott_w1987

When I was going my best last year and the weather allowed I was doing all outdoor training apart from one session of violator, revolver or shovel every week. Crazy how much noticeable difference it made. I have only done one Regional A race in March this year after a structured winter, came 2nd, got annoyed and gave up. Not really done any turbo training all year as the weather has been so good, been slowly getting worse all year

scott_w1987

stevie63 wrote:

w00dster wrote:

Has any one done Violator?
I know my weakness was recovering from efforts, but honestly Violator to me was ridiculous. I managed the first set of 26 max effort sprints, but only just. Recovered and started the next set, but managed four sets, 5 second max effort sprint but with only 15 second recovery - after 26 sets of max effort. Not only was it incredibly hard, mentally looking at the remaining 35 sets still to complete was just as tough.

I normally find the workouts hard, but can still complete them. This one just no chance. 64 max effort sprints?!?

I can manage the first 2 sets, but the last set with equal length work to recovery ratios always gets a bit messy

Yeah - sometimes the last set can be very hard. If it could manage that well I'd sometimes just go back and do the full middle set again then throw in the last 3 or 4 same ratio recovery intervals right at the end or after a short recovery.

EBEB

I did the 4DP assessment again yesterday. I’d like to share my mistake: in order to do the workouts on aerobars (which I thought would make me quicker on aerobars) I decided to do Full Frontal on aerobars. Mistake; both sprints a 5 minute interval cause less damage and 20 minute one becomes relatively easy.

Can’t pretend I know what the answer is, as if I don’t do this then the sprints/VO2 intervals are too hard and my aim is to be better on aerobars rather than numeric goals, but my way didn’t work.