4DP. Discuss

daniel_b
daniel_b Posts: 11,652
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/ftp-is-dead-the-sufferfest-launches-4dp-training-51020/

Looks good to me on the face of it. Wonder if all platforms might consider something similar.
Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 18
«1345

Comments

  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    I imagine it will boost sufferfest subs no end until the competition catch on ..... its made me want it and I am only rated a medium on the gullability/advertisers dream scale
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    It's not exactly old hat... but it is nothing that you cannot do yourself.
    It certainly pays dividends for example in Zwift to have top end 5 minute power... a well adjusted smart trainer to boost 15/30 second power spikes... less so to have worries about standard FTP.. except to get under race category limits.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    fat daddy wrote:
    I imagine it will boost sufferfest subs no end until the competition catch on ..... its made me want it and I am only rated a medium on the gullability/advertisers dream scale

    ^^ this. I suspect this has more to do with SF regaining some of the market share it has lost against the likes of zwift, TR, etc..
  • bsharp77
    bsharp77 Posts: 533
    Imposter wrote:
    fat daddy wrote:
    I imagine it will boost sufferfest subs no end until the competition catch on ..... its made me want it and I am only rated a medium on the gullability/advertisers dream scale

    ^^ this. I suspect this has more to do with SF regaining some of the market share it has lost against the likes of zwift, TR, etc..

    Totally agree - it looks very good, and they have released it at the perfect time.
    I'm just hoping for a few fresh videos now, especially for sweet spot training.
  • cgfw201
    cgfw201 Posts: 674
    Some funny comments on that article.

    Looks like a sensible way to train, and most importantly makes it easy for consumers. Lot of people there saying WKO4 and/or reading the Training Bible gets you the same place. Point of this is to avoid those extremely detailed and intense ways of training with power.
  • bsharp77
    bsharp77 Posts: 533
    cgfw201 wrote:
    Some funny comments on that article.

    Coggan certainly seems to have his knickers in a twist about it.... :roll:
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,652
    Ha, hadn't seen the comments!

    Looks very interesting, especially for those of us who have little in the way of time to analyse and fine tunre training plans, and methods - you could call it a lazy mans way out I guess, but with a young family, I'll take any shortcuts I can get.
    Not going to abandon TR that easily though, will wait for a bit and see what the reviews are like - I could always suspend my TR membership, and try SF for a few months I guess, costs look similar.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • I did the Full frontal test this afternoon. It put me within 1 point of my TR FTP so all things being equal I’m going to stick with TR and my previously purchased SF vids in PerfPRO, which for me is the perfect combination.
    Not knocking the SF App in any way, but it’s a lot less detailed than TR AND PP interface.
    I like to see stuff happening as well as the vids and the line along the workout with not much else doesn’t work for me. But each to their own.
    I was also a bit surprised that the FF test had no video on launch? Seems a bit of a slip up, it was very boring trying to stay on it just watching the line!
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,652
    I did the Full frontal test this afternoon. It put me within 1 point of my TR FTP so all things being equal I’m going to stick with TR and my previously purchased SF vids in PerfPRO, which for me is the perfect combination.
    Not knocking the SF App in any way, but it’s a lot less detailed than TR AND PP interface.
    I like to see stuff happening as well as the vids and the line along the workout with not much else doesn’t work for me. But each to their own.
    I was also a bit surprised that the FF test had no video on launch? Seems a bit of a slip up, it was very boring trying to stay on it just watching the line!

    Thankyou for that fast review vm. Have had a good 9 months with TR, so will stick with what I have enjoyed and has bought me results.
    This development may tweak the way TR do things anyway, but I know they won't rush it.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • supermurph09
    supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    cgfw201 wrote:
    Some funny comments on that article.

    Looks like a sensible way to train, and most importantly makes it easy for consumers. Lot of people there saying WKO4 and/or reading the Training Bible gets you the same place. Point of this is to avoid those extremely detailed and intense ways of training with power.

    This is spot on. Coggan has obviously flipped his lid but in fairness he does come across this way on most forums / comments pages. Understandably he would be unhappy if Sufferfest are claiming these are all their concepts, which they aren't but as you say, SF are simplifying the process which should be applauded.

    I'm a long time user of Training Peaks and owner of the Training and Racing with a power meter but I couldn't absorb the info in the book very well, it just doesn't suit my learning style.

    It's going to be interesting to watch this play out, I will be having a go at the full frontal though and seeing if the benefits come.
  • bvduck
    bvduck Posts: 44
    I did the Full frontal test this afternoon. It put me within 1 point of my TR FTP so all things being equal I’m going to stick with TR and my previously purchased SF vids in PerfPRO, which for me is the perfect combination.
    Not knocking the SF App in any way, but it’s a lot less detailed than TR AND PP interface.
    I like to see stuff happening as well as the vids and the line along the workout with not much else doesn’t work for me. But each to their own.
    I was also a bit surprised that the FF test had no video on launch? Seems a bit of a slip up, it was very boring trying to stay on it just watching the line!

    Hi there Vinny - David from The Sufferfest here. Thanks for giving our app a try. Much appreciated. Don't forget that 4DP is about more than your FTP -- it's also about your Neuromuscular, Anaerobic and Maximum Aerobic Power. Those four things together are then used to drive the workout targets for you across our entire range of workouts -- and that's the really special thing about 4DP that you won't find elsewhere. Workouts that truly match your strengths and weaknesses across a range of efforts and that give you the exact right training stimulus. This video has a little more about that: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowt ... _P6456277/

    That's really strange that you didn't have a video to watch -- there is defo one there (we worked hard on it!). I'm really sorry about that. f you could drop us a note, should you wish, on theminions@thesufferfest.com we could help you out and see what the problem is.

    All the best, David (david@thesufferfest.com)
    David McQuillen, Chief Suffering Officer
    http://www.thesufferfest.com
    @thesufferfest
  • bvduck
    bvduck Posts: 44
    Hi Everyone. Thanks so much for the interest in what we're doing with 4DP. Some of you are keen, others are skeptical and others still are quite happy with what they have. That's all great and we're happy to have added another option to the range of things you can do to make training indoors more effective and enterPAINing. If anyone has any questions about 4DP or our app in general, I'm happy to answer here or via email (david@thesufferfest.com). Otherwise, I don't want to intrude and will quietly disappear unless anyone tags me with a question. Thanks, David
    David McQuillen, Chief Suffering Officer
    http://www.thesufferfest.com
    @thesufferfest
  • Websta24
    Websta24 Posts: 162
    I went and activated the 7 day free trial with the Sufferfest last night as i was intrigued by 4DP and i havent used the platform before. I was going to jump straight in and do Full Frontal but my legs where still feeling a little beaten up from the day before. I ended up doing A Very Dark place which was pretty great, if not pretty horrible.

    Im going to do full frontal tomorrow i think, do a slower endurance workout tonight just to keep the legs ticking over and then smash the big one tomorrow.

    Then i need to make a choice, to stay with the sufferfest for a bit, or go back to Trainer Road!?!?
  • bvduck
    bvduck Posts: 44
    Websta24 wrote:
    I went and activated the 7 day free trial with the Sufferfest last night as i was intrigued by 4DP and i havent used the platform before. I was going to jump straight in and do Full Frontal but my legs where still feeling a little beaten up from the day before. I ended up doing A Very Dark place which was pretty great, if not pretty horrible.

    Im going to do full frontal tomorrow i think, do a slower endurance workout tonight just to keep the legs ticking over and then smash the big one tomorrow.

    Then i need to make a choice, to stay with the sufferfest for a bit, or go back to Trainer Road!?!?

    Hey - David from The Sufferfest here. Thanks for trying the app out. To do Full Frontal right, you need to be fresh and ready to smash it. Here is our suggested approach for it and how to pace it on the day: https://vimeo.com/238020529
    David McQuillen, Chief Suffering Officer
    http://www.thesufferfest.com
    @thesufferfest
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,652
    Thanks for replying David.

    @Websta and SuperMurph - would appreciate if you could post your findings, and subsequent decsions on this thread as and when you make them!
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • Websta24
    Websta24 Posts: 162
    bvduck wrote:
    Websta24 wrote:
    I went and activated the 7 day free trial with the Sufferfest last night as i was intrigued by 4DP and i havent used the platform before. I was going to jump straight in and do Full Frontal but my legs where still feeling a little beaten up from the day before. I ended up doing A Very Dark place which was pretty great, if not pretty horrible.

    Im going to do full frontal tomorrow i think, do a slower endurance workout tonight just to keep the legs ticking over and then smash the big one tomorrow.

    Then i need to make a choice, to stay with the sufferfest for a bit, or go back to Trainer Road!?!?

    Hey - David from The Sufferfest here. Thanks for trying the app out. To do Full Frontal right, you need to be fresh and ready to smash it. Here is our suggested approach for it and how to pace it on the day: https://vimeo.com/238020529

    Hence i didnt jump straight in and do it last night! I'm pretty fresh anyway so will just spin the legs out tonight and see how i feel tomorrow.

    It looks a similar setup to a regular FTP test, with some bursts, a 5 min effort, then the ftp...but then the extra sprints on the end will be a killer!

    Does the test automatically disable ERG mode for the efforts? or do we have to manually turn it off at the beginning?

    @DanielB, yeah i will let you know how it goes
  • supermurph09
    supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    Daniel B wrote:
    Thanks for replying David.

    @Websta and SuperMurph - would appreciate if you could post your findings, and subsequent decsions on this thread as and when you make them!

    Sure, will do.

    **** stupid question alert **** Am I right in thinking that Sufferfest doesn't control the slope on your trainer like Zwift does. Pretty sure is doesn't but didn't want to miss out. That would be a good addition though.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,652
    Websta24 wrote:

    Does the test automatically disable ERG mode for the efforts? or do we have to manually turn it off at the beginning?

    @DanielB, yeah i will let you know how it goes

    Just watched the vid, and it would seem that you have to run it in resistance mode, which I was a bit surprised by.

    Guess that means you need to tinker with your gears and or the resistance quite a lot during the test?

    Unlike a standard twin 8 where I know what resistance and gear I want for them, I can see you needing to make a note of 4 different resistance amounts and gears potentially?
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • bvduck
    bvduck Posts: 44
    Daniel B wrote:
    **** stupid question alert **** Am I right in thinking that Sufferfest doesn't control the slope on your trainer like Zwift does. Pretty sure is doesn't but didn't want to miss out. That would be a good addition though.

    Do you mean control the trainer's resistance in 'erg' mode? Yes, The Sufferfest app does that. However, for the Full Frontal fitness test, we strongly (super strongly) suggest you turn it off otherwise you won't get proper results. After that, turn it on and fully enjoy the automated pain that can only come with AAARGH mode.
    David McQuillen, Chief Suffering Officer
    http://www.thesufferfest.com
    @thesufferfest
  • Websta24
    Websta24 Posts: 162
    bvduck wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    **** stupid question alert **** Am I right in thinking that Sufferfest doesn't control the slope on your trainer like Zwift does. Pretty sure is doesn't but didn't want to miss out. That would be a good addition though.

    Do you mean control the trainer's resistance in 'erg' mode? Yes, The Sufferfest app does that. However, for the Full Frontal fitness test, we strongly (super strongly) suggest you turn it off otherwise you won't get proper results. After that, turn it on and fully enjoy the automated pain that can only come with AAARGH mode.

    If not in ERG mode the default seems to be Level 3...there are 9 levels....which do you recommend?!?
  • bvduck
    bvduck Posts: 44
    Websta24 wrote:
    It looks a similar setup to a regular FTP test, with some bursts, a 5 min effort, then the ftp...but then the extra sprints on the end will be a killer! Does the test automatically disable ERG mode for the efforts? or do we have to manually turn it off at the beginning

    The test has a warm-up, then two five second sprints, then a five minute effort, then 20 min and wraps up with a glorious one minute of pure agony. I would recommend turning erg mode off before the test so you don't forget to turn it off later. Why do you need erg mode off? Because erg mode sets targets based on pre-supposed capabilities (in this case, your FTP). We need to know exactly what you can do, so you need to be able to ride without specific targets and just go as hard as you can. After that, all the workouts will be adjusted to your 4DP profile and you can erg mode all you want.
    David McQuillen, Chief Suffering Officer
    http://www.thesufferfest.com
    @thesufferfest
  • bvduck
    bvduck Posts: 44
    Websta24 wrote:
    If not in ERG mode the default seems to be Level 3...there are 9 levels....which do you recommend?!?
    This all depends on how strong you are and your trainer. Level 3-4ish could be right. If you're not sure, drop us a line on theminions@thesufferfest.com so we can find out more and suggest something more appropriate (the guys on the team have more experience than me with different trainers).
    David McQuillen, Chief Suffering Officer
    http://www.thesufferfest.com
    @thesufferfest
  • stevie63
    stevie63 Posts: 481
    It's great to see sufferfest on here answering questions. Do you know if or when you are going to read Bluetooth data from powertap hubs as according to the technical page it's ant plus only. At the mo that's the only thing swinging me towards trainer road/zwift.
  • Websta24
    Websta24 Posts: 162
    bvduck wrote:
    Websta24 wrote:
    It looks a similar setup to a regular FTP test, with some bursts, a 5 min effort, then the ftp...but then the extra sprints on the end will be a killer! Does the test automatically disable ERG mode for the efforts? or do we have to manually turn it off at the beginning

    The test has a warm-up, then two five second sprints, then a five minute effort, then 20 min and wraps up with a glorious one minute of pure agony. I would recommend turning erg mode off before the test so you don't forget to turn it off later. Why do you need erg mode off? Because erg mode sets targets based on pre-supposed capabilities (in this case, your FTP). We need to know exactly what you can do, so you need to be able to ride without specific targets and just go as hard as you can. After that, all the workouts will be adjusted to your 4DP profile and you can erg mode all you want.

    Yes i know that ERG should be disabled, i was just curious because the other platforms automatically switch it off for the effort and then switch it back on again for the recovery sections
  • Websta24
    Websta24 Posts: 162
    bvduck wrote:
    Websta24 wrote:
    If not in ERG mode the default seems to be Level 3...there are 9 levels....which do you recommend?!?
    This all depends on how strong you are and your trainer. Level 3-4ish could be right. If you're not sure, drop us a line on theminions@thesufferfest.com so we can find out more and suggest something more appropriate (the guys on the team have more experience than me with different trainers).

    Mine is a Kickr Snap...will test a few levels out and see but i guess middle of the road will be fine!


    Thanks for your input!
  • Websta24
    Websta24 Posts: 162
    I did the Full frontal test this afternoon. It put me within 1 point of my TR FTP so all things being equal I’m going to stick with TR and my previously purchased SF vids in PerfPRO, which for me is the perfect combination.
    Not knocking the SF App in any way, but it’s a lot less detailed than TR AND PP interface.
    I like to see stuff happening as well as the vids and the line along the workout with not much else doesn’t work for me. But each to their own.
    I was also a bit surprised that the FF test had no video on launch? Seems a bit of a slip up, it was very boring trying to stay on it just watching the line!

    I just downloaded FF and can confirm there is a Video to go with the workout
  • supermurph09
    supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    bvduck wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    **** stupid question alert **** Am I right in thinking that Sufferfest doesn't control the slope on your trainer like Zwift does. Pretty sure is doesn't but didn't want to miss out. That would be a good addition though.

    Do you mean control the trainer's resistance in 'erg' mode? Yes, The Sufferfest app does that. However, for the Full Frontal fitness test, we strongly (super strongly) suggest you turn it off otherwise you won't get proper results. After that, turn it on and fully enjoy the automated pain that can only come with AAARGH mode.

    Ah right, that is excellent news, just need to work out to do that now! I was struggling to keep the effort level in line with the cadence last night for "Angels", so if the app adjusts the slope to make it harder that will enhance things massively.
  • bvduck
    bvduck Posts: 44
    stevie63 wrote:
    It's great to see sufferfest on here answering questions. Do you know if or when you are going to read Bluetooth data from powertap hubs as according to the technical page it's ant plus only. At the mo that's the only thing swinging me towards trainer road/zwift.

    Hey Stevie -- Powertap should work fine connecting over Bluetooth (I think we need to update our help page, sorry about that). If you have any problems, drop us a line on theminions@thesufferfest.com and they'll work with you to figure out what is going on. They know a lot more about all the different device connections than me.
    David McQuillen, Chief Suffering Officer
    http://www.thesufferfest.com
    @thesufferfest
  • stevie63
    stevie63 Posts: 481
    bvduck wrote:
    stevie63 wrote:
    It's great to see sufferfest on here answering questions. Do you know if or when you are going to read Bluetooth data from powertap hubs as according to the technical page it's ant plus only. At the mo that's the only thing swinging me towards trainer road/zwift.

    Hey Stevie -- Powertap should work fine connecting over Bluetooth (I think we need to update our help page, sorry about that). If you have any problems, drop us a line on theminions@thesufferfest.com and they'll work with you to figure out what is going on. They know a lot more about all the different device connections than me.
    Cool thanks, my powertap comes tomorrow, look forward to training with power.
  • bsharp77
    bsharp77 Posts: 533
    David, thanks for taking time to reply to all the messages here.
    The sufferfest really has came a long way over the past few years.

    Just a point regarding the overall system - developing 4DP is certainly a great step forward, taking the heavy lifting out of any calculations for anyone that just wants to ride. Taking that idea of ease of use further, it would be great to have your training plans built into the app, so that when you select a plan to follow, the appropriate workout appears next time you login - in fact extrapolating this further, the app could even send a reminder alert the night before to remind you whats coming up.

    I think it would give even more motivation to complete a training plan - the PDFs are fine, but when its all automated within the app its a much slicker experience.

    One other minor point - ERG mode over bluetooth really is a must do as well - all the other apps have it for my trainer except the sufferfest at this point...and I'm not going back to having an ANT dongle protruding out of my iPad!

    Thanks a lot for the continued advancements in what is a very good training system.