4DP. Discuss

bvduck

bsharp77 wrote:

David, thanks for taking time to reply to all the messages here. The sufferfest really has came a long way over the past few years. Just a point regarding the overall system - developing 4DP is certainly a great step forward, taking the heavy lifting out of any calculations for anyone that just wants to ride. Taking that idea of ease of use further, it would be great to have your training plans built into the app, so that when you select a plan to follow, the appropriate workout appears next time you login - in fact extrapolating this further, the app could even send a reminder alert the night before to remind you whats coming up.

I think it would give even more motivation to complete a training plan - the PDFs are fine, but when its all automated within the app its a much slicker experience. One other minor point - ERG mode over bluetooth really is a must do as well - all the other apps have it for my trainer except the sufferfest at this point...and I'm not going back to having an ANT dongle protruding out of my iPad! Thanks a lot for the continued advancements in what is a very good training system.

It's really my pleasure to be here in the forum -- if you all are taking the time out of your day to discuss what we're doing, or even subscribe to our app, then we at least owe you the courtesy of trying to be around these parts once in a while, eh?

Training Plans: Absolutely. This is a weak point for us. Our plans are amazing, they're detailed, they've got more tips and guidance than nearly any other plan out here. However, the fact they are in PDFs is a little bit cumbersome. So, in Q1 next year, they will be fully integrated (digital) into the app so no more PDFs. Full calendar of activiites, you'll be able to add yoga and/or mental training if you wish and...well, we've got some cool stuff planned with rider types and strength/weakness targeting. But that might come slightly later.

Erg on Bluetooth: Yes. We're working on it and it's a very high priority for us. Expect us to have it done, at the very least, by the end of the year if not sooner.

bsharp77

bvduck wrote:

It's really my pleasure to be here in the forum -- if you all are taking the time out of your day to discuss what we're doing, or even subscribe to our app, then we at least owe you the courtesy of trying to be around these parts once in a while, eh?

Training Plans: Absolutely. This is a weak point for us. Our plans are amazing, they're detailed, they've got more tips and guidance than nearly any other plan out here. However, the fact they are in PDFs is a little bit cumbersome. So, in Q1 next year, they will be fully integrated (digital) into the app so no more PDFs. Full calendar of activiites, you'll be able to add yoga and/or mental training if you wish and...well, we've got some cool stuff planned with rider types and strength/weakness targeting. But that might come slightly later.

Erg on Bluetooth: Yes. We're working on it and it's a very high priority for us. Expect us to have it done, at the very least, by the end of the year if not sooner.

That is really excellent news David!
I'm very excited to see how the updates work, but all sounds exactly like what I was describing so you are well ahead of me!

Thanks again for being so active in the forum and continuing to improve an already great service.

supermurph09

I did the test, I used my Stages PM to show the power and cadence and downloaded the test incase of connection issues. Everything worked perfectly and I will now have all my levels based on the 4DP.

The test is very hard so come at it fresh, the maximum powers for each interval came out lower than what I can do in isolation out on the road but that's what you would expect. The 5 minute effort is a killer, the 20 minute FTP interval I think I probably could have gone a bit harder earlier on, but you never know! I found myself in a nice rhythm in terms of cadence and power and the line on my power had no spikes so was a solid well paced effort.

The final 1 minute interval is an absolute sick inducer! (almost). I did as told, sprinted hard then hung on the end result was 100W down on what i could normally do for 1 minute but I think this part is about how well you have recovered from the earlier fatigue. The 4DP suggested some sessions and showed where my weakness are so inconjunction with club rides I'm looking forward to carrying on.

A few months ago my FTP was at 300, I'd recently dropped it down to 285 after a holiday and brief time off the bike. I've now shoved it back up to 291 based on the FTP interval here.

I was using my Tacx flow (smart), I was concerned that it might not handle things great but to be honest it was perfect. The sprints I managed 950W (I can do 1050W on the road), my FTP interval saw me doing a nice 95rpm to hit my target power so all in all I was happy with the efforts.

daniel_b

Supermurph09 wrote:

I did the test, I used my Stages PM to show the power and cadence and downloaded the test incase of connection issues. Everything worked perfectly and I will now have all my levels based on the 4DP.

The test is very hard so come at it fresh, the maximum powers for each interval came out lower than what I can do in isolation out on the road but that's what you would expect. The 5 minute effort is a killer, the 20 minute FTP interval I think I probably could have gone a bit harder earlier on, but you never know! I found myself in a nice rhythm in terms of cadence and power and the line on my power had no spikes so was a solid well paced effort.

The final 1 minute interval is an absolute sick inducer! (almost). I did as told, sprinted hard then hung on the end result was 100W down on what i could normally do for 1 minute but I think this part is about how well you have recovered from the earlier fatigue. The 4DP suggested some sessions and showed where my weakness are so inconjunction with club rides I'm looking forward to carrying on.

A few months ago my FTP was at 300, I'd recently dropped it down to 285 after a holiday and brief time off the bike. I've now shoved it back up to 291 based on the FTP interval here.

I was using my Tacx flow (smart), I was concerned that it might not handle things great but to be honest it was perfect. The sprints I managed 950W (I can do 1050W on the road), my FTP interval saw me doing a nice 95rpm to hit my target power so all in all I was happy with the efforts.

That does sound pretty brutal, but glad it worked for you - also good to know that that trainer can handle those high levels of power output - a lot of people would assume not.
Be interested to hear how you find it going forwards.

I was on the verge of trying Zwift, but gather Tacx are producing something called TDA - very little out there to explain exactly what it is yet sadly, but beta testers are of the opinion it will be worth the wait.

supermurph09

Daniel B wrote:

Supermurph09 wrote:

I did the test, I used my Stages PM to show the power and cadence and downloaded the test incase of connection issues. Everything worked perfectly and I will now have all my levels based on the 4DP.

The test is very hard so come at it fresh, the maximum powers for each interval came out lower than what I can do in isolation out on the road but that's what you would expect. The 5 minute effort is a killer, the 20 minute FTP interval I think I probably could have gone a bit harder earlier on, but you never know! I found myself in a nice rhythm in terms of cadence and power and the line on my power had no spikes so was a solid well paced effort.

The final 1 minute interval is an absolute sick inducer! (almost). I did as told, sprinted hard then hung on the end result was 100W down on what i could normally do for 1 minute but I think this part is about how well you have recovered from the earlier fatigue. The 4DP suggested some sessions and showed where my weakness are so inconjunction with club rides I'm looking forward to carrying on.

A few months ago my FTP was at 300, I'd recently dropped it down to 285 after a holiday and brief time off the bike. I've now shoved it back up to 291 based on the FTP interval here.

I was using my Tacx flow (smart), I was concerned that it might not handle things great but to be honest it was perfect. The sprints I managed 950W (I can do 1050W on the road), my FTP interval saw me doing a nice 95rpm to hit my target power so all in all I was happy with the efforts.

That does sound pretty brutal, but glad it worked for you - also good to know that that trainer can handle those high levels of power output - a lot of people would assume not.
Be interested to hear how you find it going forwards.

I was on the verge of trying Zwift, but gather Tacx are producing something called TDA - very little out there to explain exactly what it is yet sadly, but beta testers are of the opinion it will be worth the wait.

I think Zwift is pretty good but the issue for me was that my turbo shed is outside where the connection often used to drop so the races were no good to me which was half the reason I joined. I soon got rid of it, SF is the better option for me as I can download everything and stick to what I'm supposed to be doing, another thing I found hard on Zwift.

supermurph09

Question on the 4DP.

My chart doesn't show any of the top parts in red, only the FTP bit, is that to be expected?

stevie63

Supermurph09 wrote:

Question on the 4DP.

My chart doesn't show any of the top parts in red, only the FTP bit, is that to be expected?

If your talking about the circular chart that shows the FTP at the bottom and the other three metrics in the top there is a known issue with this which is due to be addressed in an update to the app.

supermurph09

stevie63 wrote:

Supermurph09 wrote:

Question on the 4DP.

My chart doesn't show any of the top parts in red, only the FTP bit, is that to be expected?

If your talking about the circular chart that shows the FTP at the bottom and the other three metrics in the top there is a known issue with this which is due to be addressed in an update to the app.

Exactly that, thanks.

EBEB

I’ve done a few normal videos since 4DP. I like it more, but I’m far better at long intervals than sprints so previously the sprints would kill me and I wouldn’t succeed to the end. Now I can make to the end & actually feel worse because I can just about stay on target all the way. If you were the same level of good I don’t think the benefit would be as much, but few people are.

I agree the concepts aren’t anything radically new, but then the idea is to build on past knowledge, not pretend you are a genius and developed it yourself (like some people). The text in TrainerRoad says peoples’ interval levels vary, but it is psychologically annoying to knock 5% off & it requires planning.

Next they need to personalising the normalisation of power and the nonsense that is TSS. Those still seem to be based on FTP, which is contradictory to what else they are saying (and BS).

EBEB

Update:

In the two and a bit weeks since my last post I have only put on 6W to my FTP, but my sprint has gone up by about 100W (from rubbish baseline), 1 minute by 20W and 5 minute by 54W. When I did the 1 minute my lungs were still burning from the 5min effort so suspect it should be better & the FTP should be a tad higher. It has now decided I am a climber instead of a time trialist, which is amusing as I’m 6ft4 and swim a lot, so don’t look like a climber. Unfortunately I now live in London so there are no real hills but I think the 5 minute power would be useful, so my anecdotal n=1 experience is it is good to target and measure different durations.

Websta24

So i finally got around to doing the 4DP test...brutal! The 20min ftp was hell, actual hell. I'm not sure if the FTP is correct now or not, but its hard to tell because its totally different to any FTP test I've ever taken before. I was genuinely gassed after the first 5 mins and struggling to hold 200w!!!

However, im going to stick with it and aim to improve all areas with the recommendations given to me in the app in order to improve the weak areas.

Here are my results

Rider type: Sprinter

5 sec power: 948 (11.81w/kg) - This is ranked as very good
1min AC: 357 (4.45w/kg) - Good (just)
5min MAP: 269 (3.35w/kg) - Good (Just)
20min FTP: 216 (2.69w/kg) - good (just)

mw22

Not sure why I find other peoples results interesting... but I do, so here's mine from 4 weeks ago (off the back off a cold :roll: )
Having another crack this weekend

Rider type pursuiter!

5 sec: 661 (9.85w/kg) Scraped into good. Found this really difficult tbh
1 min: 364 (5.42w/kg)
5min: 270 (4.02w/kg) - half way to very good
20 min: 214 (3.19w/kg). Had a 216 on a video since.

I guess in ERG mode you will never actually better these scores (well not by alot).
Not sure what to expect this time around... would like to see both the 5sec and 20 min improve by a chunk.

Websta24

We’ll, I did “a very dark place” this evening and I had to up the difficulty to 105% so I’m not sure my results are all that accurate.

I’ll stick with it where it is for now and the next see where I end up in a few weeks....don’t want to be going through full frontal too often though :?

ronnierocket

Very interested in this discussion as struggled with the endurance aspects of the test, and am now doing the training plan with a very low FTP which I am not sure I will improve much as I use ERG mode.


Here are my results

Rider type: Attacker

5 sec power: 975 (13.27w/kg) - Very good
1min AC: 378 (5.14w/kg) - Very good
5min MAP: 199 (2.71w/kg) - Needs improvement
20min FTP: 167 (2.27w/kg) - Not sure but pretty sure it's bad.

I am doing the advanced training plan on the back of this but am worried that I won't make improvement on the endurance side that need improving.

Although, the ftp is bad I don't think it should be that bad and just not good at the test. I don't really want to waste the next few weeks on a plan that won't improve me.

benpatton

Performed my first 4DP test a few weeks ago and would expect to improve next time just due to the fact it is different to the usual 8 or 20min FTP tests I have done previously. I would image this statement would be the same for most people.

Bit disappointed really as I am a larger than average rider (6'2" 220lbs with large legs) and can push out some larger than average numbers when fit (however my body weight has always been my downfall). As a test I performed my normal 20min FTP test a few days later and came back with a higher number. Going to give this new system a go and see if I can improve my (relatively) poor numbers.

I did like the fact that these tests were performed in the same session, as I always thought that the normal FTP tests were not really representative of what you would see during the average competitive club ride etc.

Rider type: Attacker

5 sec power: 857 (7.79w/kg)
1min AC: 554 (5.84w/kg)
5min MAP: 344 (3.13w/kg)
20min FTP: 289 (2.63w/kg)

stevie63

ronnierocket wrote:

Very interested in this discussion as struggled with the endurance aspects of the test, and am now doing the training plan with a very low FTP which I am not sure I will improve much as I use ERG mode.


Here are my results

Rider type: Attacker

5 sec power: 975 (13.27w/kg) - Very good
1min AC: 378 (5.14w/kg) - Very good
5min MAP: 199 (2.71w/kg) - Needs improvement
20min FTP: 167 (2.27w/kg) - Not sure but pretty sure it's bad.

I am doing the advanced training plan on the back of this but am worried that I won't make improvement on the endurance side that need improving.

Although, the ftp is bad I don't think it should be that bad and just not good at the test. I don't really want to waste the next few weeks on a plan that won't improve me.

A lot of the sessions that work on your strengths will also target your weaknesses. For example with something like The Shovel the sections with the intervals are 20 minutes long so this will drive improvements to your 5 minute and 20 minute even though the intervals are under a minute long.

Websta24

I was slightly disappointed with the result but this was because i saw such a big drop in FTP. But when you consider that this test comes at it from a completely different approach, you can begin to understand that perhaps the original figure was slightly scewed.

I did "Nine Hammers" on Friday and it seemed to be pretty much on the money in terms of difficulty so i guess the 4DP profile is correct.

I'm going to stick with it as it is for now and then re-test in 4/5 weeks

mw22

Well had my 2nd attempt at it - 4 weeks after this first which was off the back of man flu. Was expecting increases in sprint and 20 min....

5s power - 518 (7.72w/kg) - down 143w
1min - 382 (5.69w/kg) - up 18w
5min - 275 (4.10w/kg) - up 5w (adjusted). I think looking at my data, this was only adjusted up from 274.
20min - 239 (3.56w/kg) - up 25w
climber profile

I found this mentally tough this time round knowing how much it was going to hurt.

5s - I really dont get this. So massively down on last time, I'm never expecting massive results here. Never had a sprint or raw power. But I think I struggle with the whole concept... how much do I need to wind it up before the "sprint" itself starts? I can't grind a gear, but reluctant to change gear mid sprint, so end up spinning at 140rpm - can't imagine thats helping my numbers!

1min - I was pretty happy with this... I didnt quite hit the peak number if suggested for the first 15, but I didnt fade much either till the last 10 seconds so was way above the lower suggested number during the 2nd half.

5 min - Not sure what to make of this... I think I went off a bit too hard, but I didnt really have a drop off. It REALLY hurt tho and I never really settled into it.

20 min - pleased with this, up over 10% and as someone that does Tri, probably the most important. Last 2 mins hurt like he11 and felt sick from the lungs burning. But started off nicely and built into it (which I dont feel I have time to do on the others)

So - any tips on how to bl00dy sprint?
Mike

yorkshireraw

anyone using a wahoo kickr for SF?

What level did you use to do the FF test?

Thanks

stevie63

The sprint is a tough one to hit just right as it's your best 5 seconds from a 7 second interval. I've done the 4DP test once and I miss-timed both of the attempts and ended up with 627, I since done over 700 during another session and outdoors I can hit 900. I use a dumb magnetic trainer so for me it's a case of Shift onto big ring turn the resistance dial up and go for it. Don't forget if your new numbers mean that your sprint targets are little bit too low now you can adjust them up in the app

Websta24

mw22 wrote:

Well had my 2nd attempt at it - 4 weeks after this first which was off the back of man flu. Was expecting increases in sprint and 20 min....

5s power - 518 (7.72w/kg) - down 143w
1min - 382 (5.69w/kg) - up 18w
5min - 275 (4.10w/kg) - up 5w (adjusted). I think looking at my data, this was only adjusted up from 274.
20min - 239 (3.56w/kg) - up 25w
climber profile

I found this mentally tough this time round knowing how much it was going to hurt.

5s - I really dont get this. So massively down on last time, I'm never expecting massive results here. Never had a sprint or raw power. But I think I struggle with the whole concept... how much do I need to wind it up before the "sprint" itself starts? I can't grind a gear, but reluctant to change gear mid sprint, so end up spinning at 140rpm - can't imagine thats helping my numbers!

1min - I was pretty happy with this... I didnt quite hit the peak number if suggested for the first 15, but I didnt fade much either till the last 10 seconds so was way above the lower suggested number during the 2nd half.

5 min - Not sure what to make of this... I think I went off a bit too hard, but I didnt really have a drop off. It REALLY hurt tho and I never really settled into it.

20 min - pleased with this, up over 10% and as someone that does Tri, probably the most important. Last 2 mins hurt like he11 and felt sick from the lungs burning. But started off nicely and built into it (which I dont feel I have time to do on the others)

So - any tips on how to bl00dy sprint?
Mike

Are you using a smart trainer? If so, which one? I use a Kickr Snap set on level 4 and definitely not in ERG mode.

Sprinting Is all about the gear. Go for something that's pretty hard but start to spin it up a little bit 5 seconds before the start. This way, when the timer starts you're not going to get bogged down but you also have much less risk of spinning out.

mw22

Yep on a Tacx Flux and was in standard mode (level 3).

I'm very conscious about not being able to get a big gear going tho, so err on a spinning one - then obviously end up over spinning. I'm awful at trying to grind a gear or get going in one.

Think I just need to practise and see what works for me.

I'm not overly fussed - its the least important to the racing I do... but it would help with cornering and stuff, as I often lose a wheel when I can't get the power down quicker.

Websta24

mw22 wrote:

Yep on a Tacx Flux and was in standard mode (level 3).

I'm very conscious about not being able to get a big gear going tho, so err on a spinning one - then obviously end up over spinning. I'm awful at trying to grind a gear or get going in one.

Think I just need to practise and see what works for me.

I'm not overly fussed - its the least important to the racing I do... but it would help with cornering and stuff, as I often lose a wheel when I can't get the power down quicker.

Your always going to have to grind the start out, but that's when you want to pop out of the saddle and really explode down on the pedals, wind the legs up and try to hang onto it!

You could always do some specific power workouts as well. These will help

gsk82

I've just done full frontal for the first time. I was surprised to find i got an FTP 9w higher than when i did rubber Glove this time last year. It has my weakness as 5 second power, but i'd expect most people to get that on a turbo trainer due to not wanting a break the bike or yourself. I expect this to be a big improvement on just using FTP to set zones. I've always found that i'm way better than the recommended power suggests on the shorter intervals.

5-second (Neuromuscular Power): 917W (13.29w/kg)
1-minute (Anaerobic Capacity): 525W (7.61w/kg)
5-minute (Maximal Aerobic Power): 360W (5.22w/kg)
20-minute (Functional Threshold Power): 275W (3.99w/kg)

Readings are using an Elite Muin so i can't say how accurate they are at all.

Mapaputsi

gsk82 wrote:

I've just done full frontal for the first time. I was surprised to find i got an FTP 9w higher than when i did rubber Glove this time last year. It has my weakness as 5 second power, but i'd expect most people to get that on a turbo trainer due to not wanting a break the bike or yourself. I expect this to be a big improvement on just using FTP to set zones. I've always found that i'm way better than the recommended power suggests on the shorter intervals.

5-second (Neuromuscular Power): 917W (13.29w/kg)
1-minute (Anaerobic Capacity): 525W (7.61w/kg)
5-minute (Maximal Aerobic Power): 360W (5.22w/kg)
20-minute (Functional Threshold Power): 275W (3.99w/kg)

Readings are using an Elite Muin so i can't say how accurate they are at all.

This is my concern for 4DP - my 5sec power is 300-400W higher outdoors than on my trainer, while 1, 5 & 20 is fairly similar. I feel that 4DP will skew riders towards improving their 5 sec power because of this.

gsk82

Mapaputsi wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

I've just done full frontal for the first time. I was surprised to find i got an FTP 9w higher than when i did rubber Glove this time last year. It has my weakness as 5 second power, but i'd expect most people to get that on a turbo trainer due to not wanting a break the bike or yourself. I expect this to be a big improvement on just using FTP to set zones. I've always found that i'm way better than the recommended power suggests on the shorter intervals.

5-second (Neuromuscular Power): 917W (13.29w/kg)
1-minute (Anaerobic Capacity): 525W (7.61w/kg)
5-minute (Maximal Aerobic Power): 360W (5.22w/kg)
20-minute (Functional Threshold Power): 275W (3.99w/kg)

Readings are using an Elite Muin so i can't say how accurate they are at all.

This is my concern for 4DP - my 5sec power is 300-400W higher outdoors than on my trainer, while 1, 5 & 20 is fairly similar. I feel that 4DP will skew riders towards improving their 5 sec power because of this.

Despite it been my weakness on the pie chart, it said my weakness was endurance and recommended endurance videos. I think they must know the 5 second effort can't be very accurate.

EBEB

It is actually interesting to see everyone else’s results. I didn’t think it would be, but maybe they should let you know where you lie in the community (as W/lean mass). I have learnt I am really terrible at sprinting. I just can’t see how I would get that much sudden power. I have literally no idea how you are doing it. I guess it is a cadence thing. I’m rubbish at low but 5 seconds isn’t long enough to change gear.

The sessions are beginning to feel a bit easy so I need to retest; Conservatively I expect to get
5 second 750W
1 minute 465W
5 minute 370W
20 minute 300W

So pretty much the opposite of other people. I hadn’t expected the magnitude of difference between people to be so huge.

stevie63

EBEB wrote:

It is actually interesting to see everyone else’s results. I didn’t think it would be, but maybe they should let you know where you lie in the community (as W/lean mass). I have learnt I am really terrible at sprinting. I just can’t see how I would get that much sudden power. I have literally no idea how you are doing it. I guess it is a cadence thing. I’m rubbish at low but 5 seconds isn’t long enough to change gear.

The sessions are beginning to feel a bit easy so I need to retest; Conservatively I expect to get
5 second 750W
1 minute 465W
5 minute 370W
20 minute 300W

So pretty much the opposite of other people. I hadn’t expected the magnitude of difference between people to be so huge.

Looking at your numbers I imagine that your profile is Time Triallist. As such you wouldn't usually have an explosive sprint. However technique is part of the process. For me I can get a better 5 second number if I go into a big gear first, crank up the resistance, go low cadence and go for it when the gun goes. However how you do this would depend on the type of trainer you have but getting into the right gear before you sprint will help.

cycleclinic

4DP well I should have marketed that myself. Using golden cheetah although I have not for 6 months the 5 sec, 10 sec, 1 minute, 5 minute and 20 minute effort are all the ones I monitered.

to improve sprint I do and I need to (as I can only do ~1000W at present) for for a 666 ride. That is on a flat circuit I use a 4 mile black road loop ride then 6 second sprint from 80 rpm then freewheel/spin for 24secs and sprint again. repeat until your legs fall off. It is called a 666 ride as one I did was 66x6 sec sprints at ~700W. It was a hell of a ride.

w00dster

If anyone is interested I did the 4DP test on a Watt Bike.
My numbers, I'm 66kgs, 5s is 838, 1 min 360, 5 min 284, 20 min 247.
On the same bike doing normal 20 min FTP test I scored 268 watts, giving FTP of 253.
On the 4DP test I held back on the 5 min test because I know how painful the 20 min test is. I started pretty easy on the 20min test and ramped up after 10 mins, was done in at the end and don't think there was much left in the tank. The 1 min test I also think I could have improved, went out hard then relaxed down for 20 seconds, I was sprinting for the last 10 and possibly could have gone harder in the middle section.

For the sprints I also couldn't quite time them right, have been doing some sessions to improve the sprint and the timing so hopefully improve next time.

I'm doing 4 sessions a week, not following a plan as such as they don't fit into my schedule. I also do a fairly easy club ride once a week as well. Out of the 4 sessions I do 3 tough workouts but mainly focused on improving my 5 minute power (I race crits mainly). I do one easy session, cadence builder or just an easy 45 mins.

I tried Zwift but much prefer The Sufferfest. Shame their training plans have to be via Trainingpeaks and not within their own app. As they are IOS based it would have been much better if you couldthat select a plan and get that to interact with the IOS calendar.

For me I start my season with a winter series in March so have 12 weeks to improve. I aim on redoing the 4DP test every 6 weeks.