Vuelta 2017:Stage 15: Alcal la Real - Sierra Nevada. Alto Hoya de la Mora. Monachil 129.4Kms *Spoile

stanislav

Pross wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Last year's Tour du Suisse ITT:-

1.Izagirre Ion Movistar Team84721:31
2.López Miguel Ángel Astana Pro Team 0:18
3.Cancellara Fabian Trek - Segafredo0:19
4.Kelderman Wilco Team LottoNL-Jumbo1 0:21
5.Talansky Andrew Cannondale Pro Cycling Team1 0:23
6.Castroviejo Jonathan Movistar Team 20:24
7.Pantano Jarlinson IAM Cycling 0:25
8.Matthews Michael Orica GreenEDGE ,,
9.Thomas Geraint Team Sky 0:33
10.van Garderen Tejay BMC Racing Team 0:34

On this:-

I thought I remembered him having a good TT. Couldn't understand why people were saying he was going to ship a bundle of time. He's also very fresh in comparison to everyone else and just racing himself into form.

For balance he lost 1.20 to Froome in the Romandie tt the same year and finished 64th in the eibar tt in early season

Pross

Must have the engine though, that's not a third rate field in the Suisse TT.

rick_chasey

Has anyone done the Terpstra video yet?

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Has anyone done the Terpstra video yet?

I've just had a look. What's the story here, because it's going over my head? The video made no sense to me.

In other news, I only today realised that Louis Meintjes is in this race.

fleshtuxedo

stanislav wrote:

Pross wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Last year's Tour du Suisse ITT:-

1.Izagirre Ion Movistar Team84721:31
2.López Miguel Ángel Astana Pro Team 0:18
3.Cancellara Fabian Trek - Segafredo0:19
4.Kelderman Wilco Team LottoNL-Jumbo1 0:21
5.Talansky Andrew Cannondale Pro Cycling Team1 0:23
6.Castroviejo Jonathan Movistar Team 20:24
7.Pantano Jarlinson IAM Cycling 0:25
8.Matthews Michael Orica GreenEDGE ,,
9.Thomas Geraint Team Sky 0:33
10.van Garderen Tejay BMC Racing Team 0:34

On this:-

I thought I remembered him having a good TT. Couldn't understand why people were saying he was going to ship a bundle of time. He's also very fresh in comparison to everyone else and just racing himself into form.

For balance he lost 1.20 to Froome in the Romandie tt the same year and finished 64th in the eibar tt in early season

That's a fine performance by Lopez at Tour De Suisse but the altitude it was all at surely was a factor.

Bo Duke

Everyone's disappointed saying it was an easy day, boring, killed, effortless etc...

Maybe we should pay more attention to the back of the peloton to see how quickly riders are spat out of the back... they were dropped like hot coals throughout the climb so whilst it might not look exciting it's only because those at the front are disguising the effort so well!

Come on guys, they were at 2,500m, clearly no one apart from Lopez was capable of a sustained effort to take time. Poor old Yates bonked because of altitude, not because he was passed.

Lookyhere

Bo Duke wrote:

Everyone's disappointed saying it was an easy day, boring, killed, effortless etc...

Maybe we should pay more attention to the back of the peloton to see how quickly riders are spat out of the back... they were dropped like hot coals throughout the climb so whilst it might not look exciting it's only because those at the front are disguising the effort so well!

Come on guys, they were at 2,500m, clearly no one apart from Lopez was capable of a sustained effort to take time. Poor old Yates bonked because of altitude, not because he was passed.

The effort was immense, anyone who has ridden at 2km plus knows how hard it is, the roads were also wide and straight, hiding the gradient from the TV viewer.
For me, its about how Sky race, effective, winning formula yes yes but it takes the heart an soul out of the overall GT race, Froomes post race interviews do not do him any favours either.

But then again, i m not a SKY fan generally

lettingthedaysgoby

See, I know I'm in a minority here but I like Sky. They've looked at the sport and worked out a ruthless winning formula. That's how elite level sport works. It's down to the others to catch up and work out ways to beat them, imho anyway.

salsiccia1

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Has anyone done the Terpstra video yet?

I've just had a look. What's the story here, because it's going over my head? The video made no sense to me.

I can only think it was a sort of play on words - PostoBON v PostoBOM and taking a plane, unless I'm being thick (which is a distinct possibility)

StillGoing

lettingthedaysgoby wrote:

See, I know I'm in a minority here but I like Sky. They've looked at the sport and worked out a ruthless winning formula. That's how elite level sport works. It's down to the others to catch up and work out ways to beat them, imho anyway.

I don't think you are, it's just that the anti Sky mob are the more vocal. Sky have worked out a winning formula and with it, convinced riders capable of their own success, to instead ride in support of the GC contender. Other teams haven't quite got that esprit de corps yet, although some are close. The financial clout of Sky obviously has an effect when a domestique can earn as much as if they were the GC contender in some less successful teams. What would a rider sooner have; a bucket of money to be able to retire on, or a remote chance of a single name entry on a list of winners that eventually gets lost in the annals of cycling history. The purists will say their name as a winner, but for me, the wise will say give me the money and shared success.

Bo Duke

lettingthedaysgoby wrote:

See, I know I'm in a minority here but I like Sky. They've looked at the sport and worked out a ruthless winning formula. That's how elite level sport works. It's down to the others to catch up and work out ways to beat them, imho anyway.

I wish England would apply to their footie team, rugby, cricket etc.... They have the best example of sports team management on their door step and look the other way.

Vino'sGhost

Bo Duke wrote:

lettingthedaysgoby wrote:

See, I know I'm in a minority here but I like Sky. They've looked at the sport and worked out a ruthless winning formula. That's how elite level sport works. It's down to the others to catch up and work out ways to beat them, imho anyway.

I wish England would apply to their footie team, rugby, cricket etc.... They have the best example of sports team management on their door step and look the other way.

Too many personalities with too much money and celebrity.

kingstongraham

Pross wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

I've stayed I to watch this :roll:

I thought it was a savage climb but guess not

It's savage but in ways you can't see which is unfortunate from a TV point of view. Just walking at those altitudes gets tough and the riders lungs will have been burning as well as their legs. It becomes attritional but watching all we see is a long, gradual drag that we don't really relate with being tough and so you get people saying 'I don't understand why rider x didn't try to attack'. When we see the Angliru we can see that the gradients make it a challenge just to turn the pedals and are more understanding - they're both very tough climbs but probably suit different types of physiology.

The "savage" gradients yesterday were halfway through the stage, not at the end. The last one was all about the length and altitude.

DeVlaeminck

What this stage needed was for Nibali to go with Lopez and Contador, we'd then have had a fighting force out ahead to worry Sky and their domestiques would at least have had to go deeper earlier. Whatever the altitude those finishing gradients were shallow enough to afford a huge benefit to anyone sitting in the group.

Race organisers have to do something about team size, we had this all through the Armstrong years and now Sky have taken up where they left off. I want to see rider against rider going for the win not pitential GC riders paid to close the racing down.

TheBigBean

I'm not one to normally defend Sky, but it was only a few stages ago that Froome was on his own with Contador with 30kms to go. Froome at the Vuelta is quite a different thing to Froome at the tour. So, my guess is that Froome wasn't feeling that good yesterday, so followed the wheels and did what he needed to.

DeVlaeminck

TheBigBean wrote:

I'm not one to normally defend Sky, but it was only a few stages ago that Froome was on his own with Contador with 30kms to go. Froome at the Vuelta is quite a different thing to Froome at the tour. So, my guess is that Froome wasn't feeling that good yesterday, so followed the wheels and did what he needed to.

It's not an attack on Sky they play the game according to the rules as they are, I'd do the same. It's a suggestion that as the sport has developed the influence of a strong team has become something that detracts from the racing. Take yesterday, Froome's main rivals were reeled back without Froome or any of the other GC men putting their faces in the wind once. There may be exceptions to the rule but if we cut team sizes significantly we'd open up the races to those willing to take a chance.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

I'm not one to normally defend Sky, but it was only a few stages ago that Froome was on his own with Contador with 30kms to go. Froome at the Vuelta is quite a different thing to Froome at the tour. So, my guess is that Froome wasn't feeling that good yesterday, so followed the wheels and did what he needed to.

It's not an attack on Sky they play the game according to the rules as they are, I'd do the same. It's a suggestion that as the sport has developed the influence of a strong team has become something that detracts from the racing. Take yesterday, Froome's main rivals were reeled back without Froome or any of the other GC men putting their faces in the wind once. There may be exceptions to the rule but if we cut team sizes significantly we'd open up the races to those willing to take a chance.

Fairly sure your namesake's main gripe about Merckx was how strong his team was.

RichN95.

I can't find it now, but a journalist posted an extract from a book that perfectly described Sky - essentially a highly talented team stifling attacks from opponents to shut down the race in defence of their lead. But it wasn't written about Sky, it was written about Merckx's Molteni.

This idea that there was some golden age where big teams didn't defend leads in the way do Sky is delusional.

Other teams have strong riders, but they constantly just use them to follow wheels for as long as possible rather than to influence the race. Only AG2R have tried and there are teams with better rosters than AG2R.

Lookyhere

TheBigBean wrote:

I'm not one to normally defend Sky, but it was only a few stages ago that Froome was on his own with Contador with 30kms to go. Froome at the Vuelta is quite a different thing to Froome at the tour. So, my guess is that Froome wasn't feeling that good yesterday, so followed the wheels and did what he needed to.

The way he closed down that gap yesterday was akin to Cancellera and his so called electric motor claim, froome then went on to drop Contador and out sprint Nibs gaining 6 seconds but he was nt feeling very good???? :shock:

rick_chasey

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

We had that in the early nineties. The Indurain years were dullest Tours of them all.

blazing_saddles

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

Given we have this "new era", there is a lot of truth in this.
When folks now demand attacks from way out that stick, what they are really asking for is for some good, old fashioned cheating.

sheffsimon

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

We had that in the early nineties. The Indurain years were dullest Tours of them all.

Wot, Big Mig on EPO? Never.

Say it ain't true Miguel.

Those years did have a few moments, mainly when others who had used even more EPO blasted up the road on long range attacks....I'm look at you Claudio.

DeVlaeminck

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

Given we have this "new era", there is a lot of truth in this.
When folks now demand attacks from way out that stick, what they are really asking for is for some good, old fashioned cheating.

I don't think that's the issue, I don't see a huge difference between the Armtrong years and the Sky years. EPO or clean if they are all on it I don't see it affected the style of racing too much just the speed they ride at.

stagehopper

Movistar/Astana used the same tactics as Sky in the Giro, year after year. It's a sane, sensible tactic when you have the strongest rider.

TheBigBean

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

Given we have this "new era", there is a lot of truth in this.
When folks now demand attacks from way out that stick, what they are really asking for is for some good, old fashioned cheating.

I disagree. We've had plenty of stages in the Vuelta that have involved lots of attacks. Yesterday wasn't one of them.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

Given we have this "new era", there is a lot of truth in this.
When folks now demand attacks from way out that stick, what they are really asking for is for some good, old fashioned cheating.

I don't think that's the issue, I don't see a huge difference between the Armtrong years and the Sky years. EPO or clean if they are all on it I don't see it affected the style of racing too much just the speed they ride at.

The big difference for me is how Sky rotate their domestiques. All USPS had to deliver 7 days a week.

TheBigBean wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

Given we have this "new era", there is a lot of truth in this.
When folks now demand attacks from way out that stick, what they are really asking for is for some good, old fashioned cheating.

I disagree. We've had plenty of stages in the Vuelta that have involved lots of attacks. Yesterday wasn't one of them.

Way out = Long range.
We had that yesterday from Lopez, Contador, Yates, Bardet, Kruijswijk and Nibali.

Which stages were you referring to that had more?

TheBigBean

Blazing Saddles wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What you need is only the top 20% best riders or so to be on gigantic amounts of EPO.

Given we have this "new era", there is a lot of truth in this.
When folks now demand attacks from way out that stick, what they are really asking for is for some good, old fashioned cheating.

I disagree. We've had plenty of stages in the Vuelta that have involved lots of attacks. Yesterday wasn't one of them.

Way out = Long range.
We had that yesterday from Lopez, Contador, Yates, Bardet, Kruijswijk and Nibali.

Which stages were you referring to that had more?

Yates and Bardet were simply breakaway riders that you see on every stage. You could just about include Kruijswijk as a GC rider if you were being generous, and Nibali's attempt never really got going, so I would say that in GC terms only 8th and 10th placed attacked from a reasonable distance or in any significant way.

As mentioned above, the stage where Froome and Contador were alone, unsupported, with 30km to go involved more meaningful long range attacks.

TheBigBean

Stage 6. Maybe it was a case of performance beating expectations.

DeVlaeminck

stagehopper wrote:

Movistar/Astana used the same tactics as Sky in the Giro, year after year. It's a sane, sensible tactic when you have the strongest rider.

Yes exactly hence why it's not a criticism of Sky, and the strongest rider generally rides for a team with lots of money who over time will build a team to ride exactly like this.