TDF 2017: 22nd July - Stage 20 - Marseille - Marseille 22.5kms *Spoilers*

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Comments

  • lettingthedaysgoby
    lettingthedaysgoby Posts: 1,732
    So Landa/1 second. Is there any chance at all that Sky will attempt something? Or is that an unwritten rule too far? :D
  • reallyarunner
    reallyarunner Posts: 125
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    When a true genius appears in this world, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    reallyarunner wrote:

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    So who deserved it then?

    Curious to know your thoughts on Lemond 90....
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    gsk82 wrote:
    type:epyt wrote:
    Above The Cows wrote:
    Kwiato is the bomb. He's busted himself all Tour and he still puts in a TT like that.

    He's the winner in my heart today.

    Agreed x 100 ... This year he is riding at the very top of his form ... He's been almost Valverde-esque in his season long consistency of being at the sharp end when he needs to be, just when he does domestique duty it is actually a help rather than a hindrance ...

    Best image of the tour was Kwia having to unclip, having given his absolute all ... A stage win would have been a fitting reward for his efforts on every stage …

    Can he hold form until the Worlds?

    luke rowe said earlier on itv that kwiato is down fr the vuelta. is it now fair to say that his move to sky wasn't a mistake

    i've just seen landa finish again on the highlights. he definitely eased up before the line.

    I thought I heard Luke say that he was going with him and Geraint to the ToB? :?
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,547
    reallyarunner wrote:

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    He won it last year in full on attacking mode, despite having the TTs to really stamp his authority on the race. If he'd done the same this year, people like you would've complained he didn't give anyone else a chance. As it is, he rode an intelligent race and used the TTs to win the race. Like just about every other Tour winner of the last 20 years.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,547
    Let's be honest, if you've won four of the last five Tours, there is little doubt you are the best GT rider of your era.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    :roll:

    You can only beat what is put in front of you and Froome did. Might not have been full of action but any tour winner is a deserving winner. What's your opinion of Froome out of curiosity?
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    Seems like quite a simplistic view of bike racing.
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • reallyarunner
    reallyarunner Posts: 125
    andyp wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    He won it last year in full on attacking mode, despite having the TTs to really stamp his authority on the race. If he'd done the same this year, people like you would've complained he didn't give anyone else a chance. As it is, he rode an intelligent race and used the TTs to win the race. Like just about every other Tour winner of the last 20 years.

    people like me? And what is that exactly? Bit ignorant seeing as we've never met or spoken, no?
    When a true genius appears in this world, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
  • reallyarunner
    reallyarunner Posts: 125
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    :roll:

    You can only beat what is put in front of you and Froome did. Might not have been full of action but any tour winner is a deserving winner. What's your opinion of Froome out of curiosity?

    Sure, but it's how you beat them too that matters surely. Constrast this year with his other victories - one attack this year IIRC.

    As for my opinion of him, I think he's a great athlete but he bores the crap out of me. I'd have more respect for him if he stopped going on about 2012 as well...
    When a true genius appears in this world, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
  • reallyarunner
    reallyarunner Posts: 125
    iainf72 wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    So who deserved it then?

    Curious to know your thoughts on Lemond 90....

    depends on your definition of deserve I guess, Ian.

    Sorry, 90 was before my time....was still following footy then....
    When a true genius appears in this world, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    reallyarunner wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    :roll:

    You can only beat what is put in front of you and Froome did. Might not have been full of action but any tour winner is a deserving winner. What's your opinion of Froome out of curiosity?

    Sure, but it's how you beat them too that matters surely. Constrast this year with his other victories - one attack this year IIRC.

    As for my opinion of him, I think he's a great athlete but he bores the crap out of me. I'd have more respect for him if he stopped going on about 2012 as well...
    So do you reckon AG2R would rather have Barget in second with his attacking flair or do you think that they might prefer to win even if it's a bit boring.
  • joncomelately
    joncomelately Posts: 660
    iainf72 wrote:
    ....
    reallyarunner wrote:
    depends on your definition of deserve I guess, Ian.

    Observation one of your strong points?
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Usually on the champs they make 3km to go the final line for GC, so they can faff about for the pictures before anyone gets too excited.

    Pretty sure that's not right. IIRC Froome lost time in 2015 faffing about for an arms linked photo.


    The question would be just how big a gap would need to be before the jury gave Landa a second :lol:
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,547
    reallyarunner wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    He won it last year in full on attacking mode, despite having the TTs to really stamp his authority on the race. If he'd done the same this year, people like you would've complained he didn't give anyone else a chance. As it is, he rode an intelligent race and used the TTs to win the race. Like just about every other Tour winner of the last 20 years.

    people like me? And what is that exactly? Bit ignorant seeing as we've never met or spoken, no?

    People who come out of the woodwork for the Tour, offer up opinions that they can't back up, then get all antsy when they are pulled up on it.
  • reallyarunner
    reallyarunner Posts: 125
    Webboo wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    :roll:

    You can only beat what is put in front of you and Froome did. Might not have been full of action but any tour winner is a deserving winner. What's your opinion of Froome out of curiosity?

    Sure, but it's how you beat them too that matters surely. Constrast this year with his other victories - one attack this year IIRC.

    As for my opinion of him, I think he's a great athlete but he bores the crap out of me. I'd have more respect for him if he stopped going on about 2012 as well...
    So do you reckon AG2R would rather have Barget in second with his attacking flair or do you think that they might prefer to win even if it's a bit boring.

    Of course they'll take the win, however boring it is achieved. Why should they care? But if something is boring I'll call it.

    Ian had a sig about 2012 being boring - this was worse for me.
    When a true genius appears in this world, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    reallyarunner wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    :roll:

    You can only beat what is put in front of you and Froome did. Might not have been full of action but any tour winner is a deserving winner. What's your opinion of Froome out of curiosity?

    Sure, but it's how you beat them too that matters surely. Constrast this year with his other victories - one attack this year IIRC.

    As for my opinion of him, I think he's a great athlete but he bores the crap out of me. I'd have more respect for him if he stopped going on about 2012 as well...
    You beat them in the most efficient way possible taking into account your strength and weaknesses and your competition's strengths and weaknesses, your own form, their form, the parcours, etc. He said it himself that the parcours was always going to make it a cagey race. Anyone who comes out on top after three weeks of bike racing is pretty deserving in my opinion.

    I'm pretty sure you think he is a 'dick', so I'm wondering if your opinion of him clouds your judgement somewhat.
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    edited July 2017
    Changed my mind.
  • dolan_driver
    dolan_driver Posts: 831
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    I get the impression that Froome was a little below his optimum level of performance throughout this Tour. At his best, he would have distanced Uran and Bardet in the mountains with one stinging attack and would also have won that time trial today with ease. Instead he did neither which points to the fact that he was below form (got his training wrong pre-Tour), his back injury was affecting him throughout the race (and has said nothing about it) or he is simply getting older and his powers are on the wane. Not vintage Froome by a long way but he still got the job done. If he is carrying some kind of physical injury or isn't at his fittest, then perhaps it is his greatest Tour victory, though not necessarily an enthralling one for racing fans.

    DD.
  • reallyarunner
    reallyarunner Posts: 125
    edited July 2017
    andyp wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    He won it last year in full on attacking mode, despite having the TTs to really stamp his authority on the race. If he'd done the same this year, people like you would've complained he didn't give anyone else a chance. As it is, he rode an intelligent race and used the TTs to win the race. Like just about every other Tour winner of the last 20 years.

    people like me? And what is that exactly? Bit ignorant seeing as we've never met or spoken, no?

    People who come out of the woodwork for the Tour, offer up opinions that they can't back up, then get all antsy when they are pulled up on it.

    Whatever.
    When a true genius appears in this world, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    I get the impression that Froome was a little below his optimum level of performance throughout this Tour. At his best, he would have distanced Uran and Bardet in the mountains with one stinging attack and would also have won that time trial today with ease. Instead he did neither which points to the fact that he was below form (got his training wrong pre-Tour), his back injury was affecting him throughout the race (and has said nothing about it) or he is simply getting older and his powers are on the wane. Not vintage Froome by a long way but he still got the job done. If he is carrying some kind of physical injury or isn't at his fittest, then perhaps it is his greatest Tour victory, though not necessarily an enthralling one for racing fans.

    DD.
    He said at the start of the third week that he was feeling exactly how he planned to feel at that stage of the race. He' also planning to do the Vuelta, which he reiterated today. So maybe it's all a plan to be a little undercooked for the TdF to ensure a decent crack at the Vuelta. Then again that might all be complete BS :lol:
  • RonB
    RonB Posts: 3,984
    Well I'm pleased that the parcours provided some tension right up to this point, but also that some mishap didn't ultimately affect the top GC riders. I think Froome (& hopefully Dumoulin) better get used to TT light Tours for a while though with Bardet and Barguil about.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    reallyarunner wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.

    He won it last year in full on attacking mode, despite having the TTs to really stamp his authority on the race. If he'd done the same this year, people like you would've complained he didn't give anyone else a chance. As it is, he rode an intelligent race and used the TTs to win the race. Like just about every other Tour winner of the last 20 years.

    people like me? And what is that exactly? Bit ignorant seeing as we've never met or spoken, no?

    People who come out of the woodwork for the Tour, offer up opinions that they can't back up, then get all antsy when they are pulled up on it.

    Whatever.
    Well thought out reply there. Are you 16 yet.
  • reallyarunner
    reallyarunner Posts: 125
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    So Froome wins the tour without winning a stage. Says it all really.

    Yes, it says he finished all stages of the Tour consistently faster than anyone else.

    Kittel won five stages, where did it get him other than A&E?

    It also says it was the dullest and least deserving tour win of the last decade.
    :roll:

    You can only beat what is put in front of you and Froome did. Might not have been full of action but any tour winner is a deserving winner. What's your opinion of Froome out of curiosity?

    Sure, but it's how you beat them too that matters surely. Constrast this year with his other victories - one attack this year IIRC.

    As for my opinion of him, I think he's a great athlete but he bores the crap out of me. I'd have more respect for him if he stopped going on about 2012 as well...
    You beat them in the most efficient way possible taking into account your strength and weaknesses and your competition's strengths and weaknesses, your own form, their form, the parcours, etc. He said it himself that the parcours was always going to make it a cagey race. Anyone who comes out on top after three weeks of bike racing is pretty deserving in my opinion.

    I'm pretty sure you think he is a 'dick', so I'm wondering if your opinion of him clouds your judgement somewhat.

    Fair points. It possibly does.
    When a true genius appears in this world, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    RonB wrote:
    Well I'm pleased that the parcours provided some tension right up to this point, but also that some mishap didn't ultimately affect the top GC riders. I think Froome (& hopefully Dumoulin) better get used to TT light Tours for a while though with Bardet and Barguil about.

    I think they can mess about with the parcours all they like but I can't see Bardet ever beating Froome and probably Dumoulin in a GT. Bardet just isn't and all-rounder and I don't think Barguil's heart is in going for GC. He may well change his mind if offered the right setup of course but it would need to be something like Sky's obsessive devotion to one goal I think.

    AG2R had a good crack at taking it to Sky but they were never really in with a shout. It was only really one mechanical that had Froome in any sort of trouble and he even blew that effort out of the water. If Movistar put Quintana in the Giro and put all their efforts behind Landa next year dedicated to the Tour, they might just go close but I can't see that happening.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Ah, the annual 'boring Tour' comments have started I see. It's usually 'boring' due to Froome and Sky dominating from the first mountain stage. This year the podium places were changing hands on the last real stage and a minor mishap could have resulted in the lead changing but yes it was still 'boring'. I really don't get why people watch or when they saw a Tour that was exciting.

    With hindsight, Froome restricting Landa's time gains earlier in the race are looking even more of a wrong decision especially given how much time the apparently dangerous Quintana shipped (I appreciate that couldn't been known at the time).

    Bardet really needs to be prepared to risk all next year, he's got two podiums to his name so may as well go s*it or bust for the win.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Ah I see the usual comments criticising anyone who dares to call a grand tour boring have started.

    Look, some grand tours are boring, just because some people found this one so doesn't mean they have never enjoyed a race in their life. I'd give this Tour maybe a 4 out of 10, good in places but promised without ever really delivering. I think I gave the Giro an 8. If you think every race is great I'll have some of whatever your doctor prescribed you.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    He said at the start of the third week that he was feeling exactly how he planned to feel at that stage of the race. He' also planning to do the Vuelta, which he reiterated today. So maybe it's all a plan to be a little undercooked for the TdF to ensure a decent crack at the Vuelta. Then again that might all be complete BS :lol:

    I think there's something in that. Who's he up against in the Vuelta?
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Ah I see the usual comments criticising anyone who dares to call a grand tour boring have started.

    Look, some grand tours are boring, just because some people found this one so doesn't mean they have never enjoyed a race in their life. I'd give this Tour maybe a 4 out of 10, good in places but promised without ever really delivering. I think I gave the Giro an 8. If you think every race is great I'll have some of whatever your doctor prescribed you.

    I think you've missed my point - I'm commenting that every year since I started using this forum people have moaned how boring the race was this year. Usually it's because, barring major incidents, the winner is obvious by half way. I agree this year was dull, possibly the worst since I've been watching substantial amounts live, and yet ironically we had a very close race. I think it's just that 3 week bike races have lots of dull days interspersed with bits of action - people went all rose tinted for the Giro this year which turned into a good race in the end but the first half of that was dull. You won't get three weeks of exciting racing so the choice is to either make the most of the good bits, only watch highlights or don't bother watching.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Ah I see the usual comments criticising anyone who dares to call a grand tour boring have started.

    Look, some grand tours are boring, just because some people found this one so doesn't mean they have never enjoyed a race in their life. I'd give this Tour maybe a 4 out of 10, good in places but promised without ever really delivering. I think I gave the Giro an 8. If you think every race is great I'll have some of whatever your doctor prescribed you.
    I don't think he mentioned boring, which compared to others it was. It was the 'least deserving' that I took exception to. Yes it might have been boring but any rider who comes out on top after three weeks of racing is very deserving in my opinion no matter how boring the race.

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