TDF 2017: 22nd July - Stage 20 - Marseille - Marseille 22.5kms *Spoilers*

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Comments

  • Mountains09
    Mountains09 Posts: 23
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    reallyarunner wrote:
    ...I'm genuinely surprised at how nobody seems bothered that the tour winner can't manage to win a stage.

    Rules say GC is won by the rider with the lowest cumulative time.

    Some years there are time bonuses.

    Some years there's a TTT

    Some year's there's lots of ITT miles

    etc.

    Teams (and most followers) just play by the rules in force at the time and so aren't particularly bothered. If there was a requirement to win a stage then teams would race differently.

    It doesn't bother me in the slightest that a tour winner doesn't win a stage. Finishing in the fastest time requires a whole host of skills over three weeks and complete mental focus to be on form and there up front at all times and not miss anything. Wining a stage or stages is a bonus but stage winning doesn't dictate the strongest rider in the race. As stated above the route changes which plays to certain riders advantages and his they race which ultimately affects stage wins.
  • markwb79
    markwb79 Posts: 937
    reallyarunner wrote:
    ...I'm genuinely surprised at how nobody seems bothered that the tour winner can't manage to win a stage.

    With the GC so close going into the last weekend shows how competitive the tour was this year.

    You could say its even more impressive to come out on top
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  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    Cracking race, perhaps a few too many sprint stages but can't complain otherwise.

    Don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread, but let's not get our pants in an twist about certain riders being booed by fans. Just imagine the amount of pearl clutching that would happen if any of these people went to a football match. Fans have the right to cheer or boo as they please. Is it really a surprise that a lot of French fans don't like Chris Froome!?

    Also, pisses me of no end how all the GC guys who aren't in yellow seemingly "have illnesses". Grow a pair and admit you didn't have the legs, it's incredibly childish.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    mfin wrote:
    If you found this boring, you're gonna find most tours boring, so why bother watching? It's like moaning that baked beans are boring when your favourite food is baked beans on toast.

    Listening to boring people ironically moaning that the race is boring is funny though.

    If you don't like it then change the channel and don't watch it f**kwits.


    Complete nonsense backed up by zero argument.

    I found it a poor Tour, a 4 out of 10, I watched it because I like watching bike racing but relative to most grand tours this one was boring because despite the closeness of the GC there seemed a sense of inevitability that Froome would win.

    Mid way through when everyone was saying how poor it was I actually felt it was nicely poised for a big GC battle but it remained nicely poised and the battle never really came - it was the calm before the storm but we never got the storm. Ultimately I think Sky were too strong, we lost too many challengers to crashes or illness/lack of form and we needed a tougher final 8 or 9 days to really shake out who was the strongest of Uran, Bardet and Froome in the mountains.
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  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I mean, Froome would normally knock those guys both uphill and in the TT. Bardet - fine, he was younger in the past so he's had time to get stronger - but Uran? Come on. The guy would have bitten off your hand for a top 5 going into the thing.

    They were pretty much my thoughts whilst watching this year's Tour. It seemed like a pretty mediocre parcours coupled with the fact that there was no serious competition.

    Froome looked below his best to me but after Porte and Valverde crashed out he looked nailed on to win it. Especially as Quintana was absolutely exhausted from the Giro.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    DeVlaeminck wrote:

    Mid way through when everyone was saying how poor it was I actually felt it was nicely poised for a big GC battle but it remained nicely poised and the battle never really came - it was the calm before the storm but we never got the storm. Ultimately I think Sky were too strong, we lost too many challengers to crashes or illness/lack of form and we needed a tougher final 8 or 9 days to really shake out who was the strongest of Uran, Bardet and Froome in the mountains.

    I think it is pretty clear now that it wasn't Bardet.
    He said as much right after the time trial and was backed up by that shocker.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    If you're just an armchair fan of cycling then I guess the apparent lack of action or excitement may lead you conclude that grand tours can be boring. However, I suspect the majority of people on here are active cyclists and if like me you have been lucky enough to ride some of these roads in France, especially the high mountains, then you will know what it feels like to struggle and suffer like every member of the professional peloton.

    That for me is the real high drama of every stage, watching breakaways form and disintegrate. Teams vying for position to ensure they get their man to the finish. Domestiques exerting themselves to their absolute limit and beyond in service of their team leaders. GC contenders looking for any weakness in the competition that they can capitalise on to eke out seconds over many hours of racing.

    On top of all that you have the wonderful scenery that is France. What's not to like? I'm always sad every time we reach Paris and I have to wait 49 weeks for the whole circus to start again.
  • N0bodyOfTheGoat
    N0bodyOfTheGoat Posts: 6,054
    As someone who rarely watches much pro cycling (I've watched more TDF this year, possibly even more than in 2009 when in-between jobs), I think it was very telling that we did not see at least one serious bid by a GC contender to grab a chunk of time. Froome simply played a game of counter-attack, but as nobody challenged him after Aru briefly grabbed yellow for a few days before suffering, he simply did as little as he needed to win.

    Trophies don't keep an historic record of how you pummelled the opposition, they simply say who won.
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  • larkim
    larkim Posts: 2,485
    I'm neither an avid cyclist nor a serial arm chair fan but I've been gripped by this Tour. Whilst on reflection it was a bit frustrating we didn't see one stellar performance to set a single rider clear of the rest, every GC stage was finely poised between the contenders with a looming sense of anticipation that something *might* happen that would blow the leaderboard apart. The fact that it didn't seems to me to be that they were well matched physically, mentally and tactically which is what makes for a great sporting competition.

    If I could wave a wand over it and change one thing, I'd have put the second TT at the start of the third week to give the likes of Uran and Bardet the chance to roll the dice in a do or die attack as the inherent superiority of Froome as time trialist hung over those last few stages.

    But I for one wasn't bored and fully agree that the best rider won, and deservedly so. It is a shame he didn't win a single stage outright but in enough of the finales between him and his rivals he got his wheel ahead and showed he was the best out there over those three weeks.
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  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    NitrousOxide wrote:
    As someone who rarely watches much pro cycling (I've watched more TDF this year, possibly even more than in 2009 when in-between jobs), I think it was very telling that we did not see at least one serious bid by a GC contender to grab a chunk of time. Froome simply played a game of counter-attack, but as nobody challenged him after Aru briefly grabbed yellow for a few days before suffering, he simply did as little as he needed to win.

    Trophies don't keep an historic record of how you pummelled the opposition, they simply say who won.

    I watch too much pro-cycling to be strictly sane* but agree that Froome did as little (which was still huge amount) as he needed to win. I am convinced this year's strategy is pinned on Tour/Vuelta double.

    On your second comment - barring last day mishaps - Froome will have won 4 TdF and could well argue that 2 more were well within his grasp but taken away by team orders and an accident; 6 wins would put him alone as most successful GCer ever. When you are getting to that league you know longer need to pummel

    *although no depth of knowledge like some here - I still prefer to ride rather than to watch/read/study cycling.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    DFYAHKtXoAAHZ87.jpg:small


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  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,598
    I think this tour has been really up and down.

    Without the British interest and little competition the sprint stages have been duller than ever. And there's been far too many of them.

    But every chance there's been for gc action there seems to have been some, apart from the izoard stage. unfortunately there hasn't been that much chance.

    Overall I'd give it a 5/10, which I think is about as good as it can get until the non Froome GC boys up their games and the route can stop been designed to be anti Froome.
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    The Tour was like a football match where the favourites score early and set up their well drilled defence, the opposition miss a couple of half decent chances and then a late goal makes it 2-0. Basically like watching Chelsea under Mourinho's first spell.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    Above The Cows wrote:
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    Grand Tours are never boring. The general classification usually is.
    This. GTs are a spectacle, the magic and wonder isn't all in the GC. :roll:
    hypster wrote:
    .... if like me you have been lucky enough to ride some of these roads in France, especially the high mountains, then you will know what it feels like to struggle and suffer like every member of the professional peloton.
    That for me is the real high drama of every stage, watching breakaways form and disintegrate. Teams vying for position to ensure they get their man to the finish. Domestiques exerting themselves to their absolute limit and beyond in service of their team leaders. GC contenders looking for any weakness in the competition that they can capitalise on to eke out seconds over many hours of racing.
    On top of all that you have the wonderful scenery that is France ....
    Three comments I highly agree with.
    It’s a long time since I had any great interest in who wins the GC or indeed any of the jerseys (albeit sometimes I have forlornly hoped someone won’t win a particular jersey :twisted: ) and I have no interest in riders or teams from a nationality point-of-view, but evenso the magic of the event remains for me, both viewing and following it from a distance on TV, and also when present at 2-3 stages every couple of years, despite how quickly they then whizz by.

    Hypster considers those lucky enough to have ridden some of the (high) Tour roads in France will appreciate the suffering of the riders. But although I’ve ridden practically all the passes ever included in the Tour, I’m not sure that is a necessity, although to have done road cycling as a sport anywhere might be (just as armchair football commentators should best have played football one time).
    I like watching them cross a pass where I’ve been to recall my own experience, (and for the scenery as well of course), not to reflect on their effort and pain (though I suppose I might recognize those things in my subconscious).
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    RichN95 wrote:
    The Tour was like a football match where the favourites score early and set up their well drilled defence, the opposition miss a couple of half decent chances and then a late goal makes it 2-0. Basically like watching Chelsea under Mourinho's first spell.

    I think of it like the World Cup.
    You hope it's going to be all Brazilian samba football, but it's mostly Solvenia v Poland
    You'd still skip out of work to see it though :D
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • smithy21
    smithy21 Posts: 2,204
    I think in general it's been pretty meh. They managed to keep a veneer of competitiveness throughout but in reality everyone knew Froome was going to take it.

    The bottom line is that he can climb and TT and there aren't many GC contenders who can do both at the moment. Uran was in general a surprise so when Porte crashed it made it difficult to see anything other than a Froome win.

    It's ok to say it was boring if it was boring. There are always going to be a few moments when there are controversies or talking points but in general it was boring. But that's sport. You don't not watch a game of football because you suspect it might finish 0-0. It might finish 4-3 with a last minute winner.
  • dolan_driver
    dolan_driver Posts: 831
    The three-week tour is a different animal now to what it was 10 years ago. With fewer and fewer riders doping (I hope), the racing won't be as spectacular as the olden days of the 1990's and 2,000's when guys jumped of the front of the peloton, did a three-col solo ride and sauntered in for the win a la Virenque et al.

    This year's route didn't help either with fewer mountain-top finishes and an apparent sub-par Froome. He did the bare minimum to win and unfortunately that isn't much of a spectacle.

    DD.
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    The three-week tour is a different animal now to what it was 10 years ago. With fewer and fewer riders doping (I hope), the racing won't be as spectacular as the olden days of the 1990's and 2,000's when guys jumped of the front of the peloton, did a three-col solo ride and sauntered in for the win a la Virenque et al.
    I know it's a subject of opposing arguments, but I'd blame race radios easily as much, if not more, than no more doping.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    DFa4l6lXoAAAkiQ.jpg:large

    The sadness in those eyes
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  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    RichN95 wrote:
    Nicolas Portal has now won as many Tours as a DS as Cyrille Guimard did. He's only 38.

    Guimard won 6 (78,79,81,82,83,84). He was 37 by time of his the 6th victory.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Timoid. wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Nicolas Portal has now won as many Tours as a DS as Cyrille Guimard did. He's only 38.

    Guimard won 6 (78,79,81,82,83,84). He was 37 by time of his the 6th victory.
    Yeah. I got that completely wrong. I forgot Fignon was on Renault too.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Might have already been covered, but having seen the highlights was Bardet on a bad day, or was he completely over geared for the hill?

    Was really fighting the gears all the way up - did AG2R miscalculate something?
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    RichN95 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Nicolas Portal has now won as many Tours as a DS as Cyrille Guimard did. He's only 38.

    Guimard won 6 (78,79,81,82,83,84). He was 37 by time of his the 6th victory.
    Yeah. I got that completely wrong. I forgot Fignon was on Renault too.


    I'm a pedant. I really couldn't let it pass.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    Dinyull wrote:
    Might have already been covered, but having seen the highlights was Bardet on a bad day, or was he completely over geared for the hill?

    Was really fighting the gears all the way up - did AG2R miscalculate something?

    He said later that he just wasn't feeling well and knew he had bad legs. But it certainly looked like he was over geared as well.
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Dinyull wrote:
    Might have already been covered, but having seen the highlights was Bardet on a bad day, or was he completely over geared for the hill?

    Was really fighting the gears all the way up - did AG2R miscalculate something?

    I watched it all live and on the climb Bardet was riding really weird, jumping out of the saddle for one pedal stroke and then sitting down again for another. Hard to say if it was gearing that was the problem but I suggest that it might have been heat that got to him because maybe he went out too hard at the start. Steve Cummins was literally cooked and he tried to rip his skin suit off on that climb.

    The pictures of Bardet at the finish showed that he had given everything that he had left (and more) on the day. I was actually torn between Landa getting there and Bardet but in the end I was glad that Bardet stayed on the podium. He really gave it everything on that Tour.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    He'd just blown up by that point.
    _
  • larkim
    larkim Posts: 2,485
    Somewhere along the route Bardet chucked his aero visor too didn't he? And the way he lobbed his bottle in the middle, he clearly wasn't a happy lapin
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  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    hypster wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    Might have already been covered, but having seen the highlights was Bardet on a bad day, or was he completely over geared for the hill?

    Was really fighting the gears all the way up - did AG2R miscalculate something?

    I watched it all live and on the climb Bardet was riding really weird, jumping out of the saddle for one pedal stroke and then sitting down again for another.

    That's what I was getting at - could see clearly he was in his biggest sprocket but he just couldn't turn the gear. As pointed out, he'd probably popped at that stage. Seeing Froome spin up seconds later didn't help.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    Training peaks have posted Uran's power stats for the TT.

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/stag ... oad-glory/

    The climb of 1.1km at 10% in 20kmh @ 457W for 3m16s.

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