Training for a hill climb in October

cycleclinic

I have ebtered my first open hill climb catford cc. Not sure how steep it is or if 39-25 will be enough. Not even sure where it is yet.

daniel_b

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have ebtered my first open hill climb catford cc. Not sure how steep it is or if 39-25 will be enough. Not even sure where it is yet.

Do you have the chance to try it first?

This was a 10% average I think, and I managed it easily enough with a smallest gear of a 36\28.

I dare say I could have made it on a 39\25, but I don't think my time would have been as good.

maryka

5:02 for me, which is 10 secs slower than my best for only a handful of watts less. That headwind was brutal today! Well done Daniel.

daniel_b

maryka wrote:

5:02 for me, which is 10 secs slower than my best for only a handful of watts less. That headwind was brutal today! Well done Daniel.

Fine job Maryka - would you put those 10 seconds down to the conditions??

Looking forward to seeing the official results sheet - at least I know I'll be top 100

itboffin

Well done Dan

but ...I did say don't go to hard at the start :P

daniel_b

itboffin wrote:

Well done Dan

but ...I did say don't go to hard at the start :P

Thanks Stephen!

Yes indeed, as did I - but the number, and adrenaline got the better of me - I'll try and improve it for next time!
Plenty of time to practice

maryka

Yes I think the conditions were worth probably 1sec/w (for me anyway) so to go 10 secs faster today I would have needed 10w more. I did a watt or two more today, at about 1kg lighter, but went 10 seconds slower.

briantrumpet

Daniel B wrote:

itboffin wrote:

Well done Dan

but ...I did say don't go to hard at the start :P

Thanks Stephen!

Yes indeed, as did I - but the number, and adrenaline got the better of me - I'll try and improve it for next time!
Plenty of time to practice

I probably err on the slow side at the start of hillclimbs, as I always want to get the sense that I can accelerate gradually right to the end - knowing the hill, and knowing yourself - both come with experience/practice. As long as you had fun, are happy with your time on the day, and know how to improve, that's all that matters. Mind you, I'm getting out of practice on my club hillclimb in Exeter - missed it two years in a row - must try harder.

daniel_b

maryka wrote:

Yes I think the conditions were worth probably 1sec/w (for me anyway) so to go 10 secs faster today I would have needed 10w more. I did a watt or two more today, at about 1kg lighter, but went 10 seconds slower.

That's good to know!

2nd quickest you were, I would assume you are happy with that?

Not sure when the full results will be published.......

briantrumpet wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

itboffin wrote:

Well done Dan

but ...I did say don't go to hard at the start :P

Thanks Stephen!

Yes indeed, as did I - but the number, and adrenaline got the better of me - I'll try and improve it for next time!
Plenty of time to practice

I probably err on the slow side at the start of hillclimbs, as I always want to get the sense that I can accelerate gradually right to the end - knowing the hill, and knowing yourself - both come with experience/practice. As long as you had fun, are happy with your time on the day, and know how to improve, that's all that matters. Mind you, I'm getting out of practice on my club hillclimb in Exeter - missed it two years in a row - must try harder.

@Brian - you are a bit of a hero of mine, am I correct in thinking you live, or at least live a fair amount of your time in France?
Was always a plan I had, but last years debacle makes that a rather remote likelihood now

If that is you, I imagine you have some stunning climbs to get your legs in shape on?

I think your technique is very much the way to go, I just got carried away with it, too much adrenaline - even with being able to glance at my Garmin and see the average was 400W, it still took a while to wind it down - but wind it down I did, and perhaps had I not had that, I would have blown up completely - who can say.

I had a great time, REALLY enjoyed it, and was also happy with the time, but not the way I completed it - but that should be easy enough to work on and improve.

I have created 4 private segments on Strava, and split it pretty much into quarters - the 2nd quarter is the flatter of the 4, so over the next year I am hoping those 4 segments will help me analyse the best method for me to get the quickest possible time.

I also aim to boost my power as well - my target for this time next year is an FTP of circa 280, which would be a 20% increase from where it is now. As long as I can keep my weight where it is, that should be quite an added extra bit of firepower.

cycleclinic

Hill climb goodness here.

I live in Suffolk no chance to get down there before next week. What I meant might do is fit a shortened cassette say 16 to 29t as I won't need a full cassette for the climb.

daniel_b

thecycleclinic wrote:

Hill climb goodness here.

I live in Suffolk no chance to get down there before next week. What I meant might do is fit a shortened cassette say 16 to 29t as I won't need a full cassette for the climb.

16-29 sounds like a fine plan - night tight gearing then too, so you can keep your rhythm if that's a concern.

davidof

Daniel B wrote:

the strava segment time is 6:19

so as I said "Given your weight and power I'd expect your to be in the 6 minute range for your climb, maybe 5 minutes +."

daniel_b

davidof wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

the strava segment time is 6:19

so as I said "Given your weight and power I'd expect your to be in the 6 minute range for your climb, maybe 5 minutes +."

Yep, nice estimations :-)
I think with the right pacing, and ideal condition I really would have struggled to dip under the 6 minute mark with my current level of fitness.

My aim for next year will be 5:30, or hopefully closer to 5:00, sub 5:15 lets say.

My thinking being I should be able to generate more power, I didn't pace it that well, I had a bit of a cold, and finally conditions were not all that.

If I can be in tip top shape, and conditions are favourable, and my power is up, I think lopping a minute or more off that time in 12 months is entirely possible - top 20 finish will be my target - I was 59th yesterday - or at least I think I was.

My maths are as follows:
Current FTP = 234
Power for climb completed = 274
Time 6:26

*So if I can up my FTP to 280, that's a 20% increase, which should also mean I can then hold 55 watts extra, which would equate to 329, and if I take marykas estimate as theoretically each extra watt being worth a second, then then that lops it down to 5:31, and then if I can combine that with better conditions, being 100% fit, and of course pacing it properly, it should see something in the region of the 5:15 area.
The pacing bit should be easy enough to do, the rest of it will be hard work, and long hours in the garage

*That is all mental arithmetic above, entirely possible I have made a mistake.

I've just noticed a 1 mile climb in Oxford that I am contemplating too.........

bobmcstuff

Daniel B wrote:

*So if I can up my FTP to 280, that's a 20% increase, which should also mean I can then hold 55 watts extra, which would equate to 329, and if I take marykas estimate as theoretically each extra watt being worth a second, then then that lops it down to 5:31, and then if I can combine that with better conditions, being 100% fit, and of course pacing it properly, it should see something in the region of the 5:15 area.

Just a word of caution getting a 20% bump from this year's peak might be rather challenging, in any case I wouldn't get too hung up on it just yet until you see how you're progressing.

You might have had good gains so far but it gets harder!

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Good effort with a cold and getting sucked into the adrenaline of first competitive climb, hammering it a tad too early, I suspect I would be the same if I tried something like this... I suspect it's far easier to pace yourself on "just another ride" until competition riding becomes the norm.

daniel_b

bobmcstuff wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

*So if I can up my FTP to 280, that's a 20% increase, which should also mean I can then hold 55 watts extra, which would equate to 329, and if I take marykas estimate as theoretically each extra watt being worth a second, then then that lops it down to 5:31, and then if I can combine that with better conditions, being 100% fit, and of course pacing it properly, it should see something in the region of the 5:15 area.

Just a word of caution getting a 20% bump from this year's peak might be rather challenging, in any case I wouldn't get too hung up on it just yet until you see how you're progressing.

You might have had good gains so far but it gets harder!

Cheers Bob, true enough, I may well be getting a bit ahead of myself, but I'm comitted to 7 hours a week, planning to TT in the Spring, and want to get accredited for an outdoor velodrome, and perhaps have a crack at some of their race evenings.

As long as i enjoy myself that is the main thing and stay fit and healthy of course!

I guess it's the inverse of weight loss, easy at the beginning, but harder the more you progress.

I think my 'true FTP is somewhere around 243, so theoretically it wouldn't be quite as big a leap, hoping to effectively manage around 1 watt per week I guess, or 4 watts a month - we'll see how I get on!
286, if I can maintain weight, would give me a 4.5 watts per kg, which is a target I have in mind - IF I can get there, then I would attempt to get to 5w\kg, but I appreciate that might be unobtainable, either for me, or without a physical coach, but I'm certainly going to enjoy finding out.

NitrousOxide wrote:

Good effort with a cold and getting sucked into the adrenaline of first competitive climb, hammering it a tad too early, I suspect I would be the same if I tried something like this... I suspect it's far easier to pace yourself on "just another ride" until competition riding becomes the norm.

Thanks NO - yes I really thought I would just be able to ride it like I had, or similar to the measured way I had the week before, and of course I should have done, but was unable to, despite seeing the evidence on my Garmin

Spot on, I agree completely, and I am convinced I need to get to the point where I am on autopilot, and treat it just like any other ride.

Hopefully a raft of TT's should help in that respect.

One reason I am tempted to have a go at the oxford one.

briantrumpet

Daniel B wrote:

@Brian - you are a bit of a hero of mine, am I correct in thinking you live, or at least live a fair amount of your time in France?
Was always a plan I had, but last years debacle makes that a rather remote likelihood now

If that is you, I imagine you have some stunning climbs to get your legs in shape on?

I think your technique is very much the way to go, I just got carried away with it, too much adrenaline - even with being able to glance at my Garmin and see the average was 400W, it still took a while to wind it down - but wind it down I did, and perhaps had I not had that, I would have blown up completely - who can say.

I had a great time, REALLY enjoyed it, and was also happy with the time, but not the way I completed it - but that should be easy enough to work on and improve.

Yeah, that's me. Last year was a good year (11 weeks), this one disappointing ('only' 7).

TBH, France is great for getting really bike fit - partly just through my mileage (I do about 400 miles a week over there), and partly because of the terrain. But the long hills don't really train your specifically for hill climbs here, as you're talking about pacing over a climb of between 45 minutes and an hour or more. If I want to convert that fitness into a decent time on my local Exeter hill climb, then I need to do much more punchy training, specific to the slightly lumpy, short hills like Stoke Woods hill itself. There's no real substitute for getting to know how each little lump will take its toll on your legs, heart and lungs. That does apply equally to long climbs (i.e. you know what stretches on which to let people who aren't used to long hills overdo do it), but the mentailty is different. (The Porlock hill climb is somewhat closer to an Alpine ascent in length and gradient, incidentally.)

And yes, TTing is a decent way to motivate and train, as far as pacing is concerned. A lot of it is knowing how to respond to what your body is telling you, and knowing when you can override that.

EDIT - incidentally, this (col de la Bonette) would be rubbish training for a hill climb... 11,000ft of climbing in 60 miles. British hills are much better for that!

daniel_b

Hi Brian - thanks for the reply, so not living there yet, but a long term ambition?

Just signed up to your blog - scenery and roads reminds me why I love it so!

I can imagine performing in a competitive situation is something that the majority of people can only get to grips with, through multiple instances of it.

This is the next event I fancy - one scheduled for a couple of weeks, same length as Walbury, same average gradient, and near on identical fastest segment times, but steeper at the beginning.
Be interested to see if I can better my Walbury time, and maybe get closer to 6 minutes - conditions dependent of course.

https://www.strava.com/segments/12180730

VamP

Daniel B wrote:

*So if I can up my FTP to 280, that's a 20% increase, which should also mean I can then hold 55 watts extra, which would equate to 329, and if I take marykas estimate as theoretically each extra watt being worth a second, then then that lops it down to 5:31, and then if I can combine that with better conditions, being 100% fit, and of course pacing it properly, it should see something in the region of the 5:15 area.
The pacing bit should be easy enough to do, the rest of it will be hard work, and long hours in the garage

Nice to see your enthusiasm.

Two comments on the above:

1. power improvements are often not linear, it depends on your overall power profile (described in detail in the Coggan/Allen book). As your fitness develops, you may find good increase at FTP or not, you may have good improvements in your VO2max ability, or not, and you may find that your averages over certain durations don't change much, but you are able to go over threshold more frequently with better recovery. Coggan suggests some tests you can run to get more insight into your own physiology. Gives a good idea of where your strengths and weaknesses lie, and where to focus your energies.

Setting specific power goals is tempting, but becomes frustrating when your physiology won't let you go that way.

2. It may sound obvious but also with hill climbs, the faster you are the harder you can go. As the times get shorter, the higher the % of FTP you can sustain - e.g. for me I can do around 125% FTP for 6 minutes, but over 135% for 4 minutes, and close to 160% for 3 minutes.

Good luck with your journey.

daniel_b

VamP wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

*So if I can up my FTP to 280, that's a 20% increase, which should also mean I can then hold 55 watts extra, which would equate to 329, and if I take marykas estimate as theoretically each extra watt being worth a second, then then that lops it down to 5:31, and then if I can combine that with better conditions, being 100% fit, and of course pacing it properly, it should see something in the region of the 5:15 area.
The pacing bit should be easy enough to do, the rest of it will be hard work, and long hours in the garage

Nice to see your enthusiasm.

Two comments on the above:

1. power improvements are often not linear, it depends on your overall power profile (described in detail in the Coggan/Allen book). As your fitness develops, you may find good increase at FTP or not, you may have good improvements in your VO2max ability, or not, and you may find that your averages over certain durations don't change much, but you are able to go over threshold more frequently with better recovery. Coggan suggests some tests you can run to get more insight into your own physiology. Gives a good idea of where your strengths and weaknesses lie, and where to focus your energies.

Setting specific power goals is tempting, but becomes frustrating when your physiology won't let you go that way.

2. It may sound obvious but also with hill climbs, the faster you are the harder you can go. As the times get shorter, the higher the % of FTP you can sustain - e.g. for me I can do around 125% FTP for 6 minutes, but over 135% for 4 minutes, and close to 160% for 3 minutes.

Good luck with your journey.

Thanks VamP - appreciate your constructive critique and feedback :-)

I agree, I should reign it in, or I may well end up dissappointed, but we'll see how the end of this year goes, and then the first 3 months of next year, and I can always re-set my targets if it looks to be totally unachievable, in that short a term or period I guess.

I believe I have the book you speak of, just have not had the time to study it properly - perhaps this Christmas I will find time.

Yep totally get the faster you are, the harder you can go bit - makes total sense, and is a bit of a motivator in itself - your suffering for less time for one!

Cheers

Dan

VamP

Yeah, suffer less but more :-D

daniel_b

So I had a go at a second one yesterday.

Distance and gradient were apparently virtually identical, and the Strava times suggested as much, BUT last year (The first time it was run) was atrocious conditions, where as yesterday, apart from the wind, it was pretty ok, and also as it's a private road, there are precious few times up there.

My time for Walbury was 06:26, so I was simply hoping to beat this, and pace it better.

Last time I went out at 400 watts, where as this time I managed to hold it at around the 300w mark, which was my kind of target, however as it peaked and troughed more than Walbury, I struggled in the middle a bit, and then the finish line crept up on me somewhat, so frustatingly I did not 'leave it all on the hill' like the chap who overtook me did, he was unable to speak for some time, stunning effort.
My average power was 1 single watt down on that for Walbury, even though time on the climb was less, so could do better for sure.

I was just outside of the top 50......
in 51st place.
Which sounds ok right....?
Until you realise only 53 people ended up taking part

But anyway, my time up it was 05:33, which was better than I had hoped for, and I am still happy with that.
To have hit the top half, I would need to lop over a minute off that time, which at this moment in time seems like it would be quite an achievement.
Interested to have another go at Walbury at some point, and see how that goes.

I continue to train as hard as my other commitments allow, so hopefully will see continuing improvements - TT's next year is a definite.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Got a link to the segment to look at the gradients?

Well at least this time you corrected your perceived mistake from Walbury and if the segment is comparable, you improved your overall time even if the finish sprang up on you.

You would love my new mini hill rep loop, it might be a short incline, but it's steeper than anything else I've tackled this year by a country mile! And it was hidden in plain sight, parallel to Woodmill Lane that I've been using since I started my fitness quest back in January.
http://www.strava.com/segments/16314395

Five really slow loops in 24/30 gear with 2.3" On One BSC Type 1 on the Wazoo 29er rear a bit earlier, as part of a recovery ride.

daniel_b

NitrousOxide wrote:

Got a link to the segment to look at the gradients?

Well at least this time you corrected your perceived mistake from Walbury and if the segment is comparable, you improved your overall time even if the finish sprang up on you.

You would love my new mini hill rep loop, it might be a short incline, but it's steeper than anything else I've tackled this year by a country mile! And it was hidden in plain sight, parallel to Woodmill Lane that I've been using since I started my fitness quest back in January.
http://www.strava.com/segments/16314395

Five really slow loops in 24/30 gear with 2.3" On One BSC Type 1 on the Wazoo 29er rear a bit earlier, as part of a recovery ride.

Hi NO, here we go:
https://www.strava.com/segments/12180730?filter=overall

Like your loop - my gf's parents live in Swaythling, could easily go and give that a go :-)
24.6% - short but brutal!

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Daniel B wrote:

Hi NO, here we go:
https://www.strava.com/segments/12180730?filter=overall

Like your loop - my gf's parents live in Swaythling, could easily go and give that a go :-)
24.6% - short but brutal!

I could be and probably am wrong here, but if I knew that profile before the event, I would have used a strategy similar to how things played out for you on Walbury because the steepest bits on Wytham Chalet Hill are early on... Putting more effort in early to fight gravity!

Very small world regarding you having family around here.

daniel_b

NitrousOxide wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

Hi NO, here we go:
https://www.strava.com/segments/12180730?filter=overall

Like your loop - my gf's parents live in Swaythling, could easily go and give that a go :-)
24.6% - short but brutal!

I could be and probably am wrong here, but if I knew that profile before the event, I would have used a strategy similar to how things played out for you on Walbury because the steepest bits on Wytham Chalet Hill are early on... Putting more effort in early to fight gravity!

Very small world regarding you having family around here.

Yes I think you are probably right in hindsight :oops:

Oh well, next year!


There were also some steep bits further on, but more rest than I had envisaged - there were also some speed bumps (Some with cutouts in the middle, but some complete) that knocked my rhythm a bit.

Small world indeed.
Just zoomed out twice from the initial strava screen, and can see their street - Oliver Road!

Is that you joint 6th on the leaderboard?
Can see you could conceivably be delayed at the top though, by other traffic - but perhaps it is a quiet road.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Yep, that's me in 6th for an individual loop on that segment, from my little hill circuits last Friday where I did that loop for the first time (after which I created that mini loop plus ones for 5 and then 10 loops... To discover someone did 10 loops a few years ago without creating a segment! )

https://www.strava.com/activities/1239023948

I've had an on-off head cold for ~5 weeks now, so I've been sticking to hill reps, varying the intensity from very gentle to fairly brisk depending on how I felt each time I went out on either the Cube or the Voodoo. But when this lurgy finally goes, I hope to improve my times on most of those reps and then get across to the cat4s on the South Downs for the first time in a while and hopefully find bits like the final ~0.6 miles up harvesting Lane far easier after all these ascents up Dell Road.

daniel_b

NitrousOxide wrote:

Yep, that's me in 6th for an individual loop on that segment, from my little hill circuits last Friday where I did that loop for the first time (after which I created that mini loop plus ones for 5 and then 10 loops... To discover someone did 10 loops a few years ago without creating a segment! )

https://www.strava.com/activities/1239023948

I've had an on-off head cold for ~5 weeks now, so I've been sticking to hill reps, varying the intensity from very gentle to fairly brisk depending on how I felt each time I went out on either the Cube or the Voodoo. But when this lurgy finally goes, I hope to improve my times on most of those reps and then get across to the cat4s on the South Downs for the first time in a while and hopefully find bits like the final ~0.6 miles up harvesting Lane far easier after all these ascents up Dell Road.

Fair play Sir, and my commiserations, I too have suffered with lengthy staying colds like that, and they are a right pita.

I used to ride them out, but would tone down the intensity and would be more likely to do a gentle 50 than hill reps - was never brave enough to try some hardcore efforts.

I think we are down there Saturday night for a gig at the brook, so might stick the bike in the car, and have a quick go or goes at it Sunday AM - won't have long though, my gf is off to Bath with her folks for the day, and I am attempting to entertain the small one.