Training for a hill climb in October

daniel_b

Tom Dean wrote:

VamP wrote:

My go to workout for a six minute hill climb would be a 5x5 or 5x6, where you're at 120 - 130% FTP for the whole 5 or 6 minutes.

Blimey. I'm guessing you have good VO2 max power vs ftp! Or you're underestimating ft.Not many people could do that. OP aim for 110% to begin with

I too thought that initially, and perhaps 130 might be a bit optimistic for me personally, BUT on the 8 minute tests I have previously hit 110% of my resulting FTP limit, ie they multiply the average by 0.9.
So if you reduce the time from those 8 minutes, to 6 or even 5, I can see how you can argue you should be able to hold that at 120% or even 130%, though I could imagine the latter being pretty darned intensive, as that would be (for me) pushing 297 watts for 5 minutes, which I think I would really struggle with, though perhaps I could manage it once or twice.
120% would be 275 watts, when I have previously held 257 for 8 minutes.

VamP

Daniel B wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

VamP wrote:

My go to workout for a six minute hill climb would be a 5x5 or 5x6, where you're at 120 - 130% FTP for the whole 5 or 6 minutes.

Blimey. I'm guessing you have good VO2 max power vs ftp! Or you're underestimating ft.Not many people could do that. OP aim for 110% to begin with

I too thought that initially, and perhaps 130 might be a bit optimistic for me personally, BUT on the 8 minute tests I have previously hit 110% of my resulting FTP limit, ie they multiply the average by 0.9.
So if you reduce the time from those 8 minutes, to 6 or even 5, I can see how you can argue you should be able to hold that at 120% or even 130%, though I could imagine the latter being pretty darned intensive, as that would be (for me) pushing 297 watts for 5 minutes, which I think I would really struggle with, though perhaps I could manage it once or twice.
120% would be 275 watts, when I have previously held 257 for 8 minutes.

Tom's right, not everyone will be able to do that. It depends on your power profile. I will be down to 110% of FTP on the last interval unless it's a good day anyway.

Everyone's different, I have a decent VO2max, but relatively poor FTP. The trick is working out what your strengths are and then working to them.

bobmcstuff

VO2 is supposed to be roughly 120% of FTP (which is why the standard VO2 intervals in TR are at 120%) but everyone is different. TR blog reckons 118-128% for most people http://blog.trainerroad.com/how-vo2-max ... nd-it-all/

I find doing lots of intervals at 120% very difficult. But I think a lot of it might be psychological rather than physical.

neeb

My problem with that sort of interval is repetition - I could do one 5min at 125-130% at a pinch but not several. Alternatively I could do 4 at 115%. Which is better? In the event itself you will be going all-out, so intuitively it seems like a bad idea to train at 115% if you will be doing 130%+ on the day. Or is it best to do the first interval at max and then the other ones as hard as possible, even if the power is substantially less?

VamP

Coaches advise to keep the intervals as consistent as possible.

I train exclusively on the road, so it's not always possible to be 100% consistent, and I also ''enjoy'' the occasional exploration of limits. So long as you are within the target range until your last interval I don't think it matters too much.

If you go so hard in your first interval that you can't complete the workout then that's not good. If you're doing the last few intervals of z5 at z4 then that's not ideal either.

davidof

neeb wrote:

My problem with that sort of interval is repetition - I could do one 5min at 125-130% at a pinch but not several. Alternatively I could do 4 at 115%. Which is better? In the event itself you will be going all-out, so intuitively it seems like a bad idea to train at 115% if you will be doing 130%+ on the day.

do shorter intervals at VO2max

your event will only take about 5 minutes so you want to go harder in your intervals than you will in your event.

itboffin

i'm sure you've seen this already dan but bloody hell the fella riding in this video sounds like he's in a world of pain, I think he did just under 9 mins, its an audio must https://youtu.be/wnhZzaXCeZk

:-)

daniel_b

itboffin wrote:

i'm sure you've seen this already dan but bloody hell the fella riding in this video sounds like he's in a world of pain, I think he did just under 9 mins, its an audio must https://youtu.be/wnhZzaXCeZk

:-)

lol, ITB, that's actually our plumber, and I had heard of this video, but not watched it..... up until now!
Am guessing that was when it was not a closed road event, with the traffic coming down - be nice to not have to worry about that, only other faster riders coming past I guess.
I'm also fairly sure at that time he was covering it on an old 80's steel bike, but has since gone all carbon and dura ace with a Wilier something or other.

This chap seems a chunk faster and more in control of his breathing, though perhaps that meant he didn't leave it all out there on the road?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5VkPCMxwLs
Sunny conditions for both those years, hope it's at least dry this year.

World of pain about sums it up, but I guess I'll be in the same place, as you are looking to push yourself to the absolute limit.
Did you decide if you were either participating or even spectating?
I know they have said entry numbers are down sadly, only half f what they had last year at recent count.

That was actually about a 07:30 time he did there, and I know he has been training a lot, and has it down to around 06:20ish I think, which is probably quicker than I am going to manage.

Pretty much decided to finish my plan on time, and FTP this coming weekend, hoping an increased FTP, plus two flat out 8 minute efforts will be useful training for the event.
OR I might have a go at the hill at the weekend, and FTP mid week - otherwise I will only have had one visit, and two attempts up it, before the actual event, so thinking about it, that probably seems like the more intelligent option.

itboffin

Im in no shape for anything more than watching, I've been trying to get some of my fitter club mates to enter in fact one of them did a 5:30 a couple of years ago

daniel_b

Fair do's ITB, next year?

itboffin

Yeah, I'm doing the marmotte again so should be in much better shape

simon_e

itboffin wrote:

i'm sure you've seen this already dan but bloody hell the fella riding in this video sounds like he's in a world of pain, I think he did just under 9 mins, its an audio must https://youtu.be/wnhZzaXCeZk

:-)

That was 2014, Tejvan did it in 3:55 :shock:
He has a writeup from the event at http://cyclinguphill.com/newbury-r-c-hi ... bury-hill/

itboffin

i went and had a pootle up it again today, mind you it was super head windy, my advise would be go easy at the start as that's not really the actual hill, the middle section is 4% so i could see how you could overcook it there before the 7,8,9% top sections.

daniel_b

Cheers dude - planning a go at it tomorrow, rather than take it easy on the first ascent, I plan to hammer it instead with as fresh legs as possible.

itboffin

FYI i did 7:50 today after riding 35 miles of hilly practically CX route beforehand and going very easy up the climb, i think your planned target is well within your reach.

smash it!

daniel_b

Well that went not too bad - hit it pretty hard from the start, and was averaging about 300 watts, then on the flatter midsection this dropped off to around 200, and provided a bit of recovery I guess, then for the final steeper bit, I gave it pretty much everything I had, and finished with a 06:30 - average power for the segment was 261, and bearing in mind I held 257 for one of my 8 minute segments in my last ftp, I would say I 'should' be able to push it a bit more on the day - weather dependent of course.
I think conditions were pretty favourable today.

And also just noticed my cadence was up from the 83 of last time, to a much better (for me) 89 - chuffed with that.

Was very comforting to know what power I was putting out for the first and middle sections - didn't check it at all once into the last 3rd, not a conscious decision, just didn't happen, as didn't need to - debating whether to try and ride harder in that middle flatter section, or whether to use that as useful recovery for the last push.
Stayed in the saddle for the vast majority of it, which I think is the better choice for me at this moment in time.

I also wasn't a mess when I finished, which I was when I had the second attempt last time (I only went up the once this time), so all in all, pretty pleased with that, but already getting nervous about next week!

maryka

Skimmed the thread, what's the actual climb OP? Strava link etc. especially to your ride on the weekend.

daniel_b

maryka wrote:

Skimmed the thread, what's the actual climb OP? Strava link etc. especially to your ride on the weekend.

Hello maryka - hope this works, think it is public, let me know if not.

Here's my ride of the segment:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1198927531

It's the Walbury Hill Climb - And here is the segment as it appears on Strava - imho I think the segment there is ever so slightly short, as the top time on there is less than the winning time from a couple of years ago - either that or just slight discrepancies in satellite positions.

https://www.strava.com/segments/5641307

Just had a look on the leaderboard, and scanning backwards for actual power figures - bit of an anomaly with one that is only 5:04, but with an average of only 262W - 1 more than me, but a whole circa 90 seconds less.
Unless that person is incredibly light, or an efficient climber I guess - can't believe conditions would make that much of a difference.

maryka

I've raced that one a few times before so know it reasonably well. In fact I will be there Sunday.

It's a climb of two nearly-equal (in time duration) halves, a shallow one up to the left turn followed by a steep one from the turn to the finish. The quickest time will depend a bit on how aero your bike/wheels/position is for the shallow part, as there are gains to be made there at only 4% gradient. And then how light everything is for the steeper part.

Looks like from your trace that you paced it pretty well and didn't blow up on the second half. But I reckon you should aim to push a bit harder on the fastest part of the course, your watts drop too much there and that's because you need to kick your brain more to keep pushing the pedals. On the steep stuff your brain needs less convincing.

https://www.strava.com/activities/401330394/ that's my race, notice my finish vs yours. Did you flub some gear changes or something because you are all over the place in the final minute or so? Also don't forget the finish is downhill so you really need to push over the top and keep going.

You should go faster on the day just because of the adrenaline, people cheering, lighter clothes, no water bottle, etc. Watch that you don't take the first minute too hard though as that's very easy to do and it makes for quite a painful second half if you've overcooked it early.

daniel_b

Hi maryka - that's one hell of a time, and a wonderful QOM to have imho.

I notice you didn't do it last year, what level of form do you think you are in for Sunday?

Regrettably, at present, it looks like the weather might be shockingly bad on the day.

I'm pleased that my amateur analysis matches with yours, in that the area to gain time is on the flatter area around the middle - I will certainly try that on Sunday, and then hope I can hang on for the end.

Re the final minute analysis - I'm not seeing any of this data, or do not know how to, but I wonder if that is because you are a premium member and I am not?

From memory, I struggled a bit towards the end, and then do what I often seem to do, which is shift up too many gears, 2 or 3, when it gets flatter, and then need to grind to get on top of the gear, before I can force the cadence up - no idea why I do that, lack of oxygen to the brain perhaps :?

Thankyou for your words of wisdom, appreciate you taking the time, and perhaps will see you on Sunday

I see you are off well before me - hope you have a cracking ascent

maryka

If you go into Analysis in Strava (left-side menu on your ride, but only on a desktop, not the phone app) you can then drag and highlight bits of the segment and/or ride. You don't need to have Premium to do this. Looking at your last minute vs mine, your power drops considerably a few times before the finish whereas mine is smoother.

I like to sit and spin so when faced with a steeper section I don't hesitate to shift into an easier gear and keep my cadence the same (85-95). Then I can "feel" for when to change into a harder gear once I start getting on top of the gear too much, if that makes sense. I do shift gears a lot in hill climbs.

I missed it last year as it conflicted with some other hill climbs that I also do in September (Exeter CC and Minehead CC double weekend). This year no conflict and hopefully the form I had last weekend will last a bit longer. The competition in women's HCs is getting better year on year, and I said after last year that I would "retire" (though I haven't really done that ) so I haven't specifically trained for these races. So this could see me only managing the time I did 2 years ago but being beaten by women who are much better this time around!

Yes weather looks poor! Hopefully not as bad as forecast on the day.

daniel_b

Hi maryka,

thankyou - never knew that existed - a very useful tool indeed!

I now see exactly what you mean and can see what wonderfully even cadence and power lines you have for your ascent - definitely something to aspire to and try and match.

Pleased to see that my speed line (Although considerably less than yours!) is of a similar shape, but I clearly got there by using the wrong gears etc - so something to work on.
Luckily I live locally, but as the event on Sunday will only be my 4th time up it, plan to train on it a lot in the next 12 months.

You have an impressively high average cadence, and probably one that would work for me IF I can keep it there.

I expect you wil never actually completely retire perse - there will always be come competitive element in there?
Just ask Jason Kenny

Rachel Elliot(Ex NRC) is probably the fastest local female rider we have I think.
She rode Walbuty today, as part of a 35 mile commute, picked up a couple of QOM's on the way, and completed Walbury in the same time I did on Sunday!

Re weather - Metcheck thinks it will be ok, BBC still says no - hoping Metcheck is right...........

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Metcheck has been pretty awful for forecasting around Southampton most of this year, I'm far more trusting of Wunderground website/app and Dark Skies app.;)

itboffin

is your HRM broken Dan? I hope so

Speed 10.4mi/h 15.9mi/h
Heart Rate 191bpm 200bpm

daniel_b

Hey ITB, nope they are legit figures!

Was concerned myself a few years ago, but saw the Doc, who referred me to Reading hospital, where they carried out a load of tests, including a stress test on a treadmill, where I reached 211, and all was deemed to be perfectly healthy, just how I operate apparently, and not an uncommon as people think. Always had a fast heart rate when growing up too, so in the genes I guess.
Some people run to 220+ apparently.

I like to think of myself like an Italian V12......!

itboffin

I used to run 180 to +200 myself but as im aging thats dropped 30 bpm avg mind you i still maxed a 198 at the weekend

By the way the weather is looking shite for Sunday, what time are you off?

daniel_b

Interesting that yours has dropped - I'm as fit as I have ever been, and it doesn't seem to change, so reckon that is my dna doing it's thing.

I know, it looks like a complete sh1tstorm :-(

I'm not off until 11.21 I think it is.

itboffin

dry at the moment

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Hopefully he has finished the climb by now.

daniel_b

Greetings peeps - we were VERY lucky with the weather, even a bit of sunshine at one point on the way there!

I was nervous due to it being my first event, and told the pusher offer as much, but they were really good, and I got a clean start, didn't watch the numbers too much, but despite the best laid plans, I was going too hard at the beginning, holding something in the region of 400 watts, when I was meant to be more around the 300 mark - I paid for it in the 3rd quarter, but recovered enough to bring it home with some reasonable speed.

Cadence was down (84), which shows I ballsed it up a bit, and also messed up my gear changes a few times, especially at the end again - something to work on though.

Thought I was slower than my best time, but the Strava segment is shorter than the actual times area, so my 6:27 is still my best time - the strava segment time is 6:19 - which currently puts me in the top 10% for that segment.

So bearing in mind I am carrying a bit of a cold, had an interrupted nights sleep due to my 4 year old daughter, and there was a reasonable headwind, I'm pretty happy with the overall time, though appreciate there is plenty of improvements I can make - will be hoping to improve enough to bring it down to 5:30 or so next year.

Oh and power for the segment was 274, which is pretty ok, considering my ftp is 234, so that's 17% over my FTP - positive I could have gone better, and measured the effort more evenly, but it's all a learning experience.

Thanks for all the help, advice, tips etc on this thread - much appreciated.

I may have had a recovery ale as well as a shortbread.....