Training for a hill climb in October

ugo.santalucia

Your FTP is something that refers to an hour effort... as you shorten the time, the power you can sustain increases, not very linearly, so it's a bit unpredictable. However, 6 minutes is 10% of an hour, so an extra 30% should be doable. I suggest you try to go as hard as you can without looking at the figures... then after you can look at the numbers and see where you are... you have a new reference which if you want you can use.

Basically, you only know how far you can tighten a screw if you break it once or twice. If you always use a torque meter, you will never get 100% out of it

daniel_b

Thanks Ugo - yep I totally get the whole FTP thing being an estimate, and I appreciate that it's not that accurate.

I did mention the fact that to have achieved an FTP of 229, I sustained in excess of 250 watts for each 8 minute effort, so as this will be more around a 6 or 6.5 minute effort, AND I should be stronger by now, there is every argument for saying I can sustain perhaps 20, or as you say 30% more power than my alleged FTP.

However I do need to be careful to a degree, as I historically have a pretty high heart rate, compared with your average joe, but have had it checked out, and all is fine, but I just know if I go too hard, then I completely capitulate, and it's a slog to the finish, or a complete grinding halt.

Totally get what you say about taking it beyond before you know what you can handle, I would treat a cars grip limit in the same way on a test track, but I feel at this point in my training, and this close to the event, I'm not happy to go for a make or break effort - but that is something I will consider post event, as I would hope to be taking part next year and improving as a result.

Perhaps next year I will even be able to go up on feel alone :-)

VamP wrote:

FFS don't NOT turn the PM on. The anti PM fashion police don't understand that half the fun is gathering data.

Data from a hill climb is particularly valuable, as you inevitably push yourself much harder than you thought possible.

The other value is stopping yourself from going too hard at the start, so easy to do when the adrenaline is up.

I do love data, and lets be honest, I mostly bought one because I love data, and it's not an inconsiderable amount of money to have spent, so I aim to get the maximum out of its presence, both in terms of data gorging, and to help me in training for, and some actual events.

I totally get your point here as well - personally at the place I am in my training, and development, I feel like I need all the help I can get, though I kind of agree once you reach a certain level, and weight is a consideration, then the idea of stripping the bike back as far as you can makes a lot of sense.

If I also knew the climb like the back of my hand, that would also help, as I would know how i should feel at x point, and what I need left for the final rise, or when I peel off left here etc, but the likelihod is that I am only going to be able to complete the climb, due to family duties, twice, or three times at the very most prior to the event.

In my personal opinion, a power meter giving me live stats is my best chance of a successful time up the climb for ME - agreed it adds weight, and in theory I should be able to ride on feel alone, but the power meter will be a comfort blanket of sorts, as you say, ensuring I do not go out too hard (Or at least giving me the option should I take notice!), too early on.

I can see both sides very clearly, and I think it's great we all have different methods, and theories about the best ways to tackle them, I find it fascinating in fact, and quite a bit to ponder into the next year - as I say I'm not locked down about how I train or tackle events, open to change and new and interesting methodolgies.

Cheers

ugo.santalucia

Daniel B wrote:

Thanks Ugo - yep I totally get the whole FTP thing being an estimate, and I appreciate that it's not that accurate.

I did mention the fact that to have achieved an FTP of 229, I sustained in excess of 250 watts for each 8 minute effort, so as this will be more around a 6 or 6.5 minute effort, AND I should be stronger by now, there is every argument for saying I can sustain perhaps 20, or as you say 30% more power than my alleged FTP.

However I do need to be careful to a degree, as I historically have a pretty high heart rate, compared with your average joe, but have had it checked out, and all is fine, but I just know if I go too hard, then I completely capitulate, and it's a slog to the finish, or a complete grinding halt.

Totally get what you say about taking it beyond before you know what you can handle, I would treat a cars grip limit in the same way on a test track, but I feel at this point in my training, and this close to the event, I'm not happy to go for a make or break effort - but that is something I will consider post event, as I would hope to be taking part next year and improving as a result.

Perhaps next year I will even be able to go up on feel alone :-)

1) I never said the FTP is an estimate... you can measure it if you want. What I mean is that as a reference point for a 6 minutes effort is not a good one

2) Your heart rate is irrelevant... it is what it is... if you can get to 200, good for you... it's not cast in stone that good climbers have low heart rate. There are more conditions associated with low heart rate than the opposite. It's not the holy grail

3) IF your estimate of FTP is correct, then you are climbing conservatively, which is not the point of a HC, I think. I have the feeling you let the numbers rule how you should ride, rather than riding at your best and then looking at the numbers. If you look at Chris Froome, he rides up a climb within his power restrictions, but the finish is full on, no racer looks at the power on the last Km of a climb... they give what they've got.

daniel_b

All I was saying is that I have read in many places that as a true measure of what power you can hold for one hour, it is only an estimate of that, and that most people could not hold it for an hour - at least that was one article I read, which is probably contradicted by another :-)

I totally agree, at present I do let the numbers rule how I ride, to be honest that was one of the reasons I shelled out on a power meter in the first place, which was to utilise it to help me improve as a rider, and consequently enjoy my cycling more - which I do, enjoying it the most I have done in some 11 years.

After a few years, and more experience with training, then I may well not pay as much attention to it, but because I have seen so much improvement (I appreciate my power output is the smallest of smallfry in relative terms) in my own performance, through training with power, and using the subsequent figures out on the road, I could not, at this point in time, get my head around leaving that all behind, and just going on feel, especially for the one event i have planned this year.
Should I crash and burn spectacularly, I wouldn't even then have any stats to analyse to see WHY it had happened, and for a stat man like me, that would be a huge double negative

ugo.santalucia

PM is fine, but you need to know where your limits are if you want to use it correctly. You can only know where your numbers are if you test yourself. You can't use the FTP as a rule for everything. You need to know how much power you can churn out for 1 minute, for 5 minutes, for 10 minutes and so on... if you don't know these milestones the PM is completely useless... it's just a number on a screen.

As you have put so much effort into this event, you might want to know what is the max power you can produce for 6 minutes, I would think... do it on a hill, do it on a turbo, do it on a flat double carriageway... it doesn't matter, as long as you do it... then you look at that number and use it as a reference... you can't extrapolate anything from the FTP

VamP

ugo.santalucia wrote:

PM is fine, but you need to know where your limits are if you want to use it correctly. You can only know where your numbers are if you test yourself. You can't use the FTP as a rule for everything. You need to know how much power you can churn out for 1 minute, for 5 minutes, for 10 minutes and so on... if you don't know these milestones the PM is completely useless... it's just a number on a screen.

As you have put so much effort into this event, you might want to know what is the max power you can produce for 6 minutes, I would think... do it on a hill, do it on a turbo, do it on a flat double carriageway... it doesn't matter, as long as you do it... then you look at that number and use it as a reference... you can't extrapolate anything from the FTP

He'll get that number very effectively by recording the hill climb data.

With regards to the power curve across different time durations and the relationship of that curve to FTP, there is a huge amount of individual variability, so he won't know at what percentage of FTP he can ride the 6 minute climb until he's done a few max efforts and worked it out. But by collecting the data at least he can work it out.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

For what it's worth, here's the ~1.1 mile 6% segment analysis from my PB time up that bit of Harvesting Lane from Monday, having began my proper training effort from the start of "The Meon Quad" effort ~8 miles beforehand...

http://www.strava.com/activities/116998 ... /4285/4689

~25secs quicker than my second best attempt of 8 this year since mid June ( ) , having began my mid-life crisis quest to get fit again back in January. I'm ~74Kg, total weight of me and bike would have been ~87Kg on the day. I'm sure I've still lots of fitness to gain, my time isn't special, apparently in top 12% according to Stravistix plugin.
I'd hope (perhaps ambitiously) that if I was doing that Harvesting segment fresh, having simply warmed up for ~20mins beforehand, my estimated power would improve from ~3.6W/Kg to 4+.

If you aren't already, you need to find at least one hill similar to what you will face next month and gauge what you can do after warming up. And get planning your strategy.;)

ugo.santalucia

VamP wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

PM is fine, but you need to know where your limits are if you want to use it correctly. You can only know where your numbers are if you test yourself. You can't use the FTP as a rule for everything. You need to know how much power you can churn out for 1 minute, for 5 minutes, for 10 minutes and so on... if you don't know these milestones the PM is completely useless... it's just a number on a screen.

As you have put so much effort into this event, you might want to know what is the max power you can produce for 6 minutes, I would think... do it on a hill, do it on a turbo, do it on a flat double carriageway... it doesn't matter, as long as you do it... then you look at that number and use it as a reference... you can't extrapolate anything from the FTP

He'll get that number very effectively by recording the hill climb data.

With regards to the power curve across different time durations and the relationship of that curve to FTP, there is a huge amount of individual variability, so he won't know at what percentage of FTP he can ride the 6 minute climb until he's done a few max efforts and worked it out. But by collecting the data at least he can work it out.

Basically we are saying the same thing

VamP

I think you were suggesting that he shouldn't record the data. I may be wrong, I frequently am.

ugo.santalucia

VamP wrote:

I think you were suggesting that he shouldn't record the data. I may be wrong, I frequently am.

You were wrong. I suggested he used the data he records to build on, rather than staring at them while they were happening trying to match an imaginary figure based on some assumed FTP

VamP

I read this:

I wouldn't even turn it on... I would actually take it off to save some weight if at all possible.

My reading comprehension isn't what it used to be though.

ugo.santalucia

VamP wrote:

I read this:

I wouldn't even turn it on... I would actually take it off to save some weight if at all possible.

My reading comprehension isn't what it used to be though.

That was my first comment, specifically on the race... yes, I wouldn't even turn it on. Then he said he wants to ride with the PM, so I conceded, then I suggested he should make good use of it, by collecting data to use for the race riding at his max for say 6 min, rather than riding to some value deliberately chosen.

Read the all thing, not just one sentence.

VamP

I did read the whole thing.

And I was teasing. But there is a serious point - there is no ability ceiling below which PM use is inappropriate. It's a useful and fun tool for any level of cyclist who wants to improve and gain more insight into what's happening at the physiological level, and their own potential.

ugo.santalucia

VamP wrote:

I did read the whole thing.

And I was teasing. But there is a serious point - there is no ability ceiling below which PM use is inappropriate. It's a useful and fun tool for any level of cyclist who wants to improve and gain more insight into what's happening at the physiological level, and their own potential.

... If used in the ocrrect way.

sloppyschleckonds

VamP wrote:

It's a useful and fun tool for any level of cyclist who wants to improve

I stopped reading at fun

VamP

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

VamP wrote:

It's a useful and fun tool for any level of cyclist who wants to improve

I stopped reading at fun

Your attention span is impressively short.

neeb

Haven't read the whole thread but I'm also going for a hill climb in October. In my case the effort will be slightly shorter, perhaps around 3 minutes.

I'll offer some advice and also ask for some..

If you have a power meter you have a great tool for training for something like this. You basically need to work out roughly how long it will take you to do the climb at maximum effort, and train to increase your average power output over that time duration. The strategy I'm then planning to employ in the event itself is to ride the first half of the climb at my maximum sustainable power for the total estimated time and then in the second half, go all-out and forget the PM. Hopefully that will result in an average power at least as high as my PB for that time period, but with scope for exceeding it due to the adrenaline etc. It will also hopefully prevent me going too hard right at the start and fading drastically towards the top.

If you have done lots of maximum efforts on short hills before it should be fairly easy to work out roughly how long you will take just by going through your data and looking at the profiles as well as Strava leader boards. But they need to have been pre-empted and targeted max efforts, not just a half-hearted "I'll give this a go" while out on a ride that didn't have that effort as its main objective. When I look at my power curve for this year there is a little step between 1:45mins and 2:45mins that corresponds to a serious effort I made on a certain local climb.. So if you don't have any data like that the first step is to go out and do some maximum efforts on hills similar to the one in the event.

One thing that has occurred to me is that many hill climbs take place over time durations that have quite steep slopes on most people's power curves. So the people who are fast have a double advantage - firstly they probably have a higher power to weight ratio over all time durations, and secondly, because they are doing the effort in a shorter time they are working within a more favourable power zone. So there is real potential for improving drastically through training (especially with intelligent use of a PM), basically by becoming fast enough such that the event becomes, say, a maximum 2min effort instead of a maximum 3 min effort.

But the question I'd like to ask is different - let's say I have a reasonable level of fitness right now across all time durations, including FTP. If I'm training for a short hill climb in a month's time, how important is it to keep the general level of fitness topped up over that period (4 or 5 weeks), or to what extent will that take care of itself at this stage, meaning that as long as I train at the short durations needed for the event I'll be OK? Seems like a particularly pertinent question right now when the evenings are drawing in and it's much more difficult to get out for longer rides in the evening.

sloppyschleckonds

VamP wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

VamP wrote:

It's a useful and fun tool for any level of cyclist who wants to improve

I stopped reading at fun

Your attention span is impressively short.

It is where idiots are concerned

VamP

neeb wrote:

But the question I'd like to ask is different - let's say I have a reasonable level of fitness right now across all time durations, including FTP. If I'm training for a short hill climb in a month's time, how important is it to keep the general level of fitness topped up over that period (4 or 5 weeks), or to what extent will that take care of itself at this stage, meaning that as long as I train at the short durations needed for the event I'll be OK? Seems like a particularly pertinent question right now when the evenings are drawing in and it's much more difficult to get out for longer rides in the evening.

That very much depends on what else you have in mind with your fitness. I often abandon threshold work towards the end of the cross season and focus more on the top end, and pick up threshold work in February.

Bear in mind though that a drop in overall training volume is likely to result in some loss of fitness - individual variation applies. If you have a screenshot of your performance manager chart there may further insights to give.

daniel_b

neeb wrote:

I'll offer some advice and also ask for some..

If you have a power meter you have a great tool for training for something like this. You basically need to work out roughly how long it will take you to do the climb at maximum effort, and train to increase your average power output over that time duration. The strategy I'm then planning to employ in the event itself is to ride the first half of the climb at my maximum sustainable power for the total estimated time and then in the second half, go all-out and forget the PM. Hopefully that will result in an average power at least as high as my PB for that time period, but with scope for exceeding it due to the adrenaline etc. It will also hopefully prevent me going too hard right at the start and fading drastically towards the top.

Cheers Neeb - that approach I rather like, as it's a mix of the two methods, and gives a decent chance of a positive split, at least in terms of power output.

I ALWAYS feel better, if I can finish stronger than the first half, irrespective of distance involved - in contrast I hate that feeling when I am running on vapours and have nothing left in my legs for the latter half of a ride.

I would hope to get one or two more goes at the hill (This weekend did not work out) before the event, and will definitely be putting this method to the test.

davidof

I agree with Ugo, you won't have time to look at your PM. I did a similar segment to your climb tonight

https://www.strava.com/activities/11778 ... 9029529158

I wasn't particularly racing. Given your weight and power I'd expect your to be in the 6 minute range for your climb, maybe 5 minutes +. Your climb is very similar to this segment, not too steep at the start then harder at the end. You'll have to mash the big gears at the start then go hard, out of the saddle in anaerobic for the final steep climb. It's going to hurt.

Tom Dean

Pacing is vital. Look at your PM!

daniel_b

davidof wrote:

I agree with Ugo, you won't have time to look at your PM. I did a similar segment to your climb tonight

https://www.strava.com/activities/11778 ... 9029529158

I wasn't particularly racing. Given your weight and power I'd expect your to be in the 6 minute range for your climb, maybe 5 minutes +. Your climb is very similar to this segment, not too steep at the start then harder at the end. You'll have to mash the big gears at the start then go hard, out of the saddle in anaerobic for the final steep climb. It's going to hurt.

But my power meter figures are on an out front mount, right in between my hoods, I can't help but have easy visibility of it, and it will also take my mind off the pain of the climb!
It will also be useful as I can keep an eye on my cadence, and make sure I am not going to slow, or converesely too fast - in the heat of my first competitive event, I suspect it will be all too easy to get carried away and balls something up majorly.
I expect 80% of it will be seated, or even 100% as ITB prefers to tackle it, though I suspect as a standalone climb and knowing how I ride, standing for the steeper sections will work well for me in this instance.

I'd love to think I could manage sub 6, or even just over 5 as you estimate, but seeing how high my heart rate reached, and how spent I was after the 6.50 effort (Although i did recover fairly quickly), sadly I don't think that will be a reality.

Hoping to have a go this weekend coming, and will pace myself for the first half, and then try and see if I have enough puff left to go for it in the latter half - and see what that brings.
On the day, if I can get a low 6, I would be really delighted - initially I was just hoping to break 7, so that in itself is an improvement on expectations.
Getting into the 5's will need more training, more power, and more practice on the Hill - that can come in the next 12 months, and I'm targeting having a crack at it at least once a month in the next 12.

IF I can get somewhere in the region of 6:30 next time, then an early 6 is a possibility with a number adorning my jersey.

ugo.santalucia

Daniel B wrote:

It will also be useful as I can keep an eye on my cadence, and make sure I am not going to slow, or converesely too fast - in the heat of my first competitive event, I suspect it will be all too easy to get carried away and balls something up majorly.

Yes, yes... that is the whole point of racing... you should do just that... ride on adrenaline. You can ride with your power meter any other day of the year

neeb

VamP wrote:

neeb wrote:

But the question I'd like to ask is different - let's say I have a reasonable level of fitness right now across all time durations, including FTP. If I'm training for a short hill climb in a month's time, how important is it to keep the general level of fitness topped up over that period (4 or 5 weeks), or to what extent will that take care of itself at this stage, meaning that as long as I train at the short durations needed for the event I'll be OK? Seems like a particularly pertinent question right now when the evenings are drawing in and it's much more difficult to get out for longer rides in the evening.

That very much depends on what else you have in mind with your fitness. I often abandon threshold work towards the end of the cross season and focus more on the top end, and pick up threshold work in February.

Bear in mind though that a drop in overall training volume is likely to result in some loss of fitness - individual variation applies. If you have a screenshot of your performance manager chart there may further insights to give.

Not on Training Peaks right now but here's my "Fitness & Freshness" from Strava if that's any use...

Actually fitter now than I've been for a couple of years, but it's probably going to go down over the next few weeks if I can't get out in the evenings (although I'll be substituting indoor Zwift sessions, which seemed to work over the winter..)

neeb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

It will also be useful as I can keep an eye on my cadence, and make sure I am not going to slow, or converesely too fast - in the heat of my first competitive event, I suspect it will be all too easy to get carried away and balls something up majorly.

Yes, yes... that is the whole point of racing... you should do just that... ride on adrenaline. You can ride with your power meter any other day of the year

Well, I certainly wouldn't pay any attention to cadence or HR during the event - if you train to put out a certain power over a certain time period and push as hard as you can, HR and cadence will be whatever they need to be.. It's power that gets you up the hill, everything else is secondary. But I'd want to keep an eye on average power at least at the start just to avoid blowing up (or over-compensating and not going hard enough).

VamP

neeb wrote:

VamP wrote:

neeb wrote:

But the question I'd like to ask is different - let's say I have a reasonable level of fitness right now across all time durations, including FTP. If I'm training for a short hill climb in a month's time, how important is it to keep the general level of fitness topped up over that period (4 or 5 weeks), or to what extent will that take care of itself at this stage, meaning that as long as I train at the short durations needed for the event I'll be OK? Seems like a particularly pertinent question right now when the evenings are drawing in and it's much more difficult to get out for longer rides in the evening.

That very much depends on what else you have in mind with your fitness. I often abandon threshold work towards the end of the cross season and focus more on the top end, and pick up threshold work in February.

Bear in mind though that a drop in overall training volume is likely to result in some loss of fitness - individual variation applies. If you have a screenshot of your performance manager chart there may further insights to give.

Not on Training Peaks right now but here's my "Fitness & Freshness" from Strava if that's any use...

Actually fitter now than I've been for a couple of years, but it's probably going to go down over the next few weeks if I can't get out in the evenings (although I'll be substituting indoor Zwift sessions, which seemed to work over the winter..)

Can't see the image :-(

neeb

VamP wrote:

Can't see the image :-(

Edited the post and switched the image to Flikr.. any better?

VamP

neeb wrote:

VamP wrote:

Can't see the image :-(

Edited the post and switched the image to Flikr.. any better?

Yes, can see it now.

I am not familiar with the Strava F&F algorithm but assuming it's similar to Coggan's. If not then much of what follows is wrong.

You don't say what your objectives are beyond the hill climb, but assuming you just want to hang on to your fitness gains, and then build on that next year, you could perhaps reduce threshold work to one session a week, and replace one of your threshold sessions with a z5 workout, and another with a more volume focused session - z2 or z3.

That's assuming you have three threshold focused sessions a week now. Maybe you have less? I'd keep at least one threshold session through the winter, can be Zwift or whatever.

Your Fitness line has been relatively flat over the year, only a bit of increase in the last month, so if you can find the time you could definitely up things a bit.

If you're looking to race, then you need more volume AND intensity. Most people will have Fitness (TSB) around 80 - 100 and will often dig deeper fatigue holes - 30-40 followed by recovery.

daniel_b

Here' s a question for you, not specifically about the hill climb.

I'm a Trainerroad addict - my current 8 week plan would have taken me up to 1 week shy of the hill climb, so I am simply repeating last weeks efforts this week - still high effort, and will then continue as planned, so the taper and reduction in effort should them tie in with the actual event, and hopefully I will be in the best shape possible.

After the event I need to carry out an FTP - how long do you reckon I wait to let my legs recover - 3-4 days ok, perhaps with a couple of light spin sessions inbetween?
Event is on a Sunday, thinking maybe a light spin Tuesday and Wednesday morning, and then hit the FTP test early doors on Friday before work?