Training for a hill climb in October

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Leaving it fashionably late, due to the cool and gloomy weather, I headed out to the South Downs yesterday afternoon via the Meon valley Trail on my Wazoo in "frankenbike" mode (29er front with 2.35" G-One Speed, fat rear with 4.0" Jumbo Jim).

After reaching the end of the trail at West Meon, I headed for Hayden Lane to tackle Old Winchester Hill (to the top) segment. To say I was shocked with my time was an understatement, 10mins37secs, my best time so far on the Cube is 9min44secs... Think I need to put more effort in on the (~3Kg compared to frankenbike mode?) lighter road bike!
https://www.strava.com/activities/10599 ... /4857/5494

ugo.santalucia

Dinyull wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

After a rather anonymous career as a PRO rider, he can't let go and wants some fame he probably didn't get as a PRO (never heard him before). He doesn't do anything useful and IMO belongs to an increasing number of internet parassites, who manage to scrape a living doing completely pointless things. What he does is not inspiring, not different, not new and it's not even clever. What he does is called narcissism.

Of course he can do whatever he wants in this round and free world and I can think of him whatever I want too!

There you go... :-)

And you say there is a big difference with Ricco'... what is this difference? One is a former doper and the other claims he's not? Who cares who dopes and who doesn't on Strava.
Strava, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram... they are all social media... do you get upset if a friend of yours posts a touched up photo? So who cares if someone posts a "touched up" time on Strava?

Have you read the story behind Gaimon going after these KOM's?

It doesn't look like you have so: he basically goes after KOM's set by dopers. He is extremely anti-doping, in one of his video's goes back to a "charity" house thing where clean riders trying to catch their break in the pro's can live rent free (or very cheaply). Also laments that despite being one of the better climbers in the world he barely got a chance at Pro Tour level, he thinks because of doping/ers.

He's not as bitter as it sounds though and certainly not as bitter as you.

I did... did you read my post?

His quest is completely pointless and his moaning about not being given a chance is something we have heard time and time again over the past 30 years.

cycleclinic

OP go for the hill climb. Just try and find an effort you can sustain. You'll be quicker by maintaining a consistant effort rather than charging off at 600W and petering out at 150W at the top.

What ever that happens to be will your time. Interval will help. I will enter a couple this year to and after next month events I will start doing hill reps again. There is a 6minute hill when I use my commutor bike which I can do once a week. 6 passes of that once a week will help. Something like that will work for the OP.

You dont have to train on box hill to be good at climbing box hill otherwise interval training would not work. If the OP lives in the fens the ride into the wind.

You can also learn to climb seated. On long climbs I find staying seated is quicker as when out of the saddle my power output is higher and I tires more quickly. Also when doing hill reps try them at different paces. Do some passes just below FTP other at FTP a couple just above the final as fast as you can. Over time that I think is meant to improve your lactate threshold but climbing at or just below FTP still improve the power you can sustain.

itboffin

I agree with Malcolm but theres a local climb here of .5 mile which starts at 6% and peaks on a sharp left switchback at 11% at the end, now I've been 3rd or 4th for a while and planned to take the Kom then one of my bleeding club mates today goes out and smashes it, he's mph faster in the beginning and 1 mph slower than me over the steep section, so i guess you need to look at the whole profile of the climb before deciding to wind it up or blast and fade.

Grrrr i know what I'll be doing tomorrow morning

ugo.santalucia

itboffin wrote:

I agree with Malcolm but theres a local climb here of .5 mile which starts at 6% and peaks on a sharp left switchback at 11% at the end, now I've been 3rd or 4th for a while and planned to take the Kom then one of my bleeding club mates today goes out and smashes it, he's mph faster in the beginning and 1 mph slower than me over the steep section, so i guess you need to look at the whole profile of the climb before deciding to wind it up or blast and fade.

Grrrr i know what I'll be doing tomorrow morning

You also need to have a lot of faith in those GPS data. If you look at Edge hill descent in Warwickshire, you will find that the KOM is someone who AVERAGES 90 km/h... that is clearly bollox. All data for that segment make no sense at all.

I have seen segments where the vertical profile doesn't match the actual segment in question, loads of them, I'd say most of them.

As a matter of fact, the majority of short segments are bollox... times up big mountains are more reliable as the error is insignificant compared to the total time, but when you talk differences in the order of a few seconds, then GPS is completely unreliable

cycleclinic

and thats why I dont care about strava segments, it like chasing your tail. The only useful thing it does is it keeps a record of what you have done and I find out who has done what on TT's and races in my club.

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You also need to have a lot of faith in those GPS data. If you look at Edge hill descent in Warwickshire, you will find that the KOM is someone who AVERAGES 90 km/h... that is clearly bollox. All data for that segment make no sense at all.

I have seen segments where the vertical profile doesn't match the actual segment in question, loads of them, I'd say most of them.

As a matter of fact, the majority of short segments are bollox... times up big mountains are more reliable as the error is insignificant compared to the total time, but when you talk differences in the order of a few seconds, then GPS is completely unreliable

Much of what you say is because of the phone app. And if data looks wrong, just flag it.

It's only a bit of fun after all. People get far too het up about Strava.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You also need to have a lot of faith in those GPS data. If you look at Edge hill descent in Warwickshire, you will find that the KOM is someone who AVERAGES 90 km/h... that is clearly bollox. All data for that segment make no sense at all.

I have seen segments where the vertical profile doesn't match the actual segment in question, loads of them, I'd say most of them.

As a matter of fact, the majority of short segments are bollox... times up big mountains are more reliable as the error is insignificant compared to the total time, but when you talk differences in the order of a few seconds, then GPS is completely unreliable

Much of what you say is because of the phone app. And if data looks wrong, just flag it.

It's only a bit of fun after all. People get far too het up about Strava.

I don't use a phone app, I have a Garmin 200 and my data are often quite dodgy too. Apparently I managed to go 89 km/h down Edge hill... I doubt

Not to speak about vertical metres of climbing... 3500 vs 4600 for the same ride using different devices. It's all bollox and people take it seriously, as if it was the bible... like that guy who wants to make a living by getting KOMs.

A Hill climb race is the only way to work out who's boss

meanredspider

Yeah - but if the original segment was created using a phone, the profile can be rubbish. There's some flat segments in Inverness that Strava has as a "Cat 4"

But, absolutely, if you start treating it as a bible, you're fooling yourself. I like Strava because it has been fun "competing" with the guys on the Black Isle and we've had some fun with segment names. As you say, though - if you're serious, compete properly on the same course in the same conditions.

cycleclinic

Thats the odd thing is not not. Each road has been mapped and its elvation is known. Elevation can be worked out from that alone. Plot a route in strava and you get x m elevation ride that route and the garmin will show a very different number. upload into strava and correct the elevation and you get a 3rd elevation number. Strava can't even agree with itself so I do know why people sign up the the "climbing" challanges when riding into the wind sometimes means I am going up hill when in fact I am riding slightly downhill.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Yesterday, I sacrificed Bluetooth cadence data, in order to use the audio feedback in Ghostracer Pro (£3 one-off payment) to tell me how I was doing compared to my PBs (although you can choose any time on the leaderboard) on my five cat4 route in the South Downs.

It was great extra motivation and info (albeit the feedback failed completely for Harvesting Lane for some reason), giving me new PBs on the other four hills by up to 40 seconds. 8)

The only slight downer was I took it too easy between the climbs, freewheeling instead of pushing on, so the ~6mins30secs I saved by not stopping for a break at the top of Harvesting Lane only gained me ~3mins56secs.

https://www.strava.com/activities/10685 ... s/926/3111

The ~14 mile ride home after that effort was the biggest struggle to get home in a while, my legs were toast, the heat from doing the ride later than normal was a killer and I had to ration my last bit of water... Knocked back ~6 large "refillable" glasses of Pepsi Max at the pub lunch and didn't need to pee until late afternoon!

simon_e

NitrousOxide wrote:

The ~14 mile ride home after that effort was the biggest struggle to get home in a while, my legs were toast, the heat from doing the ride later than normal was a killer and I had to ration my last bit of water... Knocked back ~6 large "refillable" glasses of Pepsi Max at the pub lunch and didn't need to pee until late afternoon!

Sounds like you pushed yourself suitably, that's the kind of effort that will really improve your climbing ability. Going hard on the climbs and recovering in between is the way to reduce your overall time as well.

But I would have stopped after 1 or 2 pints of Pepsi, that stuff is absolute junk. Cordial would have been better, alternate with tap water. Remember - you are what you eat (and drink).

itboffin

Ugo the garmin 200 is trash for altitude or in fact any accurate data, i sold mine because it was so wildly out, there's little point having a device that halves your total ascent

likewise there seems to be an issue with some 500s recording double the amount of ascent, so the same junk and now very widely acknowledged poor QA from Garmin

daniel_b

Evening all, 2 months nearly on, I thought I should update.

Training has been going ok, 4.5 weeks off the bike, due to holiday and a cold has NOT helped, and it's taken me 5 weeks to get back to where I was at the last FTP :evil:

But finally this week I have started to be able to complete the turbo sessions, and feel like I've done a good job and hit the targets, with very little downtime, or back pedalling.

Had a crack at the hill on Saturday, and took the first one fairly easy, as had never actually ridden it before, and managed 7:23 I think it was. Came back down, and had another crack this time, and managed *6:48, which may or may not be accurate, but clearly a sub 7 should be within my power, which was what I was hoping for.

This could be slightly distorted, as I don't know precisely where the segment starts, so might have been moving.

So baring in mind my current FTP is 229, I managed to put out an average power of 241 across those nearly 7 minutes, which means I could go harder, as I would have been hitting 254 for one of my 8 minute efforts on the turbo, and hopefully come the day I should be a bit stronger anyway.
Although I appreciate that the turbo ftp is a constant effort with no deviation in cadence or standing complications.

The first run I spent it pretty much all seated, the second one I tinkered with a bit of time out of the saddle at the steeper points, and that seemed to work well.
I was down in my bottom (36\28) gear fairly early on, but I wanted to keep the cadence up.

Average cadence was 83, with a high of 99, and max power was 415, so not too bad in terms of peaks I didn't think, from a laymans point of view anyway!

Also down to 64.6kg, which is a negative bonus too!

So anyway, fairly enthused by that, and will keep plugging away, and see where I am in 4 weeks time.

philbar72

try for staying at 250 -255 watts. its within your means to do that I'm sure.

daniel_b

Thanks Phil, yes I reckon that is a good target to aim for, and if I manage that I can try and inch it up.

I need to check my Garmin, but I think I have it configured for lap power and either 3 or more likely 10 second power.

Does anyone have an opinion on which field\s will be most useful, or should I just go for immediate power?
My reason for not showing immediate, is that I thought it spiked all over the place - comparitively.

Thanks

Dan

dannbodge

When I train on my smart turbo I have it set to 3 sec power.

supermurph09

I'd go with 3s power and average power, especially if the climb is mainly a constant gradient, both metrics will stop you getting too excited at the start. Having said that, what you'll have to remember is that some sections will no doubt need over your intended average power. The steeper the section the harder you need to go, the 3s power will help ensure you don't go too hard.

daniel_b

Supermurph09 wrote:

I'd go with 3s power and average power, especially if the climb is mainly a constant gradient, both metrics will stop you getting too excited at the start. Having said that, what you'll have to remember is that some sections will no doubt need over your intended average power. The steeper the section the harder you need to go, the 3s power will help ensure you don't go too hard.

Thanks both, 3s and average is a done deal then.

Take what you say about the power having to curve under and above the average - suppose technically if you had exactly the right range of gears, you could in theory circumvent that, but any out of the saddle effort is going to spike it upwards I expect, especially being a punter and not a highly trained professional.

Do you guys always up a gear or two when you get out of saddle, and if there is no need to do that, presumably you've let your cadence drop too low already, and or it's suddenly become a lot steeper?

Looking forward to trying the hill again soon

itboffin

the trouble with that particular hill for me is it's always at the start or end of a bigger ride so i've never given it a real effort, that said i have ridden it more times than i can remember and know for me, its a seated effort the whole way, I did some of the other roads up that hill last week, two of them are out of the saddle at the 20% sections and one of them I might stand because the 9-10% section just goes on a bit.

My preference is have the gears i need to stay seated for the whole ride, perhaps a bailout gear if you dont know the route

VamP

Daniel B wrote:

Does anyone have an opinion on which field\s will be most useful, or should I just go for immediate power?

3s and 30s side by side give a nice insight into your immediate power trends.

ugo.santalucia

You will find the competitive end of the field will probably climb at 400 Watt, more if it is a well attended event... the second tier at 300-350. That puts you in the third tier, the sub 300W which is absolutely fine, but it's the place where one should find the people who are there to enjoy a day out, rather than those obsessing over the best strategy to deliver watts.

Basically, overthinking it on a grand scale

bobmcstuff

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You will find the competitive end of the field will probably climb at 400 Watt, more if it is a well attended event... the second tier at 300-350. That puts you in the third tier, the sub 300W which is absolutely fine, but it's the place where one should find the people who are there to enjoy a day out, rather than those obsessing over the best strategy to deliver watts.

Basically, overthinking it on a grand scale

You normally want to get the best out of yourself though, I know I do.

1.1 miles at 6% with an FTP of 229, was suggested above he aim for 255 but I feel he should be able to go slightly higher than that (especially with a number pinned on), as it should be a 6 or 7 minute effort, hopefully closer to 6!

My FTP is 265 and I would expect to be able to put out well over 300W for 6-7 minutes - but I am also about 5.5kg heavier so my power to weight wouldn't be much greater and I would probably be in a similar part of the field to OP, absolute power numbers aren't everything here.

Not sure what you actually mean by "enjoy a day out" - I would assume most people who enter a hill climb's idea of a good day out in this case would be setting the best time they could.

daniel_b

@Ugo

That all depends on ones motivations and aspirations though.

I agree I am 3rd, or even 4th tier, but who is to say I do not aspire to putting out more watts?

Additionally, on a personal note, I want to do the very best I can on the day.
I have many sporting heroes, and that's because of what they have achieved, and how they have extracted the maximum performances from themselves on a given day, or throughout their careers.

I have an aim to have an ftp of 300, by the end of next year, which isn't to say I will get there, but to have a hope of doing so I need to be maximising my output every step of the way.

I know you believe that is overthinking it, but for me it's all part of the enjoyment of the event, the weeks and months of training, and working out how to get the best possible time in my current state of fitness.

Just to add, if this was a 100 mile sportive, I would likely be more in that camp to the one I am alluding to above, but as this is a short high intensity solo blast, I think it takes a fair bit of analysis to reach the top with some power left for the final kick.

Edit, see afterwards Bob posted a similar reply.

Interested to hear your ftp there Bob, I too reckon I could hold more power than that, and yes it should be lowish 6 I would be targeting.
In the last week I feel like my power has increased, and I'm also now over 3.5w per kilo, which is a nice bonus.

I reckon the weekend before I will give it a full on effort and see how I get on, with one more between now and then if time permits.

ugo.santalucia

OK... you want to be serious about it

my 2 pence... a 7 minute hill is not to be ridden with your eyes at the power meter. By doing so you will inevitably ride conservatively. You should by now have a rough idea of how hard you can go for 7 minutes. On the day you should be able to go even a bit harder. That bit harder should come from you rather than the power meter. I wouldn't even turn it on... I would actually take it off to save some weight if at all possible.
Think what you can do to your bike to save weight. You don't need a bottle cage for example... don't need bar tape, check in the regulations whether you do need a rear brake, if not remove caliper, cable and shifter... the FD will default to the small ring, which is the one you need. You can remove the big ring and fit smaller nuts. If your cassette is made out of individual sprockets, you can remove the ones you don't need and fit plastic spacers instead. Then you can look at what you are wearing and whether you need it or not... helmets are not compulsory in hill climbs... you don't need gloves, don't need glasses, don't even need shorts with a pad... a swimming pool costume is lighter :-)

If you can shave off a kilo worth of stuff you don't need, that's worth 4 or 5 watts... a handful of seconds me thinks

daniel_b

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If you can shave off a kilo worth of stuff you don't need, that's worth 4 or 5 watts... a handful of seconds me thinks

This I very much agree with, marginal gains, or in this case losses

Down to 63.5kg this morning as well, so all going nicely on a personal heftiness front too

cld531c

Swimming costume sounds a good idea, even if the OP doesnt go any faster it may make the opponents slower :-)

ugo.santalucia

Daniel B wrote:

In the last week I feel like my power has increased, and I'm also now over 3.5w per kilo, which is a nice bonus.

Let me see... for a similar effort (6-7 minutes) I can refer to Dovers hill (incidentally many times hosted the National hill climb). My PB for the HC section is 6:09 for 137 mt elevation difference

https://www.strava.com/segments/629632

That is an estimated 330 Watts... divide by 72 kg and it works out at just over 4.5 Watt/Kg

That is a long way from my estimated FTP of around 250 Watt (these numbers per se are not that important, it is the ratio between them that matters, so so roughly +30% for a 6 minute effort)

Moral, with the numbers you quote, you should go quicker over a 7 minute climb... don't look at the power meter, just go for it FFS

daniel_b

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

In the last week I feel like my power has increased, and I'm also now over 3.5w per kilo, which is a nice bonus.

Let me see... for a similar effort (6-7 minutes) I can refer to Dovers hill (incidentally many times hosted the National hill climb). My PB for the HC section is 6:09 for 137 mt elevation difference

https://www.strava.com/segments/629632

That is an estimated 330 Watts... divide by 72 kg and it works out at just over 4.5 Watt/Kg

That is a long way from my estimated FTP of around 250 Watt (these numbers per se are not that important, it is the ratio between them that matters, so so roughly +30% for a 6 minute effort)

Moral, with the numbers you quote, you should go quicker over a 7 minute climb... don't look at the power meter, just go for it FFS

Thanks Ugo,

good figures to be going with there, and useful comparison.

I fully plan to go for it, I just like to do it in a measured, and partially scientific way (For ME that is part of the enjoyment) - I don't know my body well enough, having only been properly training for 8 months, to feel I can go up the hill purely on feel alone, not least as I have only been up it once so far!

But it's all good, we clearly target events, in different ways, and that is exactly how it should be
Good to see different approaches though, and I always have an open mind to these things.

VamP

FFS don't NOT turn the PM on. The anti PM fashion police don't understand that half the fun is gathering data.

Data from a hill climb is particularly valuable, as you inevitably push yourself much harder than you thought possible.

The other value is stopping yourself from going too hard at the start, so easy to do when the adrenaline is up.