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Maybe we are not doomed after all

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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,446 Lives Here
    pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    Apparently by 2040 HMRC will lose £35bn PA in revenue due to electric cars not paying VED and fuel taxes. Wonder what will make up the shortfall....

    It'll soon move to energy consumption and taxes on that.
    Yup.
    I am assuming "cheap" electric cars will only be cheap for a limited time.
    Could also switch to a London model, where basically it's a pay-per-drive, or even pay-per-city are-you-drive-through
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,298

    pblakeney said:

    Apparently by 2040 HMRC will lose £35bn PA in revenue due to electric cars not paying VED and fuel taxes. Wonder what will make up the shortfall....

    It'll soon move to energy consumption and taxes on that.

    Electric cars are great for moving the pollution away from where people live to power stations which tend to be out of the way, but they're only as green from a climate change perspective as the power station charging it is.

    (I know you know this, I'm just making the point)
    The trouble is that most people do not know that, even a Scottish MP who was complaining recently that they were not getting their share of electric buses in rural Scotland!
    This topic started in June 2017 with the BBC headline" Renewables provide more than half UK electricity for the first time". They did not mention that that was a peak figure and an hour later that was no longer the case because the sun had gone in. Someone reading the headlines would think that the "Green energy" job was half done back then ,when in fact over 4 years on, over the past year renewables have generated only 24.6% of UK electricity.( National grid figure).
    Electric cars do nothing to help lower CO2 in the atmosphere.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,480

    pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    Apparently by 2040 HMRC will lose £35bn PA in revenue due to electric cars not paying VED and fuel taxes. Wonder what will make up the shortfall....

    It'll soon move to energy consumption and taxes on that.
    Yup.
    I am assuming "cheap" electric cars will only be cheap for a limited time.
    Could also switch to a London model, where basically it's a pay-per-drive, or even pay-per-city are-you-drive-through
    I think it will be eye watering whichever method is chosen.
    This is based on people forgetting how much tax is in a greedy fuel company litre.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 5,133
    It’s an interesting conundrum.
    Fuel duty is a major part of general taxation. Only about 7bn goes towards roads I think I read.

    The hole doesn’t have to be filled from motoring taxes and arguably shouldn’t necessarily be.

    Conversely, if everybodies cost of travel decreases from circa 10-20p per mile to 3-4ppm, you could see increased congestion. So fully expect per mile taxation to come.

    Tax rise Rishi will love it. He’ll probably find a way to tax food banks or hospital visits to fill the gap.
  • mully79mully79 Posts: 691
    Toll roads to charge for driving on clear roads.

    Clean air charge to drive on congested roads.

    Pay tax on fuel for normal cars.

    Pay per mile for electric cars.

    Easy peasy.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 5,133
    mully79 said:

    Toll roads to charge for driving on clear roads.

    Clean air charge to drive on congested roads.

    Pay tax on fuel for normal cars.

    Pay per mile for electric cars.

    Easy peasy.

    You are Tax rise Rishi and I claim my £5.

    Oh, hang on a minute. You need to find a way to make it regressive.
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 3,758
    edited 18 February
    And I Quote!


    OOOOhhhhhhhh
    Ayrton Senna's got the voice of a tenor
    Peter Snow sings very low
    Mark Barano is a soprano
    and John Kettley, John Kettley, John Kettley
    is a weatherman
    John Kettley is a weatherman
    a weatherman
    a weatherman
    John Kettley is a weatherman
    and so is Michael Fish

    Simon Parkin's always larkin
    Eric Lane is the same
    Jonothan Ross collects moss
    and John Kettley, John Kettley, John Kettley
    is a weatherman
    Lester Piggot couldn't dig it
    David Icke rides a bike
    Richard Keys has got no knees
    and John Kettley, John Kettley, John Kettley
    is a weatherman

    Debbie Thrower's got a lawnmower
    Johnny Marr he plays guitar
    David Steele lives in Keele
    and John Kettley, John Kettley, John Kettley
    is a weatherman
    Chuck Knox has blue socks
    Andy Crane has got no brain
    Bernard Davy left the navy
    and John Kettley, John Kettley, John Kettley
    is a weatherman

    John Kettley is a weatherman
    a weatherman
    a weatherman
    John Kettley is a weatherman
    and so is Michael Fish
    and so is Billy Giles
    and so is Ian McGaskill
    so is Wincy Willis
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 3,758
    We must be producing a fair amount of power with all this wind.
  • ProssPross Posts: 32,001

    We must be producing a fair amount of power with all this wind.

    Read something on LinkedIn that 37% of our power was from wind (not sure if that was just one day last week or over a few days).

    Is it irony if climate change allows us to generate more renewable energy?
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,578
    Pross said:

    We must be producing a fair amount of power with all this wind.

    Read something on LinkedIn that 37% of our power was from wind (not sure if that was just one day last week or over a few days).

    Is it irony if climate change allows us to generate more renewable energy?
    Not really. More energy retained in the atmosphere = more potential for extracting it.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,298

    We must be producing a fair amount of power with all this wind.

    If you want to know exactly" gridwatch.co.uk" or "grid.iamkate.com" will tell you.
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 3,758
    lesfirth said:

    We must be producing a fair amount of power with all this wind.

    If you want to know exactly" gridwatch.co.uk" or "grid.iamkate.com" will tell you.
    Ah, cheers Lesfirth.
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 3,758
    Pross said:

    We must be producing a fair amount of power with all this wind.

    Read something on LinkedIn that 37% of our power was from wind (not sure if that was just one day last week or over a few days).

    Is it irony if climate change allows us to generate more renewable energy?
    Cheers, that's a fair amount. It's a shame it's not a bit more guaranteed, until recently it seemed we didn't have any for a while around my way.
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 5,103
    We've gone fromwhat was a pretty still January to a very windy February, highlighting the difficulty in relying on wind for power.
  • I've made a virus in my kitchen with my old hand mincer and some baking soda. When it goes airborne, it will ensure 100% sterility worldwide. After seven years it goes into hibernation mode for a couple of months, during which, everyone can shag like bunnies. It then becomes active for another seven years. This cycle reoccurs over a period of around 10-15 cycles, after which the world's population will be 'sustainable'. You can buy me a lager for saving the world later.
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 3,758

    I've made a virus in my kitchen with my old hand mincer and some baking soda. When it goes airborne, it will ensure 100% sterility worldwide. After seven years it goes into hibernation mode for a couple of months, during which, everyone can shag like bunnies. It then becomes active for another seven years. This cycle reoccurs over a period of around 10-15 cycles, after which the world's population will be 'sustainable'. You can buy me a lager for saving the world later.

    Blimey, theirs a rat in my kitchen, what am I going to do?
  • Your gonna get that rat, that's what your gonna do
  • ProssPross Posts: 32,001
    I assume this is pretty good news for both the environment and a British business although I've learned in the past that there is usually a negative side that gets hidden in the publicity

    https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/news/28032022/british-airways-to-power-a-number-of-flights-with-sustainable-aviation-fuel-as-it-marks-the-delivery-of-its-first-supply-from-phillips-66-limited?ref=Home
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,452
    Pross said:

    I assume this is pretty good news for both the environment and a British business although I've learned in the past that there is usually a negative side that gets hidden in the publicity

    https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/news/28032022/british-airways-to-power-a-number-of-flights-with-sustainable-aviation-fuel-as-it-marks-the-delivery-of-its-first-supply-from-phillips-66-limited?ref=Home

    I think the main issue is that there isn't that much sustainable waste available to be processed.
  • ProssPross Posts: 32,001

    Pross said:

    I assume this is pretty good news for both the environment and a British business although I've learned in the past that there is usually a negative side that gets hidden in the publicity

    https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/news/28032022/british-airways-to-power-a-number-of-flights-with-sustainable-aviation-fuel-as-it-marks-the-delivery-of-its-first-supply-from-phillips-66-limited?ref=Home

    I think the main issue is that there isn't that much sustainable waste available to be processed.
    Yeah, I suspected that might be the case. I also don't see how it saves CO2 unless it is in the production of the fuel rather than in the actual burning of the fuel as surely if you burn a carbon based material you still get CO2?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,452
    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    I assume this is pretty good news for both the environment and a British business although I've learned in the past that there is usually a negative side that gets hidden in the publicity

    https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/news/28032022/british-airways-to-power-a-number-of-flights-with-sustainable-aviation-fuel-as-it-marks-the-delivery-of-its-first-supply-from-phillips-66-limited?ref=Home

    I think the main issue is that there isn't that much sustainable waste available to be processed.
    Yeah, I suspected that might be the case. I also don't see how it saves CO2 unless it is in the production of the fuel rather than in the actual burning of the fuel as surely if you burn a carbon based material you still get CO2?
    Plants take CO2 out the atmosphere when they grow. When they decompose they release it. This is using the energy that would be released anyway, so overall no new CO2. This assumes that it isn't possible to store the waste such that it can't release the CO2 - the whole storage thing is subject to a lot of research.



  • ProssPross Posts: 32,001

    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    I assume this is pretty good news for both the environment and a British business although I've learned in the past that there is usually a negative side that gets hidden in the publicity

    https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/news/28032022/british-airways-to-power-a-number-of-flights-with-sustainable-aviation-fuel-as-it-marks-the-delivery-of-its-first-supply-from-phillips-66-limited?ref=Home

    I think the main issue is that there isn't that much sustainable waste available to be processed.
    Yeah, I suspected that might be the case. I also don't see how it saves CO2 unless it is in the production of the fuel rather than in the actual burning of the fuel as surely if you burn a carbon based material you still get CO2?
    Plants take CO2 out the atmosphere when they grow. When they decompose they release it. This is using the energy that would be released anyway, so overall no new CO2. This assumes that it isn't possible to store the waste such that it can't release the CO2 - the whole storage thing is subject to a lot of research.



    Just to be argumentative weren't all fossil fuels plants once albeit longer ago?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,452
    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    I assume this is pretty good news for both the environment and a British business although I've learned in the past that there is usually a negative side that gets hidden in the publicity

    https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/news/28032022/british-airways-to-power-a-number-of-flights-with-sustainable-aviation-fuel-as-it-marks-the-delivery-of-its-first-supply-from-phillips-66-limited?ref=Home

    I think the main issue is that there isn't that much sustainable waste available to be processed.
    Yeah, I suspected that might be the case. I also don't see how it saves CO2 unless it is in the production of the fuel rather than in the actual burning of the fuel as surely if you burn a carbon based material you still get CO2?
    Plants take CO2 out the atmosphere when they grow. When they decompose they release it. This is using the energy that would be released anyway, so overall no new CO2. This assumes that it isn't possible to store the waste such that it can't release the CO2 - the whole storage thing is subject to a lot of research.



    Just to be argumentative weren't all fossil fuels plants once albeit longer ago?
    Yes, but they are currently in storage. In the same way carbon is stored in trees.
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 3,758
    Clearing the daft draft.
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