Bonk after coffee stop (Club ride)

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

No point cycling if you have to have egg on toast!

Egg on toast is not only delicious, but it's the golden standard, when it comes to food... you need decent bakery-type brown bread with a generous slap of butter and a couple of scrambled eggs for the full monty.

Seconded. Egg on toast is one of the best.

fenix

How do you do full gas on the club ride ? Unless you're on the front all of the way you're kidding yourself surely?

And running 2 hours is a lot more calories than riding.

Alex99

Navrig2 wrote:

If you eat reasonably well and are fit(ish) you shouldn't be bonking after 23 miles.

I work on the basis that a muesli breakfast with half a banana will see me through to 50 miles with water with diluting juice. Then, if we haven't stopped en route, it's a 2nd breakfast of toast and coffee.

You might ride 50 miles having had muesli and half a banana for breakfast, but it isn't just the muesli and half banana that's seeing to your energy requirements. Not enough energy, unless it's a very big bowl.

Alex99

PhotoNic69 wrote:

Interesting scientific study being done here on the amount of carbs needed per hour when exercising to prevent liver's glycogen stores from being depleted:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/research/news/201 ... -on-carbs/

OK, so this particular study is aimed at runners but the same can be said for cyclists as his previous research used cyclists ingesting glucose vs sucrose during intense exercise. I think I'd barf if I had to eat three bananas an hour but a spoon or two of plain sugar in the bidon can be used to replace the carbs.

If you're riding even moderately hard, you can't digest enough to keep your glycogen level up. It's a basic limitation unless you're riding at 300 kcal/hour i.e. pottering and enjoying the view.

Alex99

Rick Chasey wrote:

You sure it was a bonk?

As opposed to feeling sh!t?

A bonk's pretty serious. You'll really know when it is and it's bad enough that you'll do a lot to avoid it.

It sounds more like 'cafe legs', not bonk.

Bobbinogs

Fenix wrote:

How do you do full gas on the club ride ? Unless you're on the front all of the way you're kidding yourself surely?
...

I have seen some chaps go full gas on a club ride. Basically means that are in a group just beyond them and cannot do a turn so sit on the back going flat out just to keep up..or race through their turn at the front so their effort levels are steady.

As above, a basic healthy diet should see a rider able to comfortably do 90 mins though, even going flat out. The distance is an irrelevant factor as some will go a lot further than others in that time. This isn't a bonk, it sounds like a simple case of cafe legs mixed with a insulin spike. Some good solutions above.

fenix

I'm sure we've all had riding companions who don't understand the body and think they need to FUEL the body rather than go out and train. So when they're tired - they need to eat eat eat. I blame Lucozade and co.

Note also kids at the gym clutching their lucozade sport for their awesome 4 mins on the treadmill followed by 2 mins on the rower.

team47b

jerry3571 wrote:

so I'm sure my body is used to living on a low sugar and a low carb diet. If I have carbs normally, I get quite fat so they've been seriously curbed.

How many grams of carbs per day do you consume, and are they simple or complex carbs, 90 grams of complex carbs or less per day is considered a low carb diet? On a diet Your carbs should be about 70grams if your calorie intake is about 2000 calories.

The problem with eating and resting mid exercise is that you body wants to use your blood supply for digestion so you will feel 'tired' if you try exercising at the same time.

slowbike

Fenix wrote:

Note also kids at the gym clutching their lucozade sport for their awesome 4 mins on the treadmill followed by 20 mins in the shower.

fixed that for you

dinyull

jerry3571 wrote:

stop for a coffee (3 sugars)

I think the most important point has been missed (by an Italian too), 3 chuffing sugars - why murder a coffee in such a way?

meanredspider

Dinyull wrote:

(by an Italian too),

C'mon - Italians find space in an espresso for sugar!

Takes longer to put the sugar in than it does to drink it.

slowbike

Bobbinogs wrote:

Fenix wrote:

How do you do full gas on the club ride ? Unless you're on the front all of the way you're kidding yourself surely?
...

I have seen some chaps go full gas on a club ride. Basically means that are in a group just beyond them and cannot do a turn so sit on the back going flat out just to keep up..or race through their turn at the front so their effort levels are steady.

My first ever club ride saw me at a fairly high effort level - although what killed me was my brother taking me to the front to do a "high speed" turn ... which meant I had to return to the pack and stay on someones wheel for the rest of the ride and the ride being slowed because I was struggling towards the end - iirc it was about a 50 mile run.

Mind you - I wasn't drinking sugary drinks - I did have coffee (with sugar) and cake at the 1/2way point though.

In a club run it's unlikely that all the riders will be of equal strength - you'll probably find that even those who are about the same overall speed, some are quicker up hills and others quicker on the flats - ideally they should be within range - or the ride is backed off to accomodate the slightly slower

JesseD

saw the title of this thread and thought it would be related to something completely different, was quite disappointed after reading 2 pages!

45 mile ride for me is usually 2 bidons of water or squash at most, sometimes a hydration tab in bottle 2, coffee stops are at the end of the ride and usually consist of a coffee and that's about it. No need for more on a ride that short, take a gel in case you feel ropey midway.

navrig2

Alex99 wrote:

Navrig2 wrote:

If you eat reasonably well and are fit(ish) you shouldn't be bonking after 23 miles.

I work on the basis that a muesli breakfast with half a banana will see me through to 50 miles with water with diluting juice. Then, if we haven't stopped en route, it's a 2nd breakfast of toast and coffee.

You might ride 50 miles having had muesli and half a banana for breakfast, but it isn't just the muesli and half banana that's seeing to your energy requirements. Not enough energy, unless it's a very big bowl.

Fair point. I guess I am working on an assumption that I will have had normal nutrition over the couple of days before a ride. I know I'd struggle to do 50 without a breakfast.

jerry3571

Its definitely just like a bonk I was getting. I was probably riding at 160bpm afterwards and keeping the wind off two other riders on Saturday so it was a bit blowy. I think riders who don't suffer on club rides are probably the more talented of us who can breathe through their noses at 16mph average. I mentioned my heart rate above so I'm pushing a fair bit. I'm more of a Greipel build myself and the grammes per kilo of carbs needed would be higher than the average skinny cyclist; plus mid forties now so slowing up a fair bit. We never used to stop on club rides and have started doing this. For decades we just do a ride and maybe stop at the end for a cuppa. I have no problems otherewise at all with bonking and have learnt not to be mean on rides with carbs. It's simply the stopping where the issue occurs.
As far as my diet, today was 4 crackerbread with low sugar jam (slither), and 3 apples, 1 pear, no sugar Yakult yogurt, low fat 2 Dairylea (purple ones), 1 tin of cold peas, 2 bananas, 3 dates, Huge bowl of veg, maybe crackerbread cottage cheese with salsa (no sugar in that. That's pretty much my average day. I have sweetener in my coffee.

Essentially i think it's being sat on my arse in a cafe is where it goes pear shaped. I'm amazed how people seem to go well over two hours without much to keep themselves going. Guess you lot are the quick ones with a heart rate nudging 120bpm every now and then. Thanks for the responses though. Much to mull over.

rick_chasey

It's not a bonk though mate.

webboo

I have scanned through this thread a couple of times and I can't see a mention of what other riding you do. This might be where you need to develop your fat burning capacity. Doing shorter rides on your aerobic threshold will enable you to go for longer just on water.

Alex99

jerry3571 wrote:

Its definitely just like a bonk I was getting. I was probably riding at 160bpm afterwards and keeping the wind off two other riders on Saturday so it was a bit blowy. I think riders who don't suffer on club rides are probably the more talented of us who can breathe through their noses at 16mph average. I mentioned my heart rate above so I'm pushing a fair bit. I'm more of a Greipel build myself and the grammes per kilo of carbs needed would be higher than the average skinny cyclist; plus mid forties now so slowing up a fair bit. We never used to stop on club rides and have started doing this. For decades we just do a ride and maybe stop at the end for a cuppa. I have no problems otherewise at all with bonking and have learnt not to be mean on rides with carbs. It's simply the stopping where the issue occurs.
As far as my diet, today was 4 crackerbread with low sugar jam (slither), and 3 apples, 1 pear, no sugar Yakult yogurt, low fat 2 Dairylea (purple ones), 1 tin of cold peas, 2 bananas, 3 dates, Huge bowl of veg, maybe crackerbread cottage cheese with salsa (no sugar in that. That's pretty much my average day. I have sweetener in my coffee.

Essentially i think it's being sat on my ars* in a cafe is where it goes pear shaped. I'm amazed how people seem to go well over two hours without much to keep themselves going. Guess you lot are the quick ones with a heart rate nudging 120bpm every now and then. Thanks for the responses though. Much to mull over.

You've got some ideas to try. If you feel like you're riding hard to keep up with the group, then you could be bonking AND doing the wrong thing at the Cafe. Generally speaking, if you're riding at a high intensity, you'll burn your glycogen fairly quickly as you'll get a higher % of your energy from glycogen over fat. There may be some people commenting that they don't need to eat for 50 miles etc... that may be true, but if you're working hard (whatever speed that is for you) then 2 hours can zap your glycogen. On the same ride, the fitter folk (120 BPM, not breathing hard etc...) are not burning through their glycogen as fast, so probably don't need much during the ride. They are still burning calories, but can get through the ride fine and eat normally later on.

The other thing, if you're riding with a group that is a bit fast for you but want to stick with it, conserve your energy and don't get cajoled into burning matches too early.

Alex99

Navrig2 wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

Navrig2 wrote:

If you eat reasonably well and are fit(ish) you shouldn't be bonking after 23 miles.

I work on the basis that a muesli breakfast with half a banana will see me through to 50 miles with water with diluting juice. Then, if we haven't stopped en route, it's a 2nd breakfast of toast and coffee.

You might ride 50 miles having had muesli and half a banana for breakfast, but it isn't just the muesli and half banana that's seeing to your energy requirements. Not enough energy, unless it's a very big bowl.

Fair point. I guess I am working on an assumption that I will have had normal nutrition over the couple of days before a ride. I know I'd struggle to do 50 without a breakfast.

Me too

jerry3571

Must admit I am a bit shocked at this low carb riding and think it's taunting dangerous Bonks. I have seen loads of riders and newbies get in to trouble and they usually say they are only carrying water. Keeping your liver/muscle energy reserves topped up is essential. Here's a link to a page where a great advisor to Lance Armstrong gives out is dietary advice!! He forgot to blurb about the doping though He mentions even starting using carbs at just half an hour of riding.
You'll see his name and know he's one of the Prince's of darkness. :twisted:

http://www.runnersworld.com/hydration-d ... or-runners

jerry3571

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's not a bonk though mate.

I said above I know it's not a bonk and as I said before; I'm sure someone clever knows a word for it.

Ok, after some thought I guess it might be a hypoglycemic episode?? I'm a construction worker so work with me here ok!

jerry3571

Alex99 wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Its definitely just like a bonk I was getting. I was probably riding at 160bpm afterwards and keeping the wind off two other riders on Saturday so it was a bit blowy. I think riders who don't suffer on club rides are probably the more talented of us who can breathe through their noses at 16mph average. I mentioned my heart rate above so I'm pushing a fair bit. I'm more of a Greipel build myself and the grammes per kilo of carbs needed would be higher than the average skinny cyclist; plus mid forties now so slowing up a fair bit. We never used to stop on club rides and have started doing this. For decades we just do a ride and maybe stop at the end for a cuppa. I have no problems otherewise at all with bonking and have learnt not to be mean on rides with carbs. It's simply the stopping where the issue occurs.
As far as my diet, today was 4 crackerbread with low sugar jam (slither), and 3 apples, 1 pear, no sugar Yakult yogurt, low fat 2 Dairylea (purple ones), 1 tin of cold peas, 2 bananas, 3 dates, Huge bowl of veg, maybe crackerbread cottage cheese with salsa (no sugar in that. That's pretty much my average day. I have sweetener in my coffee.

Essentially i think it's being sat on my ars* in a cafe is where it goes pear shaped. I'm amazed how people seem to go well over two hours without much to keep themselves going. Guess you lot are the quick ones with a heart rate nudging 120bpm every now and then. Thanks for the responses though. Much to mull over.

You've got some ideas to try. If you feel like you're riding hard to keep up with the group, then you could be bonking AND doing the wrong thing at the Cafe. Generally speaking, if you're riding at a high intensity, you'll burn your glycogen fairly quickly as you'll get a higher % of your energy from glycogen over fat. There may be some people commenting that they don't need to eat for 50 miles etc... that may be true, but if you're working hard (whatever speed that is for you) then 2 hours can zap your glycogen. On the same ride, the fitter folk (120 BPM, not breathing hard etc...) are not burning through their glycogen as fast, so probably don't need much during the ride. They are still burning calories, but can get through the ride fine and eat normally later on.

The other thing, if you're riding with a group that is a bit fast for you but want to stick with it, conserve your energy and don't get cajoled into burning matches too early.

Yes, that's how i see it. I tend to keep the slower riders company and only really pull the trigger in the last few miles. Well, we try to stick together these days in a splinter group. I'm doing hill repeats on Tuesdays so to get the speed up as I'm off to Majorca soon. I say to younger riders that you only see Valverde at Leige Bast' Liege in the last few K's. Don't do anything heroic until near the finish; burning matches Indeed!
It's funny as Club rides can be a gentle poodle about or a sh1t fight. Depends which Club and who shows up.

cougie

Lance also swore by epo...

If you're going to do a big ride then maybe youd need to be eating more - but you're not. And its the stop with the sugar hit that's giving you problems.

jerry3571

:idea:

cougie wrote:

Lance also swore by epo...

If you're going to do a big ride then maybe youd need to be eating more - but you're not. And its the stop with the sugar hit that's giving you problems.

I think it's a kind of Hypoglycemic thing. If energy is taken in and then burnt, I'm ok. If I then sit on my butt in a cafe and keep eating, my insulin goes up. Then I get on my bike and ride about 160bpm maybe more in to that gale on Saturday and my insulin is still sky high. This starves me of any energy and I go hypo. After a few miles of this, I take on a bit of drink (diluted apple juice) and I slowly come back round. Very similar to a bonk but its a weird one. Others on here says Insulin takes about 20 mins plus to return to normal and that fits too. I must admit I have had this a few times before. Luckily only about 4-5 miles from home.
Might have an underlying diabetes issue? :shock:
Also I think I missed my breakfast of porridge. :roll: - Jerry the Confessor.

barongreenback

jerry3571 wrote:

As far as my diet, today was 4 crackerbread with low sugar jam (slither), and 3 apples, 1 pear, no sugar Yakult yogurt, low fat 2 Dairylea (purple ones), 1 tin of cold peas, 2 bananas, 3 dates, Huge bowl of veg, maybe crackerbread cottage cheese with salsa (no sugar in that. That's pretty much my average day. I have sweetener in my coffee.

That's less than 1,000 calories. If that's a normal day then you seriously need to reassess your diet. I'm assuming you're not morbidly obese so there should be no need to restrict your calories in such an extreme way. Also that much fruit in one day is an awful lot of sugar despite the fact you're on the low sugar jam and sugar free yoghurt.

charlie_potatoes

Alex99 wrote:

It sounds more like 'cafe legs', not bonk.

THIS^

Ask the cafe if they have a turbo trainer and gently spin your legs over whilst you're having coffee/cake.
Zone 1 only though, start doing intervals and you'll look like a right twat.

joe2008

jerry3571 wrote:

I think riders who don't suffer on club rides are probably the more talented of us who can breathe through their noses at 16mph average.

In most cases, 'talent' has very little to do with it; those riders have simply trained in a way that has enabled their bodies to be much more efficient with their use of energy - primarily by burning more fat as fuel in preference to ripping through their glycogen stores in a couple of hours.

Alex99

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

It sounds more like 'cafe legs', not bonk.

THIS^

Ask the cafe if they have a turbo trainer and gently spin your legs over whilst you're having coffee/cake.
Zone 1 only though, start doing intervals and you'll look like a right fool.

Alex99

jerry3571 wrote:

Must admit I am a bit shocked at this low carb riding and think it's taunting dangerous Bonks. I have seen loads of riders and newbies get in to trouble and they usually say they are only carrying water. Keeping your liver/muscle energy reserves topped up is essential. Here's a link to a page where a great advisor to Lance Armstrong gives out is dietary advice!! He forgot to blurb about the doping though He mentions even starting using carbs at just half an hour of riding.
You'll see his name and know he's one of the Prince's of darkness. :twisted:

http://www.runnersworld.com/hydration-d ... or-runners

If you're riding for 2 hrs+ with significant high intensity work, as suggested above, eating from the start makes sense. You can't handle much more than 300 kcal/hour, so not eating is a missed opportunity.

slowbike

jerry3571 wrote:

Must admit I am a bit shocked at this low carb riding and think it's taunting dangerous Bonks. I have seen loads of riders and newbies get in to trouble and they usually say they are only carrying water. Keeping your liver/muscle energy reserves topped up is essential. Here's a link to a page where a great advisor to Lance Armstrong gives out is dietary advice!! He forgot to blurb about the doping though He mentions even starting using carbs at just half an hour of riding.
You'll see his name and know he's one of the Prince's of darkness. :twisted:

??!?!

30 years experience, TTs as well - mid 40's and you're slowing down - sorry mate - you're either a really good troll - hats off - or you've got something seriously wrong.

If this cafe bonk is normal rather than a one off - and you would normally eat normally before hand (ie not forgotten breakfast) then perhaps you need to have a diabetes check done - it may be nothing, but good to be certain.

My only recent ride on energy drink was RL100 last year - I did the whole ride on 2 750ml bottles but was desparate for just plane water at the end - club rides of up to 60 miles I'd make sure I have a decent breakfast and take a couple of bars with me, bottle(s) would be electrolyte - the club doesn't normally stop for coffee - I would be drained at the end anyway, but it's not a bonk by any stretch.
Difference between you and me? about the same age - our mass is probably distributed differently .. probably about it ...