Bonk after coffee stop (Club ride)

jerry3571

Hi,
Anyone had this issue? I get to the cafe stop, half way on a 45 mile Club run, stop for a coffee (3 sugars) and bit of cake. When back on the bike, only after about 3-5 miles of riding, I find myself getting a bit bonky. Soon as I start feeling this I get out the jelly babies and neck some more drink (sugary drink). I have a hunch that when my body stops any exercise and then starts to drink sweet coffee and eating cake, this sends up my Insulin. This insulin might be still pumping round and stopping the sugar from getting to my muscles, when I get back on the bike. I'm sure If I carried on riding without the coffee stop then this wouldn't happen. Is it better to just not have the cake and have a low sugar drink to stop an insulin spike? any help please?

ugo.santalucia

Definitively you are taking in too much sugar for such a small ride. Try water instead of sugary drink, try less sugar in your coffee and maybe have egg on toast instead of sugary cake

bendertherobot

All you need for 45 miles is water on the bike.

As far as the cake stop is concerned, still eat the cake, obviously. No point cycling if you have to have egg on toast!

navrig2

If you eat reasonably well and are fit(ish) you shouldn't be bonking after 23 miles.

I work on the basis that a muesli breakfast with half a banana will see me through to 50 miles with water with diluting juice. Then, if we haven't stopped en route, it's a 2nd breakfast of toast and coffee.

stueys

Classic sugar crash, basically a load of carbs (sugar), which the cause an insulin spike. The spike in insulin in combination with your muscles rapidly absorbing the sugar (as they are primed, the 20 minute golden window post exercise when the pathways are wide open) and your blood sugar level then falls. Hence the bonk feeling.

Swap cake for a banana or even better just have the tea (ideally with less than your 3 sugars...;-) ). Your body will see exercise stopping plus an influx of nutrition as a signal that exercise has stopped and it's time to go into recovery and rebuild mode, most of us feel leg heavy after a coffee stop, thats why. It's a general good idea to try to move from having a sugar adapted system and trying to coach your body to burn more fat. Google 'fasted exercise' or 'fasted riding' for more info on how to push your body that way.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

No point cycling if you have to have egg on toast!

Egg on toast is not only delicious, but it's the golden standard, when it comes to food... you need decent bakery-type brown bread with a generous slap of butter and a couple of scrambled eggs for the full monty.

jerry3571

Ive ridden, raced and tt for about 30 years and know that any bike rider would need to maintain the stored Liver/Muscle glucose hence having to drink sugary drinks on longer rides. If the blood glucose is exhausted (1.5 hours to 2 hours) then you're in trouble and will have a job to regain that lost energy. Having water in a bottle is only good for an hour or so of poodling. I would simply bonk badly drinking only water if I go over two hours. I've seen loads of bike riders bonk over the years where they run out of energy from not taking on enough sugars. Maintaining the body's sugar reserves is key to not bonking and trying to cycle on the open road when all energy has been used is not advisable. I used to bonk a fair bit as a teenager doing long rides and I agree with the Bernard Hinault mantra of "Eat before hungry and drink before thirsty". As far as fat burning then I tend to leave this to dieting outside of riding. I heard Abraham Olano used to go out for hours only powered by a sugar free coffee but he was training for the Tour de France. I'm sure he had medical advice too.
I agree with the above poster saying the coffee stop is where it's going wrong and I should maybe not have the cake and only have a small amount of sugar whilst sat on my butt. I know the saying, having "Coffee Legs" was meaning "getting stiff" during the coffee break but it seems I got a problem with my twitchy insulin levels. I think it might be a trick to be learned on how keep a level balance of insulin and sugar whilst having a cuppa. I assumed that any energy depletion from the previous efforts would be replenished by the Coffee Stop and that energy (sweet coffee and cake) would get dumped back in to the liver/muscle stores and insulin not be affected. I think this is not the case now and sweet food during the stop messes me up. The banana might be a better idea I guess as it has some slower release sugars which might not effect my insulin so much; maybe starch carbs might be slower release. The other two cyclists I was with had the same food but were seemingly unaffected on the ride home.
I guess if I simply think about it, if I eat sugary foods at the coffee Stop, it dumps sucrose/glucose etc in to the bloodstream to refresh my liver and muscle stores but this probably takes longer to store so the excess energy backs up causing a spike in my blood. Whilst I'm on the bike, using any ingested energy is no issue as it is being burned up. It's that half an hour of stopping is what screws it up. Might try those Naked Bars on the stop as the ingredients are made of complex carbs and protein and fats rather than the overload of simple glucose and sucrose in the cakes. Funny old game!

https://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-lo ... e_35g.html

jerry3571

Egg and Toast is a grand idea! No naughty simple sugars! I think I got a over twitchy insulin gland or summit. :roll:

ugo.santalucia

It's 20 miles to the cafe''... if you go hard it won't take enough to run out of glycogen , if you go easy you won't use much... either way you don't ned the sugary drink. I never use them.

Then at the cafe', as discussed, choose wisely

meanredspider

Take guesswork out of it and spend a small amount of cash on a meter kit like this

http://www.boots.com/accu-chek-performa ... m-10216436

Bodies are pretty complex. Once your body realises you're working hard, your liver will dump glucose into your bloodstream. Conversely, once you stop (provided you've worked hard enough), you'll get an insulin spike regardless of what you eat (the so-called magic 20-40 mins) which works to restore the glycogen in your muscles in preference to fat storage. This might be what's happening in which case eating sugars won't do any harm and potentially help. Do some measurements and learn what your body does in certain circumstances. We're all different.

ben@31

Navrig2 wrote:

If you eat reasonably well and are fit(ish) you shouldn't be bonking after 23 miles.

I work on the basis that a muesli breakfast with half a banana will see me through to 50 miles with water with diluting juice. Then, if we haven't stopped en route, it's a 2nd breakfast of toast and coffee.

Big bowl of portage for breakfast. The king of breakfasts! And maybe with some brown bread thats toasted.

I knew a guy who ate a can of rice pudding in the morning, before events?

As I like eating pasta and rice dishes anyway, I think Im always stocked up with a high amount of carbs

Lookyhere

its no wonder you see so many fat an slow cyclists, 23 miles and then another breakie/ cake ??? what do you do when u get home after another 23 miles? full roast and bottle of Merlot... lol!

and you been racing and riding for 30 years? unless you ve become diabetic (not unknown considering the amount of sugar you consume) you should have figured out by now what works.

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

No point cycling if you have to have egg on toast!

Egg on toast is not only delicious, but it's the golden standard, when it comes to food... you need decent bakery-type brown bread with a generous slap of butter and a couple of scrambled eggs for the full monty.

It is. For breakfast..........

Cake goes better with coffee.

Mind, I have to say, I've been having much more toast with butter mid ride recently rather than cake.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

No point cycling if you have to have egg on toast!

Egg on toast is not only delicious, but it's the golden standard, when it comes to food... you need decent bakery-type brown bread with a generous slap of butter and a couple of scrambled eggs for the full monty.

It is. For breakfast..........

Cake goes better with coffee.

Mind, I have to say, I've been having much more toast with butter mid ride recently rather than cake.

I have to say I got fed up of most British cake... too sugary, too creamy... I still tolerate a fruit cake and occasionally a carrot cake if it doesn't have the sugary sperm on top...

navrig2

ben@31 wrote:

Navrig2 wrote:

If you eat reasonably well and are fit(ish) you shouldn't be bonking after 23 miles.

I work on the basis that a muesli breakfast with half a banana will see me through to 50 miles with water with diluting juice. Then, if we haven't stopped en route, it's a 2nd breakfast of toast and coffee.

Big bowl of portage for breakfast. The king of breakfasts! And maybe with some brown bread thats toasted.

I knew a guy who ate a can of rice pudding in the morning, before events?

As I like eating pasta and rice dishes anyway, I think Im always stocked up with a high amount of carbs

I find I can get a more nutritional bowl of muesli at about 430Kcal against porridge at about 230kcal. Both with same milk abd half a banana.

bendertherobot

Part of the reason I also ditched carrot cake and, also, being given far too much of it as a portion.

jgsi

When the coffee stop hiatus is longer than the actual ride... you is in trouble.. funny things you can see in Strava

joe2008

jerry3571 wrote:

As far as fat burning then I tend to leave this to dieting outside of riding.

I'd start to think about fat burning/riding relationship.

ck101

I was having issues like this & other signs of my insulin levels being all over the place. Headaches after sugary foods first thing in the morning and the like.
Morning bloods were fine though and my doc suspected a pre diabetes condition, post prandial hypo glycemic was mentioned.
I began a regime of fasted cycling in the mornings, I've done nearly one every day for two weeks, I'm feeling the benefits already, more stable energy levels, not as hungry etc. etc.
It's deffo worth a try.

robbo2011

I find it is equally important to have good meal the night before the ride. If i don't eat well the night before, it doesn't matter how much breakfast i eat, i'll be low on energy during the ride at some point.

If i eat well the night before, i can go for hours the next day and hardly need to eat anything.

chippyk

Egg on toast? Brew and a piece of Victoria Sponge, or if they've got some, Chocolate Orange cake.

To be fair I did 50 miles yesterday on just some orange squash straight after breakfast, bloody hungry when I got in at lunch time.

sloppyschleckonds

jerry3571 wrote:

Hi,
Anyone had this issue? I get to the cafe stop, half way on a 45 mile Club run, stop for a coffee (3 sugars) and bit of cake. When back on the bike, only after about 3-5 miles of riding, I find myself getting a bit bonky. Soon as I start feeling this I get out the jelly babies and neck some more drink (sugary drink). I have a hunch that when my body stops any exercise and then starts to drink sweet coffee and eating cake, this sends up my Insulin. This insulin might be still pumping round and stopping the sugar from getting to my muscles, when I get back on the bike. I'm sure If I carried on riding without the coffee stop then this wouldn't happen. Is it better to just not have the cake and have a low sugar drink to stop an insulin spike? any help please?

This isn't bonking.

team47b

Lookyhere wrote:

unless you ve become diabetic (not unknown considering the amount of sugar you consume)

'Cos that's what causes diabetes... :roll:

jerry3571

I know it's not bonking in essence but it's the insulin spike starving me of sugar when I hop back on the bike. I'm sure you can say some science type word which would describe it if you like. 8)
I think if I were to be very talented and and do a club ride only breathing through my nose then I'd hardly need any sustenance but alas my heart rate is usually between 140-175, I'm chunky and live in a lumpy area which means I can easily empty my reserves well before two hours. Getting a proper bonk is a dangerous thing to do on the open roads so keeping the bonk away is paramount. Tempting to bring on a bonk by drinking water is just what I did before I sussed out how to avoid doing this. Very dangerous to do!! Very much like cycling using the local scrumpy! :shock:
I don't get hypos or anything at any other time, it's just this cafe stop thing. Might be interesting to experiment with a glucose monitor though and see what goes on. Or just eat a banana

joe2008

jerry3571 wrote:

I know it's not bonking in essence but it's the insulin spike starving me of sugar when I hop back on the bike. I'm sure you can say some science type word which would describe it if you like. 8)
I think if I were to be very talented and and do a club ride only breathing through my nose then I'd hardly need any sustenance but alas my heart rate is usually between 140-175, I'm chunky and live in a lumpy area which means I can easily empty my reserves well before two hours. Getting a proper bonk is a dangerous thing to do on the open roads so keeping the bonk away is paramount. Tempting to bring on a bonk by drinking water is just what I did before I sussed out how to avoid doing this. Very dangerous to do!! Very much like cycling using the local scrumpy! :shock:
I don't get hypos or anything at any other time, it's just this cafe stop thing. Might be interesting to experiment with a glucose monitor though and see what goes on. Or just eat a banana

You should teach you body not to be so sugar dependant, and you will have an adequate reserve of energy for many, many hours of cycling... from fat.

rick_chasey

You sure it was a bonk?

As opposed to feeling sh!t?

A bonk's pretty serious. You'll really know when it is and it's bad enough that you'll do a lot to avoid it.

photonic69

Interesting scientific study being done here on the amount of carbs needed per hour when exercising to prevent liver's glycogen stores from being depleted:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/research/news/201 ... -on-carbs/

OK, so this particular study is aimed at runners but the same can be said for cyclists as his previous research used cyclists ingesting glucose vs sucrose during intense exercise. I think I'd barf if I had to eat three bananas an hour but a spoon or two of plain sugar in the bidon can be used to replace the carbs.

fenix

I think you're overestimating the amount of energy you're using.

Runners can do half marathons taking on no extra energy. Elites often do marathons with very little taken on.

A club run is a lot easier than running a half - its probably the equivalent of 50 to 60 miles ridden. You have a bottle of energy drink on the bike to sip anyway. That's all you need really.

Try taking the coffee with no sugar and see how you go - you won't be getting that spike and you'll be feeling better for it.

jerry3571

I seen many a rider going full gas on club runs and others hardly taking a breath. I'm more of a full gas type (untalented unfortunately) so im sure my meaty carcass is quite expensive in calories to run.
For the rest of the week I only have sugar on a Friday binge and fruit so I'm sure my body is used to living on a low sugar and a low carb diet. If I have carbs normally, I get quite fat so they've been seriously curbed.
I have 75% clouded Apple juice and this helps my breathing loads on the bike. I guess that's another thread in itself (if you get asthma though it's definitely worth a go).
Just a note on half Marathon runners doing a run without any sugar then that's not more than the magic two hours we've mentioned. Two hours of medium riding without replacement of fluid and sugars would see me getting in to telly tubby world. Also, not fuelling whilst riding, I assume, means you're performance suffers. You ride slower?? Or am I just babbling information provided on a Lucozade advert? :idea:

thomasmorris

I think you'd get a similar result whatever you eat or don't. If the previous miles have been in anyway hard, whether that be tempo or a few hill top / town sign sprints or just riding at a moderate tempo. Once you relax your body will go in to recovery / repair mode and will take some warming back up.

From the length of the ride, the calories you're taking on and your experience I'd be surprised if it was an energy 'bonk' (as several other have already said). I don't think I know anyone on our club run who has more than one banana or one bar on 60 miles ride. I often take nothing. It's harder to tell what's in people bidons, but mine is just orange squash.

I think sometimes people are too quick to assume they need more fuel, when in reality they need to train getting the fuel to the engines. Obviously, there is a big market that sells 'fuel', so it's in their interest to perpetuate this idea. Plus, it's nicer to think you can get better by just buying something, rather than training / putting up with discomfort.

Really just a case of 'dead' or 'wooden' legs.

Our coffee stops seem to always be preceded with a sprint or a hill; and my legs always feel rubbish after the stop, and it seems the same no matter what I eat. But... sprinting against your mates and having a coffee and cake is two of the things that make ridding in a group better than alone, so I just accept it as one of those things.

You could try a little stretching when you get off the bike and a bit of mobility before you get back on?

You could also suggest a coffee stop 2/3 or 3/4 of the way round, so you don't have to suffer so long after the stop?

slowbike

jerry3571 wrote:

I seen many a rider going full gas on club runs and others hardly taking a breath. I'm more of a full gas type (untalented unfortunately) so im sure my meaty carcass is quite expensive in calories to run.
For the rest of the week I only have sugar on a Friday binge and fruit so I'm sure my body is used to living on a low sugar and a low carb diet. If I have carbs normally, I get quite fat so they've been seriously curbed.
I have 75% clouded Apple juice and this helps my breathing loads on the bike. I guess that's another thread in itself (if you get asthma though it's definitely worth a go).
Just a note on half Marathon runners doing a run without any sugar then that's not more than the magic two hours we've mentioned. Two hours of medium riding without replacement of fluid and sugars would see me getting in to telly tubby world. Also, not fuelling whilst riding, I assume, means you're performance suffers. You ride slower?? Or am I just babbling information provided on a Lucozade advert? :idea:

I think you're definately spiking your sugar intake.

Next club run - try a bottle of squash or (my preference) zero tab drink - no calories, just the salts ...
But - also carry with you some form of energy - may be a second bottle of juice - although I prefer solids ..
Then you can run along quite happily on zero cals for the first hour - then start on the carb intake if you really need it.

If you don't normally have 3 sugars and cake during your day then I'd stay off that amount during the club run - keep the cake, just ditch the sugars in the coffee.

On the return home, stay on the electrolytes - just ensure you've got something energy to take in case.

For not fueling whilst riding - if you've done TTs and club rides for the last 30 years I'm quite suprised - Fueling during a TT - not for a 10, probably not for a 25 - but anything over that and yes you would (IMHO) need to - there's many that don't even take a drink for a 10 - I have a mouthful of water there just incase I go through a flyfield bleurgh!

If you really are full gass for the club rides then perhaps you need to back off a bit? Or practice with taking in fewer calories - then you won't have such a meaty carcass to haul around (but then I think most of us could do with that! )