CMS hearings into the alleged culture of doping and bullying at British Cycling

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

But the current arrangement of being a contractor, not an employee, is beneficial to the footballer as well. As it is in many walks of life. There will still be an option to continue that arrangement.

Indeed. I'd guess most people who are contractors would take it over being an employee 95 times out of 100.

awavey

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

But the current arrangement of being a contractor, not an employee, is beneficial to the footballer as well. As it is in many walks of life. There will still be an option to continue that arrangement.

Indeed. I'd guess most people who are contractors would take it over being an employee 95 times out of 100.

that very much depends on how much they are getting paid for doing the same job ime, and how much they believe they are able to earn from their skillset, its not like the mid 90s anymore before IR35 came in. how do you even define if a pro athlete is "self employed" anyway ?

I know football is very different the way it operates, so best not to draw many comparisons as the top paid premier league players certainly used to set up holding companies that they were paid through, whereas your average lower league player was probably still picking up weekly wages in an envelope.

but its interesting point that you spend maybe from leaving school till your early/mid 30's living on basically a tax free bursary, maybe even in some cases in subsidised accommodation, where the hell do you then stand on NI contributions, I mean this isnt even talking about a BC pension, you wont have any state pension if you havent made any voluntary contributions

poppit

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/bbc-documentary-go-inside-british-cycling-asking-medals-worth-358829?utm_content=manual&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=cyclingweekly

blazing_saddles

poppit wrote:

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/bbc-documentary-go-inside-british-cycling-asking-medals-worth-358829?utm_content=manual&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=cyclingweekly

The BBC to be fair and even handed, after all their muck raking over the past 18 months?
More tarnish than varnish, no doubt.

Vino'sGhost

RichN95 wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

I suspect BC will try and find a compromise, not that Varnish has to accept one........Whats interesting is when cases like this (which all turn on the specific details) are put through the system the implications are widespread. EG footballers may end up having to receive millions more pounds in pension payments, season tickets need to rise above the rate of inflation to pay for it, etc etc etc.

But the current arrangement of being a contractor, not an employee, is beneficial to the footballer as well. As it is in many walks of life. There will still be an option to continue that arrangement.

Remember herself Varnish doesn't give a toss about pensions. She's never mentioned them before. But without being seen as an employee she can't move to the next level.

Yes indeed and whilst everything revolves around the specific detail etc courts and tribunals define employment status. Employment for the purpose of employment rights can be different than employment for Inland Revenue purposes. Theres potentially a lot of NI and Tax up for grabs there as well as the implications for employment rights.

The players and clubs intention and contract may very well be that the player is self employed or provides his service through some other entity which brings Tax and NI benefits and since that suits both parties and the very limited awards in the ET its unlikely either party would present a claim and argue the contrary.

HM revenue and customs looking at footballers and F1 racing drivers however may think otherwise.

Can a professional footballer substitute himself in a game?

Can a professional footballer decide to turn up or not if he's picked to play

Does a professional footballer follow a game plan and playing structure defined by the manager?

Does a professional footballer wear a uniform provided for him?

Does he decide when he'll train?

a decision could be made on the facts not just the terms of the contract.

Pross

No doubt our appeasing CEO at BC will admit it was all their fault. The latest craze in all these things seems to be to keep having investigations until they get the 'right' result i.e. the one the media demands. See also the FA with Mark Sampson.

iainf72

Is the documentary going to reveal that high-performance environments aren't very nice places?

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

No doubt our appeasing CEO at BC will admit it was all their fault. The latest craze in all these things seems to be to keep having investigations until they get the 'right' result i.e. the one the media demands. See also the FA with Mark Sampson.

The media want a sacking. It's just a blood sport. And in this case Brailsford is the 18 point Stag. Remember most of these journalists come from football where sackings are a monthly occurrance. I don't think they understand how cycling teams work.

salsiccia1

Pross wrote:

No doubt our appeasing CEO at BC will admit it was all their fault. The latest craze in all these things seems to be to keep having investigations until they get the 'right' result i.e. the one the media demands. See also the FA with Mark Sampson.

Word.

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

But the current arrangement of being a contractor, not an employee, is beneficial to the footballer as well. As it is in many walks of life. There will still be an option to continue that arrangement.

Indeed. I'd guess most people who GENUINELY GET TO CHOOSE TO BEcontractors would take it over being an employee 95 times out of 100.

FTFY in a way I would agree with....

Vino'sGhost

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

No doubt our appeasing CEO at BC will admit it was all their fault. The latest craze in all these things seems to be to keep having investigations until they get the 'right' result i.e. the one the media demands. See also the FA with Mark Sampson.

The media want a sacking. It's just a blood sport. And in this case Brailsford is the 18 point Stag. Remember most of these journalists come from football where sackings are a monthly occurrance. I don't think they understand how cycling teams work.

He's behaved as more of a be HIND than a stag though

salsiccia1

Vino'sGhost wrote:

He's behaved as more of a be HIND than a stag though

Hat.

Pross

So it appears from a report today that 'bullying' in top level sport isn't confined to cycling and 30% of all elite athletes involved in UK sport have witnessed or experienced it. Who'd have thought? Presumably all these other sports will now have to answer to the CMS committee and be threatened with a reduction in funding?

cruff

Pross wrote:

So it appears from a report today that 'bullying' in top level sport isn't confined to cycling and 30% of all elite athletes involved in UK sport have witnessed or experienced it. Who'd have thought? Presumably all these other sports will now have to answer to the CMS committee and be threatened with a reduction in funding?

I'm sure all the other sports that Britain is successful in will have to go through the same level of scrutiny and tireless campaign for justice that the Daily Mail has so heroically subjected cycling to.

Oh. Wait...

argyllflyer

Brailsford had it right all along - no nice guys at the top of pro sport, no room for sentiment - step up or ship out. A wee read of No Hunger In Paradise shows how brutal it is in football before you even get to be a full-time pro.

slim_boy_fat

Pross wrote:

So it appears from a report today that 'bullying' in top level sport isn't confined to cycling and 30% of all elite athletes involved in UK sport have witnessed or experienced it. Who'd have thought? Presumably all these other sports will now have to answer to the CMS committee and be threatened with a reduction in funding?

I assume Roan has been all over this....

Pross

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

Pross wrote:

So it appears from a report today that 'bullying' in top level sport isn't confined to cycling and 30% of all elite athletes involved in UK sport have witnessed or experienced it. Who'd have thought? Presumably all these other sports will now have to answer to the CMS committee and be threatened with a reduction in funding?

I assume Roan has been all over this....

He did the report but seemed less judgmental!

slim_boy_fat

Pross wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

Pross wrote:

So it appears from a report today that 'bullying' in top level sport isn't confined to cycling and 30% of all elite athletes involved in UK sport have witnessed or experienced it. Who'd have thought? Presumably all these other sports will now have to answer to the CMS committee and be threatened with a reduction in funding?

I assume Roan has been all over this....

He did the report but seemed less judgmental!

What a surprise! I can't see his twitter since he blocked me after I repeatedly pointed out that he seemed to pay more critical attention to certain sports and not others.

above_the_cows

Pross wrote:

So it appears from a report today that 'bullying' in top level sport isn't confined to cycling and 30% of all elite athletes involved in UK sport have witnessed or experienced it. Who'd have thought? Presumably all these other sports will now have to answer to the CMS committee and be threatened with a reduction in funding?

It's not just UK cycling either. There was a report this week into bullying in Dutch cycling.

slowbike

Bullying is a bit subjective though isn't it - some respond to the "step up or ship out" motivation - others need a more gentle touch, but can still perform as well.
Of course, it's easier just to do the hard approach - on the basis that on the whole it works - and if someone is a bit of a flower then, well, its too much effort to alter methods.

Of course, if my employer were to treat me robustly - I can just sod off to another company and get on with what I do - my skills are transferable to many different businesses. Whereas, in sport there's much less opportunity to switch (there's only 1 GB track cycling team) - plus, the athletes are the product - products are discontinued when they no longer perform adequately - and where you've only got limited space for product, that selection criteria could be quite tight.

bompington

Can you imagine the indignation if Brailsford et al had just not bothered to appear before the committee?

awavey

Dr Richard Freeman is releasing a book called "The Line: Where Medicine and Sport Collide."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/201 ... andal-new/

assume "the line" part is clear reference to Team Sky, though I suspect actually the book wont document anything we dont already know and simply blur the lines on the rest of it

RichN95.

awavey wrote:

Dr Richard Freeman is releasing a book called "The Line: Where Medicine and Sport Collide."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/201 ... andal-new/

assume "the line" part is clear reference to Team Sky, though I suspect actually the book wont document anything we dont already know and simply blur the lines on the rest of it

Interesting. It may shine a light on the realities of professional sport rather than the puritanical version some expect.

gsk82

RichN95 wrote:

awavey wrote:

Dr Richard Freeman is releasing a book called "The Line: Where Medicine and Sport Collide."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/201 ... andal-new/

assume "the line" part is clear reference to Team Sky, though I suspect actually the book wont document anything we dont already know and simply blur the lines on the rest of it

Interesting. It may shine a light on the realities of professional sport rather than the puritanical version some expect.

I suspect the slightest mention of any drugs will be jumped on by the usual lot. "Team sky admit to giving rider x 9 ibuprofen during a single day at the 2013 tour de France". My money's on Froome. Ibuprofen could result in performance gains, it's still not clear from the latest research.

gsk82

And why have I read the name "Damian Collins" in relation to two unrelated events by 8.22 on a Sunday morning?

blazing_saddles

Well, a year or so down the line and the bill has arrived for Team UK.
I am sure we are all shocked by this news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/49081756

Also the BBC making a point of their being more female, than male athletes expected for the first time, at these Olympics. Should it not matter?

gsk82

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Also the BBC making a point of their being more female, than male athletes expected for the first time, at these Olympics. Should it not matter?

Its not equality until there's no men.

m.r.m.

:roll:

Alejandrosdog

gsk82 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Also the BBC making a point of their being more female, than male athletes expected for the first time, at these Olympics. Should it not matter?

Its not equality until there's no men.

Or at least no hetrosexual white men

salsiccia1

Alejandrosdog wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Also the BBC making a point of their being more female, than male athletes expected for the first time, at these Olympics. Should it not matter?

Its not equality until there's no men.

Or at least no hetrosexual white men

Endangered species, aren't we :roll: