eTap : worth it or it's just a poser thing ?

shortfall

What's wrong with wanting to make your bike look more desirable anyway? Functionality and durability are top of my purchase decisions but aesthetics are important. I don't want to ride round on something that looks like a bag of sh1te and I'm not ashamed to say it.

paul64

I still feel spoiled by 10 speed Veloce (wasn't expecting it to be so smooth, button changes and brake modulation from the hoods appreciated with every mile), same with Ultegra 6600 (hood tops perfect for large hands, left shifter up shifts kindest on the hands without needing arthritic effort). So for me the appeal of etap is that I still like my 10 speed SRAM Rival but not the left shifter effort required on my hand, particularly on longer rides or in the winter. But I won't pay the huge amount needed to solve it until it trickles down to Force at least.

We're spoiled by the group sets of the past 10 years no matter which brand, I like to see the continual progress and I know R&D has to be recouped buts I don't like how we've been forced from 9 to 10 to 11 speed, nor the premium pricing but you're either prepared to pay or you're not. I just wish the companies would settle on a configuration then refine them which you pay for if you want and which remain compatible with what you already have.

raisinberry777

paul64 wrote:

buts I don't like how we've been forced from 9 to 10 to 11 speed, nor the premium pricing but you're either prepared to pay or you're not.

What are you talking about? 9/10 speed consumables are still very easy to buy, whether it be chains, cassettes, bottom brackets or chainrings in either Shimano or Campagnolo variants (or third party replacements, if preferred), not to mention the lower demand leads to lower prices.

sloppyschleckonds

meanredspider wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Don't think so. Everyone wants to be noticed and new and shiny tends to make it happen.

Blimey - strange and shallow view of the world

Go on, just accept that some people may think differently to you, just for once.

sloppyschleckonds

meanredspider wrote:

I'm saved from need to keep you in mind because you feel obliged to comment on every thread often just to say that you don't think the thread is necessary/useful/generally to your liking. That's a pretty good impression an arrogant tw@t you've got going there...

Aren't you getting a bit carried away with yourself on a public forum?

ugo.santalucia

paul64 wrote:

We're spoiled by the group sets of the past 10 years no matter which brand, I like to see the continual progress and I know R&D has to be recouped buts I don't like how we've been forced from 9 to 10 to 11 speed, nor the premium pricing but you're either prepared to pay or you're not. I just wish the companies would settle on a configuration then refine them which you pay for if you want and which remain compatible with what you already have.

I think the days when innovation was brought in to solve problems have long gone.

BTW: I decided to remain on 9 speed and it's still fine and catered for

meanredspider

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Don't think so. Everyone wants to be noticed and new and shiny tends to make it happen.

Blimey - strange and shallow view of the world

Go on, just accept that some people may think differently to you, just for once.

Well - I could go through the thread above and quote all that of the other people who have said the same thing but, as it's you, I can't be @rsed...

I'm flattered by all the personal attention though . You disappeared for a few days over Xmas and the forum wasn't anything like as much fun...

imposter2.0

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I'm saved from need to keep you in mind because you feel obliged to comment on every thread often just to say that you don't think the thread is necessary/useful/generally to your liking. That's a pretty good impression an arrogant tw@t you've got going there...

Aren't you getting a bit carried away with yourself on a public forum?

That's what narcissists do, sadly...

meanredspider

Imposter wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I'm saved from need to keep you in mind because you feel obliged to comment on every thread often just to say that you don't think the thread is necessary/useful/generally to your liking. That's a pretty good impression an arrogant tw@t you've got going there...

Aren't you getting a bit carried away with yourself on a public forum?

That's what narcissists do, sadly...

Ah - cool - a tag team 8)

imposter2.0

meanredspider wrote:

Ah - cool - a tag team 8)

Or alternatively, two people who happen to hold the same opinion of you.

meanredspider

Imposter wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Ah - cool - a tag team 8)

Or alternatively, two people who happen to hold the same opinion of you.

I can't think of two people I worry less about though. Except that I do enjoy Sloppy's single sentences so the forum would be far more dull without him.

gweeds

Anyway.....

Back to eTap....

meanredspider

Gweeds wrote:

Anyway.....

Back to eTap....

Well exactly.

I think the OP should give it a try if he wants to. It'll be fine though there is the risk they'll bring out far more functionality in a second generation.

js14

Imposter wrote:

Not really directly comparable though, is it? E-tap is transmitting a basic, 'binary style' one-way signal to a receiver and the mech either moves one way or the other as a result. There is obviously no complex or multiplex information to process/relay, such as there would be for a vehicle's engine management or driver info system.

A quick search on internet tells me that eTap uses a two way wireless communication protocol from the IEEE 802.15.4 standard (same family as ZigBee ) and operates at 2.4GHz. Curiously the rear derailleur also seems to have ANT+ capabilities.

Wireless is nice to have for the amateur mechanic who wants to upgrade his bike. But I don't think it is a big selling point for a bike manufacturer installing an electronic shifting system in the factory. Shimano has such a huge advantage of product and spares availability and distribution channels, that SRAM would need to undercut the DI2 prices to tempt me to go with their eTap system.

noodleman

JS14 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Not really directly comparable though, is it? E-tap is transmitting a basic, 'binary style' one-way signal to a receiver and the mech either moves one way or the other as a result. There is obviously no complex or multiplex information to process/relay, such as there would be for a vehicle's engine management or driver info system.

A quick search on internet tells me that eTap uses a two way wireless communication protocol from the IEEE 802.15.4 standard (same family as ZigBee ) and operates at 2.4GHz. Curiously the rear derailleur also seems to have ANT+ capabilities.

Wireless is nice to have for the amateur mechanic who wants to upgrade his bike. But I don't think it is a big selling point for a bike manufacturer installing an electronic shifting system in the factory. Shimano has such a huge advantage of product and spares availability and distribution channels, that SRAM would need to undercut the DI2 prices to tempt me to go with their eTap system.

Don't think sram spares are hard to get hold of. Amateur mechanic? Who needs to be a mechanic with wireless systems? That's the whole point, fit and forget!

Hinaultscrapcousin

This bourgeois line of discussion is sickening, the fixed wheel is the bike of the proletariat...

On a serious note, set up times aside (which unless you are the busiest person in the world I don't get) I see no benefit in eTap at the moment. Requiring both paddles for the system to work seems like a major downside to me to be honest. Other than that I can't really see much difference between it and Di2/EPS for the vast majority of users. Hopefully it works well and is reliable, but based on past brands histories I think I'd be waiting until gen 2 or 3 before I was willing to consider it. But then I'm happy with 10 speed 105 so I may not be the best person to ask (although possibly more objective than many in this tread).

stueys

Just read through the 6 pages of this, not sure I learnt much ;-)

I run di2, as I've posted on the forum before, for me electronic doesn't do anything differently than mechanical but it does improve every part of the shifting experience. I wouldn't go back to mechanical, for comparison purposes my nice bikes have had DA 7900, DA 9000 and now 9070.

Re etap, I think sram have done a great job at producing something that isn't 'me too'. The design is innovative, I can see the advantages of wireless (less holes in frames, less to rattle) but equally I don't believe wireless can be as reliable as a wired connection. So I would want to see more out in the wild to prove reliability before I jumped onboard, the potential advantages aren't significant enough to warrant my perceived reliability issue.

bianchimoon

I really like the idea of these new tangled elctrickery changing devices, will there be a down tube shifter version available anytime soon?

meanredspider

bianchimoon wrote:

I really like the idea of these new tangled elctrickery changing devices, will there be a down tube shifter version available anytime soon?

This is where I think the manufacturers need to go next. The design of shifters has come from the need to pull a bit of wire to shift gear. With electronic, you don't need to pull a bit of wire. There's probably a better way of actuating a shift with this constraint removed - in the same way that paddle shift on cars is now replacing the gearstick. There was an April Fool thing a year or two back about shifting with your butt cheeks through your saddle. Daft idea but the point is there.

Hinaultscrapcousin

Paddle shift is replacing gear sticks because it means you don't have to move your hands from the wheel. Your hands still need to cover the brakes so other than moving to a single lever with buttons I'm not sure we'll see much development beyond the sprint switches etc. that are already available.

meanredspider

Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:

Paddle shift is replacing gear sticks because it means you don't have to move your hands from the wheel. Your hands still need to cover the brakes so other than moving to a single lever with buttons I'm not sure we'll see much development beyond the sprint switches etc. that are already available.

Yeah I was thinking about that and wondering how hydraulic braking might change that too because you can add "interruptor" levers wherever you like with little penalty (except weight). Two key constraints caused by cables are gone. For instance, you could add aero bars with brakes and shifters in addition to others on more upright bars.

You could add your shifting buttons to your gloves.

I don't know if it will change things but it probably ought to as I've always thought the current brifter set-up to be something of a compromise.

dennisn

Stueys wrote:

but it does improve every part of the shifting experience.

To be honest, I can't even express how stupid that sounds to me. "...the shifting experience."? WTF is "...the shifting experience."?

gweeds

The experience of shifting. It's not hard to understand surely.

dennisn

Gweeds wrote:

The experience of shifting. It's not hard to understand surely.

Then explain it to me please. And don't call me Surely.

mamba80

dennisn wrote:

Stueys wrote:

but it does improve every part of the shifting experience.

To be honest, I can't even express how stupid that sounds to me. "...the shifting experience."? WTF is "...the shifting experience."?

you press a button, move a lever, click a paddle etc chain moves across to another chain ring or sprocket... i might do this 100s of times on a ride...... i dont think about it, there is no "experience" its not like having sex, abseiling or driving a rally car.

bernithebiker

dennisn wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

The experience of shifting. It's not hard to understand surely.

Then explain it to me please. And don't call me Surely.

LOL! Bear in mind that some here are too young to have ever seen Airplane!

Hinaultscrapcousin

meanredspider wrote:

Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:

Paddle shift is replacing gear sticks because it means you don't have to move your hands from the wheel. Your hands still need to cover the brakes so other than moving to a single lever with buttons I'm not sure we'll see much development beyond the sprint switches etc. that are already available.

Yeah I was thinking about that and wondering how hydraulic braking might change that too because you can add "interruptor" levers wherever you like with little penalty (except weight). Two key constraints caused by cables are gone. For instance, you could add aero bars with brakes and shifters in addition to others on more upright bars.

You could add your shifting buttons to your gloves.

I don't know if it will change things but it probably ought to as I've always thought the current brifter set-up to be something of a compromise.

Extra brake levers and shifting buttons are a good idea, especially for those who do silly things like TTing... Shifters in gloves etc. I can't really see working. People shift their hands all over the handlebars while riding, you'll end up shifting by accident while climbing etc.


Honestly though, the more I think about eTap the more I don't understand the single action levers. It seems like a massive flaw. One stops working and you're screwed. Want to shift up at the front and back? Nope, you have to do it sequentially (mainly for racers). forgot what ring you're on at the front and you could end up slamming it into a too small or too big gear. It seems designed for weekend riders to be honest.

ugo.santalucia

Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:

It seems designed for weekend riders to be honest.

That would be refreshing... considering it is the bulk of the market and often ignored when launching a new product

dennisn

bernithebiker wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

The experience of shifting. It's not hard to understand surely.

Then explain it to me please. And don't call me Surely.

LOL! Bear in mind that some here are too young to have ever seen Airplane!

Good point.

StillGoing

Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:

Honestly though, the more I think about eTap the more I don't understand the single action levers. It seems like a massive flaw. One stops working and you're screwed. Want to shift up at the front and back? Nope, you have to do it sequentially (mainly for racers). forgot what ring you're on at the front and you could end up slamming it into a too small or too big gear. It seems designed for weekend riders to be honest.

How is a single action lever any more of a hazard if broken than any other lever? You break a lever with Shimano or Campagnola its kaput. The way that SRAM operates is instinctive and eTap even more so; left to change down, right to change up and both to change the front. Stuck in the big ring when a lever breaks? use the set up process to change down to the inner ring. It's no more difficult than detaching the cable on a front derailleur in the event of a lever breaking.