eTap : worth it or it's just a poser thing ?

Devastazione2

Been to Dura Ace 9000,Ultegra 6700 ( horrible),tested extensively a Ui2 and I'm now perfectly happy with a 105 on my Diverge. My next bike purchase comes either with the next to retirement Ultegra or the mighty SRAM eTap. I don't race at all but my rides are short and punchy. Is the eTap really worth the money or the coolness factor ? I like the geeky idea but since I'm not a millennial I don't think I can stand another device to plug in..

smoggysteve

Says Ultegra 6700 is horrible but quite happy with 105 even though new 105 is pretty much old Ultegra with an extra click?!?!

Devastazione2

SmoggySteve wrote:

Says Ultegra 6700 is horrible but quite happy with 105 even though new 105 is pretty much old Ultegra with an extra click?!?!

Right,so the Ultegra 6800 everyone praise should be the horrible DA 7900....

Midlands Grimpeur

Just personal experience/opinion but in my view it is worth it. I switched to red mechanical 2 years ago and made the etap upgrade recently. I have used most gruppos from campag and shimano and SRAM red is my favourite and etap itself is another improvement.

As most reviews will tell you, setup is easy and the overall performance & functionality is excellent. What sets it apart from other electronic shifting is the wireless element, it just makes the installation a lot cleaner and you simply unclip the battery packs from the FD/RD and charge them in under an hour so basically as hassle free as you can get at present. I have had eps and di2 before and to be honest switched back to mechanical as wiring/charging was a PITA for me. I can't see myself switching back from etap to mechanical at any point.

meanredspider

Midlands Grimpeur wrote:

I have had eps and di2 before and to be honest switched back to mechanical as wiring/charging was a PITA for me.

What did the wiring do that meant that a couple of mechanical cables was better??

I mean I can understand the charging thing - I mean, plugging it in once every couple of months or so for 30 mins is a right PITA....

smoggysteve

Devastazione2 wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Says Ultegra 6700 is horrible but quite happy with 105 even though new 105 is pretty much old Ultegra with an extra click?!?!

Right,so the Ultegra 6800 everyone praise should be the horrible DA 7900....

Has nothing to do with how well DA7900 worked. 5800 105 is almost identical in its inner mechanism to 6700 Ultegra just with an extra gear. So you are saying the gears you say are fine are horrible in ultegra but ok with one more gear and a bit more weight. DA7900 has less in common with 6800 Ultegra than the 105 has

noodleman

Similar experience to midlands grimpeur. Had all the other groupsets and red was my favourite. I was never keen on the shimano shifting system. Setting up e-tap is simple although not the 5 minute job some people will have you believe and you do need to watch YouTube the first time you set it up.
The charging is quicker than di2 and slightly less fiddly than the tiny port you have to plug into. Also the batteries are much cheaper and being able to swap them over can be very handy. The way e-tap shifts is great. Left shifter up the block and right shifter down, with both together changing the front mech up or down. Lovely little click to the shifters which you don't get on di2. The only thing I prefer on di2 is the slightly quicker shifting on the rear. Other than that I think it e-tap beats di2 and other systems in every way.
Is it worth it? Depends on your viewpoint. If you find 105 better than di2, ultegra etc, then it could be an expensive mistake but the way etap shifts is great. It looks the best (personal opinion) is the lightest electronic groupset and is the easiest to install.

StillGoing

eTap is a brilliant concept, but for me, not worth the extra money over Di2 and personally wouldn't help me. I have a medical condition (subclavian occlusion) that means the left hand goes numb during long rides, making it nigh on impossible to shift the front ring with a mechanical groupset. Di2 and an electronic button would make it a whole lot easier.

meanredspider

noodleman wrote:

The charging is quicker than di2 and slightly less fiddly than the tiny port you have to plug into. Also the batteries are much cheaper and being able to swap them over can be very handy.

Just to be clear - Di2 can have an external battery giving the same benefits. I prefer the external Di2 battery. That said, as above, charging of Di2 batteries is both fast and incredibly infrequent.

I get the whole "no wires" thing. I think it's only a tiny benefit for all but those frames that can't route cables internally. That's where it begins and ends for me. Lots is made of the big paddles and the click on the shifters which I simply don't get. The L&R thing must be a positive downside unless you only ride eTap bikes for "relearning". Like most, I guess, I tend to shift subliminally.

noodleman

Well the 'no wires thing' isn't only intended to help people who can't wire internally. It's a step forward in terms of reliability and aesthetics. Also saves a lot of set up time. When you say "I simply don't get" the bigger paddles and the click, why not? No accidental wrong shifts and a lot nicer to use in thick gloves. I also don't agree that di2 external has the same benefits. You can't swap batteries over plus the battery is huge compared to etap and looks pretty bad.
You could also argue that campag has to be re-learned from shimano. Just because you only use shimano, doesn't mean it's the only way (correct) way of gear changes.

meanredspider

noodleman wrote:

Well the 'no wires thing' isn't only intended to help people who can't wire internally. It's a step forward in terms of reliability and aesthetics. Also saves a lot of set up time. When you say "I simply don't get" the bigger paddles and the click, why not? No accidental wrong shifts and a lot nicer to use in thick gloves. I also don't agree that di2 external has the same benefits. You can't swap batteries over plus the battery is huge compared to etap and looks pretty bad.
You could also argue that campag has to be re-learned from shimano. Just because you only use shimano, doesn't mean it's the only way (correct) way of gear changes.

How is "no wires" a benefit from a reliability point of view? Part of what I'm responsible for at a large consumer electronics company is compliance testing - including radio and EMC. There's no way anybody would describe "radio" as a step forward in reliability. Aesthetics is obviously totally subjective. Personally, a tiny loop of wire is never going to bother me.

As for not getting the big paddles, I've been using Di2 for over 5 years in all possible conditions and pretty much all usual glove configurations (including lobsters). I've never once thought "I wish I had big paddles" - I do feel sorry for the female partners of the guys that need big paddles to shift. As for the "click" - isn't the clue that you've pressed the lever the fact that something has happened? Do you need a "click" on your brake levers too?

Of course you can change the external battery on Di2. My oldest battery is now over 5 years old - it's just beginning to show signs of getting tired. On its charging dock they take about 30 mins to fully charge. As for not looking great, most people don't even notice it's there as it sits under the water bottle of both "external" bikes.

Yup - of course you have to adapt between systems. I prefer to stick to one shifting system though (that's been Shimano except when I tried Apex which I hated as it felt so agricultural) because I want to enjoy cycling and want shifting to be subliminal.

FatTed

I moved from Campag Chorus to SRAM eTap, I already had a Quarq SRAM RED 22 powermeter. I have a steel framed bike, so internal wiring was not going to happen. I think it is the most worthwhile money I have spent on something completely unnecessary. It is really great. a lot better than Chorus, changing gear is easy straight forward and effortless. Not sure I am going to remember to change the batteries in the shifters before they run out.

meanredspider

There's no doubt that eTap has its place and there will be people that prefer or need no wires. That seems to be pretty much the only significant benefit with the price being slower RD shifts and shorter battery life. Where Di2 seems to have the edge is in the ability to customise function (again, if you need it). You pays your money...

I don't have the data but I sense that Shimano currently have the edge in disc braking - if that's even on your list of considerations.

sloppyschleckonds

meanredspider wrote:

Part of what I'm responsible for at a large consumer electronics company is compliance testing - including radio and EMC.

Zzzzzzzz

meanredspider

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Zzzzzzzz

Is that what you're qualified to do? I guess your limited writing and spelling skills constrain you somewhat Next term you're going to need to practice that second sentence again in Special Needs class...

Devastazione2

Forgot to say I don't like the button feel of di2 levers. Took me a while to get used to it but never really bonded in the end. I've heard eTap levers do swing,can somebody confirm ?

noodleman

meanredspider, the point I'm getting at is that you can swap the front and rear mech batteries over. Something you definitely can't do on di2. Also I think sram have probably tested the system under every circumstance and I know they employed hackers to try and break the system. Sure, some radio signals may not be reliable but srams system is and I'm not sure how a wired system is more reliable considering loose connections, corrosion, kinked wires or breaks in the wiring, all possibilities. It also sounds like you've not ever tried e-tap so possibly not the best person to give judgment on its worth. Also, sram doesn't have "big paddles" it has a lever that look very similar to shimano and campag levers but you just have one function per lever rather than two. The 'click' is another personal preference but it's nice to have some tactile feedback rather than the zero feedback you get with di2.

meanredspider

Radio signals are radio signals. If they were better then you can bet car manufacturers would be using them rather than profibus. And they wouldn't be susceptible to interference which clearly they are. I'm going to wind SS up again (I love doing that - I was worried he'd gone MIA) and say I have one of the foremost experts experts in EMC in my team and he said radio has a long way to go before it meets the standards of wiring (especially a profibus style system). I also worked on wireless for medical devices (c'mon Floppy, you know you want to...) and know that even that can be hacked if you want to - though that's not my concern. When radio doesn't work, it's very very difficult to fault-find without some properly expensive equipment.
As for levers, I'd describe them as offset switches on Shimano. I've not tried eTap but the many years of Di2 make me think that it's a problem I don't need solving. As I said above, I'm sure it suits some. The fact that Di2 is so customisable means I'm sure you can achieve something very similar if needed. Without the slower shifts.
As for batteries, the Di2 battery lasts twice as long and, short of a total battery failure (very very unusual mid-use - again, batteries we do too (3rd time lucky)), Di2 gives you plenty of warning through the get-you-home setting. If you're really that worried, blow £45 on a spare - though I don't so much as carry the one off my other bike. Every Shimano dealer carries a charger anyway. Non-issue.
As I've said above, it's just a matter of choice. I won't be swapping.

noodleman

Devastazione2 wrote:

Forgot to say I don't like the button feel of di2 levers. Took me a while to get used to it but never really bonded in the end. I've heard eTap levers do swing,can somebody confirm ?

The levers don't swing. They have a small amount of movement but very minimal.

imposter2.0

meanredspider wrote:

Radio signals are radio signals. If they were better then you can bet car manufacturers would be using them rather than profibus.

Not really directly comparable though, is it? E-tap is transmitting a basic, 'binary style' one-way signal to a receiver and the mech either moves one way or the other as a result. There is obviously no complex or multiplex information to process/relay, such as there would be for a vehicle's engine management or driver info system.

noodleman

Also di2 internal batteries are £130! Just had to replace mine as it never held a charge and went from full power to dead on three rides leaving me stuck in the granny ring on two of those occasions. Most embarrassing! :shock:

sungod

i fitted etap back in march replacing the existing red 10-speed mechs/shifters (plus cassette and chain)

tbh the main motivation was going 10-speed to 11-speed, fills in the 15-17 'gap' on the sram 10-speed cassette, 11-speed mechanical wasn't attractive with etap on the way

it was also good to lose the shift cabling, aside from aesthetics, when riding abroad it always takes a couple of rides for cables to re-seat after assembling, and as i ride all weathers cables tend to get contaminated

rf interference is a red herring, and of course wired electronic systems are also susceptible to disruption in strong rf fields, with etap i've had no problem with shift reliability even in areas with radar that blanks out srm and garmin head units, but even if there were, i'd simply miss a shift until out of range of whatever interference source, in practical terms it simply isn't a problem

battery life is fine, if the led goes red you can still do a full day, i keep a spare and just check the led every so often to see if it's time to swap over

shifts are not slow, i've not seen any objective measurement of shift speed compared to other systems, without that it's simply opinion, in the words of dcrainmaker...

Shifting performance: As one who’s spent a fair bit of time now on both (2 years on Di2, 2 months on eTAP), I just don’t see any real-world difference between shifting performance. If you read all sorts of reviews, everyone gives different opinions. Some say Di2 is faster, no wait, eTAP is faster. No wait, eTAP is faster in the front but not the back. Correction – eTAP is faster on both between 9AM and 11AM, but Di2 is faster on a Sunday at exactly 10:30AM. For four minutes only. Seriously folks. These shifts happen at millisecond speeds on both systems – and they’re just as fast as each other from a practical standpoint. Perhaps someday I’ll rent a crazy high-speed camera and try and figure out which one is truly faster. But realistically, it doesn’t matter, they both respond instantly.

...full review here: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/04/sra ... eview.html

mine has had umpteen soaking rides, 40+ celsius heat, ice cold, dust, sludge, no problems, shifting is better than mechanical and doesn't need adjustment

etap and shimano/campag equivalents, are only shifting systems, they all work fine, they all have their own pros and cons, if you've got the money and want one, get it

edit: there's also the bling factor

meanredspider

Imposter wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Radio signals are radio signals. If they were better then you can bet car manufacturers would be using them rather than profibus.

Not really directly comparable though, is it? E-tap is transmitting a basic, 'binary style' one-way signal to a receiver and the mech either moves one way or the other as a result. There is obviously no complex or multiplex information to process/relay, such as there would be for a vehicle's engine management or driver info system.

Most distributed control is just switching with digital (binary) signals. The point is that profibus is incredibly reliable.

I absolutely get the appeal of eTap but to try to argue it's more reliable is nonsense.

meanredspider

noodleman wrote:

Also di2 internal batteries are £130! Just had to replace mine as it never held a charge and went from full power to dead on three rides leaving me stuck in the granny ring on two of those occasions. Most embarrassing! :shock:

External ones are £45 (I've seen them for £35). I'd always choose to go external.

noodleman

meanredspider wrote:

Imposter wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Radio signals are radio signals. If they were better then you can bet car manufacturers would be using them rather than profibus.

Not really directly comparable though, is it? E-tap is transmitting a basic, 'binary style' one-way signal to a receiver and the mech either moves one way or the other as a result. There is obviously no complex or multiplex information to process/relay, such as there would be for a vehicle's engine management or driver info system.

Most distributed control is just switching with digital (binary) signals. The point is that profibus is incredibly reliable.

I absolutely get the appeal of eTap but to try to argue it's more reliable is nonsense.

So where are any reports of unreliable etap systems? You only need to Google 'faulty di2' and the Internet is littered with stories. If there was even one case of mobile phones, doorbells etc interfering with etap gear changes you'd have heard about it. There is simply more to go wrong with di2 because of the connections and wiring.

meanredspider

As for speed:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/pro ... ter-211408

even with a stated reason for the slower rear shifts.

But I'm not arguing Di2 is better. Or worse. It's different with pros and cons vs eTap.

meanredspider

noodleman wrote:

So where are any reports of unreliable etap systems? You only need to Google 'faulty di2' and the Internet is littered with stories. If there was even one case of mobile phones, doorbells etc interfering with etap gear changes you'd have heard about it. There is simply more to go wrong with di2 because of the connections and wiring.

Ha - come on - Di2 has been out for, what, 6 years? eTap for less than a year (lucky if many people have had it for 6 months) - that's before we consider the relative costs over that time. Let's wait and see where we are when we have apples to apples data.

The one thing people don't get on Di2 is the connection force for the plugs particularly on the shifters. That's just a competence thing. Once done, it's sorted.

In the meantime just try googling any other wireless bike connections - from Garmin speed sensors to power meters to HRMs and so on: products with real volume on the market. Or any wireless connection you like, really.

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

Imposter wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Radio signals are radio signals. If they were better then you can bet car manufacturers would be using them rather than profibus.

Not really directly comparable though, is it? E-tap is transmitting a basic, 'binary style' one-way signal to a receiver and the mech either moves one way or the other as a result. There is obviously no complex or multiplex information to process/relay, such as there would be for a vehicle's engine management or driver info system.

Most distributed control is just switching with digital (binary) signals. The point is that profibus is incredibly reliable.

I absolutely get the appeal of eTap but to try to argue it's more reliable is nonsense.

i didnt think di2 used Profibus but a generic shimano interface? just as sram uses its own standard and not 802.11n

Our ride yesterday am, was slightly messed up by 2 riders with di2 issues, we left them with their phones and ride partners, what could we do in any case?

i ve been on too many rides with people who ve had di2 problems to ever consider but e-tap, for some reason appeals, my thinking is wiring/bicycles and uk road/weather conditions are not ideal for this application.

Of course i total get that 1000s of riders have no issues also.

noodleman

meanredspider wrote:

noodleman wrote:

So where are any reports of unreliable etap systems? You only need to Google 'faulty di2' and the Internet is littered with stories. If there was even one case of mobile phones, doorbells etc interfering with etap gear changes you'd have heard about it. There is simply more to go wrong with di2 because of the connections and wiring.

Ha - come on - Di2 has been out for, what, 6 years? eTap for less than a year (lucky if many people have had it for 6 months) - that's before we consider the relative costs over that time. Let's wait and see where we are when we have apples to apples data.

The one thing people don't get on Di2 is the connection force for the plugs particularly on the shifters. That's just a competence thing. Once done, it's sorted.

In the meantime just try googling any other wireless bike connections - from Garmin speed sensors to power meters to HRMs and so on: products with real volume on the market. Or any wireless connection you like, really.

Maybe so but the main thing that needs to happen on a groupset is for it to change gear when you press a button. You can bet sram wouldn't of released etap if there was any chance of this not working each and every time you press said button. Not really comparable to a garmin. If you occasionally lose ride Data or briefly lose mph readings it's not going to render the product useless, just a slight annoyance.
Then compare that to teams racing in pro tour events and see how that product would even get off the ground if it couldn't acheive it's main objective of changing gear on demand. There isn't really much more it's being asked to do so in that respect it's 100% reliable from what I can see.

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

i didnt think di2 used Profibus but a generic shimano interface? just as sram uses its own standard and not 802.11n

Our ride yesterday am, was slightly messed up by 2 riders with di2 issues, we left them with their phones and ride partners, what could we do in any case?

i ve been on too many rides with people who ve had di2 problems to ever consider but e-tap, for some reason appeals, my thinking is wiring/bicycles and uk road/weather conditions are not ideal for this application.

Of course i total get that 1000s of riders have no issues also.

Yup - it's their own system but works on identical principles.

I've got to say that I love the blind faith in wireless - despite everything we know. This WILL be different...

I've used (and mostly abused) Di2 from the beginning. My Volagi has a totally externally mounted Di2 system (the only person that's ever noticed was The Bike Whisperer). That bike has been on some adventures. The Foil is racking up the miles now too.

The latest versions of Di2 connect to a mobile phone app so you can customise (and maybe diagnose - I don't know the details) on the fly. Smash a shifter in an off? Customise the other to continue.

The funny thing is I'm pro electronic shifting. I'd much rather have eTap than mechanical

neil h

Going back to the OPs question, I can't help feel it's a little bit posey. The only advantage I can see to using electronic shifters is that it significantly reduces the time to replace a derailleur/shifter, if that times not an issue then you may as well save yourself a small fortune.