Are you a believer in god?
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Can you imagine the outcry if an American politician came out and said "sorry, no Sky Fairies for me!" They'd be burned on a cross quicker than you can imagine.Rick Chasey wrote:0 -
Sure, but his belief isn't cynical.
He references Jesus, Christ, and Prayers a lot more than other Presidents have.
He sang amazing grace (an hymn don't forget), and spoke of the killer who "didn't know he was being used by God".
he wrote a prayer on the Western Wall in Jerusaleum which he didn't expect to have published.Lord — Protect my family and me. Forgive me my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will."
Religion isn't all bad.
On a micro level it can be very enlightening, supportive and can lead people to live a happier, more socially valuable life.
It's easy to be snobby about religion and say it causes all sorts of grief (but what doesn't?) but it also gives a lot of support and happiness.0 -
your last point is very valid, the moral code that people are supposed to adhere within is great, just a shame so many don't. Personally it's the all seeing, all forgiving nature I find it hard to deal withRick Chasey wrote:Sure, but his belief isn't cynical.
He references Jesus, Christ, and Prayers a lot more than other Presidents have.
He sang amazing grace (an hymn don't forget), and spoke of the killer who "didn't know he was being used by God".
he wrote a prayer on the Western Wall in Jerusaleum which he didn't expect to have published.Lord — Protect my family and me. Forgive me my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will."
Religion isn't all bad.
On a micro level it can be very enlightening, supportive and can lead people to live a happier, more socially valuable life.
It's easy to be snobby about religion and say it causes all sorts of grief (but what doesn't?) but it also gives a lot of support and happiness.0 -
No. Hendrix is better than Clapton.0
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Ballysmate wrote:
Jeff or eponyomous..?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:...make me an instrument of your will."
Religion isn't all bad.
Yes it is. It's manipulative, exploitative and divisive. It panders to base fears and takes away personal responsibility for one's actions.
"Make me an instrument of your will" is an open invitation for all nutters to take this as support for doing whatever they think is God's will.
It's just a hill. Get over it.0 -
In Viz years ago, there was a letters page asking religious questions to a priest...
One letter asked something like "When we die can we take our own clothes to heaven?". The answer was no, because people have died across all ages and gone to heaven. You could arrive with a nice jacket with a zip and someone there who'd arrvied from medieval or prehistoric times might covet it, and with envy being a deadly sin, they'd be ejected to hell, which wouldn't really be fair. So, no, you can't take your own clothes.0 -
Logically, all religion is horsesh1t.
That said, if you want to believe in it and you don't harm others, you keep it to yourself and you don't expect others to convert then it does no harm.
Of course, a lot of terrible things are done some sort of "name of religion", so as a whole, we'd be better off without it, but millions of people believe in the religion they are exposed to regardless of common sense or logic.
Nothing will change at any speed, but religion will be less and less widespread in the next few hundred years.0 -
mfin wrote:Logically, all religion is horsesh1t.
That said, if you want to believe in it and you don't harm others, you keep it to yourself and you don't expect others to convert then it does no harm.
Of course, a lot of terrible things are done some sort of "name of religion", so as a whole, we'd be better off without it, but millions of people believe in the religion they are exposed to regardless of common sense or logic.
I don't think that follows. I'm pretty sure lots of terrible things would have been done in something else's name if religion didn't exist.0 -
Religion on here is getting blamed for a lot of things that isn't remotely exclusive to religion.0
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Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:I don't think that follows. I'm pretty sure lots of terrible things would have been done in something else's name if religion didn't exist.
true .. but if we got rid of religion and taught people free thought instead of indoctrination through religion ... then there would probably be a lot less people following the nut cases
in the same way if you got rid of the Velonamati there would be a lot less pompous knbbers telling you your socks were the wrong height0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Religion on here is getting blamed for a lot of things that isn't remotely exclusive to religion.
Religion is a very easy thing to blame. Just say you're doing something bad because of religion and people will believe you.
It might be true, as it depends how you define religion and people's actions, but if religion didn't exist it would be something else.0 -
fat daddy wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:I don't think that follows. I'm pretty sure lots of terrible things would have been done in something else's name if religion didn't exist.
true .. but if we got rid of religion and taught people free thought instead of indoctrination through religion ... then there would probably be a lot less people following the nut cases
I don't know, people believe crazy stuff all the time. It's an academic discussion really because it's impossible to do now but I do think if it weren't religion it would be something else.0 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:I don't know, people believe crazy stuff all the time. It's an academic discussion really because it's impossible to do now but I do think if it weren't religion it would be something else.
its a medium - a façade that enables nutcases to easily preach their hate and groom the vulnerable in to doing their bad deeds.
if you remove the medium, it makes it harder to convert people ... not impossible, I suppose some nutcuse might buy a crisp factory and start posting hatred sermons on the backs of cheese and onion.
but yes, get rid of religion and they will find another way ... its just religion makes it a lot easier to do than say trying to convert people at a single mothers meeting0 -
fat daddy wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:I don't know, people believe crazy stuff all the time. It's an academic discussion really because it's impossible to do now but I do think if it weren't religion it would be something else.
its a medium - a façade that enables nutcases to easily preach their hate and groom the vulnerable in to doing their bad deeds.
if you remove the medium, it makes it harder to convert people ... not impossible, I suppose some nutcuse might buy a crisp factory and start posting hatred sermons on the backs of cheese and onion.
but yes, get rid of religion and they will find another way ... its just religion makes it a lot easier to do than say trying to convert people at a single mothers meeting
Fair points. I would suggest that fad diets could replace religion but I'm unsure what chaos that might unleash on the world.
I think my main issue is that religion is a get out clause for any nutter when really what they have done has nothing to do with it. Racism, sexism, bigotry, xenophobia etc. are the real reasons, it's just easier to hide behind religion.0 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Fair points. I would suggest that fad diets could replace religion but I'm unsure what chaos that might unleash on the world.
I was catching up on fad diets last night with Dr. van Tulleken. There's some crackers. I suspect they all work if you stick to them because they make it so hard to overeat you'll invariably run a calorie deficit. Most of them don't sound remotely sustainable though, although the Asian food one sounded tasty.
I still think there's not much difference between a cult and a religion0 -
Even as you typed that you knew it wasn't true. Pompous knbbers are endemic and readily associate into groups of like-minded souls. It's then just a case of thinking up a catchy alliterative name.fat daddy wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:I don't think that follows. I'm pretty sure lots of terrible things would have been done in something else's name if religion didn't exist.
true .. but if we got rid of religion and taught people free thought instead of indoctrination through religion ... then there would probably be a lot less people following the nut cases
in the same way if you got rid of the Velonamati there would be a lot less pompous knbbers telling you your socks were the wrong height1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
But the difference with religion is that these pompous knobbers claim to know the will of God, and have their dark age mythology enshrined in the legislation.rjsterry wrote:
Even as you typed that you knew it wasn't true. Pompous knbbers are endemic and readily associate into groups of like-minded souls. It's then just a case of thinking up a catchy alliterative name.fat daddy wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:I don't think that follows. I'm pretty sure lots of terrible things would have been done in something else's name if religion didn't exist.
true .. but if we got rid of religion and taught people free thought instead of indoctrination through religion ... then there would probably be a lot less people following the nut cases
in the same way if you got rid of the Velonamati there would be a lot less pompous knbbers telling you your socks were the wrong height
Would you like to work on a Sunday? God wouldn't like it so we'll legislate to stop shops opening.0 -
Pfft. Restrictions on Sunday trading are pretty modest thesr days, and mostly motivated by the idea that people should have at least one day off a week.Finesilver24 wrote:
But the difference with religion is that these pompous knobbers claim to know the will of God, and have their dark age mythology enshrined in the legislation.rjsterry wrote:
Even as you typed that you knew it wasn't true. Pompous knbbers are endemic and readily associate into groups of like-minded souls. It's then just a case of thinking up a catchy alliterative name.fat daddy wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:I don't think that follows. I'm pretty sure lots of terrible things would have been done in something else's name if religion didn't exist.
true .. but if we got rid of religion and taught people free thought instead of indoctrination through religion ... then there would probably be a lot less people following the nut cases
in the same way if you got rid of the Velonamati there would be a lot less pompous knbbers telling you your socks were the wrong height
Would you like to work on a Sunday? God wouldn't like it so we'll legislate to stop shops opening.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yes, they are now. But they weren't 100 tears ago when rampant religious do-gooders had serious influence over the legislation. 1 day off in 7 comes directly from the Bible's Ten Commandments, because God said we should because, even He had a day off after creating the universe and everything in it in only 6 days. Shame he took so long, had he done it all on 4 and had a day off we'd all be working a lot less often today.rjsterry wrote:Pfft. Restrictions on Sunday trading are pretty modest thesr days, and mostly motivated by the idea that people should have at least one day off a week.
And for years the offence to blasphemy was enforced. It was actually a crime to insult a figment of imagination.
And even today, young children are allowed to be genitally mutilated with their parent's consent to honour God's covenant with the chosen people of Israel. Imagine that, legally acceptable to have your children sliced up in deference to a made-up event recounted by a semi-literate individual in an ancient text. Physical harm as a result of religious belief based on a 'knowledge' that a religion knows the mind of God. It's as arrogant as it is barbaric as it is ridiculous. And it's actually legal.
Oh, and God's white and a man. Like the white men that ran the church, keeping women out of the pulpit because it was God's will according to a sacred text written by men, for men.
I'll stop now, because criticising religion and it's pointless beliefs is like clubbing a baby seal.0 -
This is all starting to sound a little hysterical. Not sure where you got the 'god is white and a man' thing from. Can you pick out a passage in the Bible, or the Koran, or perhaps the Torah that supports that statement?Finesilver24 wrote:
Yes, they are now. But they weren't 100 tears ago when rampant religious do-gooders had serious influence over the legislation. 1 day off in 7 comes directly from the Bible's Ten Commandments, because God said we should because, even He had a day off after creating the universe and everything in it in only 6 days. Shame he took so long, had he done it all on 4 and had a day off we'd all be working a lot less often today.rjsterry wrote:Pfft. Restrictions on Sunday trading are pretty modest thesr days, and mostly motivated by the idea that people should have at least one day off a week.
And for years the offence to blasphemy was enforced. It was actually a crime to insult a figment of imagination.
And even today, young children are allowed to be genitally mutilated with their parent's consent to honour God's covenant with the chosen people of Israel. Imagine that, legally acceptable to have your children sliced up in deference to a made-up event recounted by a semi-literate individual in an ancient text. Physical harm as a result of religious belief based on a 'knowledge' that a religion knows the mind of God. It's as arrogant as it is barbaric as it is ridiculous. And it's actually legal.
Oh, and God's white and a man. Like the white men that ran the church, keeping women out of the pulpit because it was God's will according to a sacred text written by men, for men.
I'll stop now, because criticising religion and it's pointless beliefs is like clubbing a baby seal.
Sure, people have done all manner of horrific things to one another, but none of it is exclusive to people who hold some sort of religious belief. People will warp any set of ideas to suit their purpose: religious, cultural, scientific, political, whatever.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It's odd.
More people in the last 2 centuries have been killed in the name of non-theistic religion, and we are so in thrall to it we have news reports all over the place reporting every move and faint that occurs in politics.
Arguably, religion is at its most disruptive is when it becomes political.0 -
@ballysmate... cheers bud. Nice to be appreciated... and remembered
No, i'm not going to engage further. Its either true or it isnt. Whoever is right or wrong we will all find out one day...0 -
Of course you're remembered Mikey, even missed on occasion. Just saw your name so had a quick look, hope you are well.Mikey23 wrote:@ballysmate... cheers bud. Nice to be appreciated... and remembered0 -
rjsterry wrote:
This is all starting to sound a little hysterical. Not sure where you got the 'god is white and a man' thing from. Can you pick out a passage in the Bible, or the Koran, or perhaps the Torah that supports that statement?Finesilver24 wrote:Oh, and God's white and a man. Like the white men that ran the church, keeping women out of the pulpit because it was God's will according to a sacred text written by men, for men....
As this painting of GOD in the Sistine Chapel (Vatican, home of God's representative on Earth and leader of the Christian Faith), I think it's fairly evident that Christianity thinks God is a man. Otherwise the Pope would have probably got Michelangelo to change it. But as the Pope also knew that the concept of a God is a fallacy, maybe he didn't really care as long as the Vatican made vast fortunes (which it still does, by the way).
Correct, but anything perpetrated with the justification that it's what God wants them to do is a whole new level of wrong. Lopping a child's foreskin off should be illegal like other forms of child abuse. It's a religious practice based on the Abrahamic covenant in which "Circumcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants and is known as the brit milah."rjsterry wrote:Sure, people have done all manner of horrific things to one another, but none of it is exclusive to people who hold some sort of religious belief. People will warp any set of ideas to suit their purpose: religious, cultural, scientific, political, whatever.
If I had a legal right to blind all my children with barbeque skewers because a semi-literate dark-age author made up a story about it being God's will, people would be disgusted. There are many such legal acts of physical or mental abuse perpetuated in the name of God.0 -
So no reference in any of the sacred texts then, or could you not be bothered to look? It's not really surprising that a 16th century painting Renaissance painting depicts its subjects as European, is it?Finesilver24 wrote:rjsterry wrote:
This is all starting to sound a little hysterical. Not sure where you got the 'god is white and a man' thing from. Can you pick out a passage in the Bible, or the Koran, or perhaps the Torah that supports that statement?Finesilver24 wrote:Oh, and God's white and a man. Like the white men that ran the church, keeping women out of the pulpit because it was God's will according to a sacred text written by men, for men....
As this painting of GOD in the Sistine Chapel (Vatican, home of God's representative on Earth and leader of the Christian Faith), I think it's fairly evident that Christianity thinks God is a man. Otherwise the Pope would have probably got Michelangelo to change it. But as the Pope also knew that the concept of a God is a fallacy, maybe he didn't really care as long as the Vatican made vast fortunes (which it still does, by the way).
Correct, but anything perpetrated with the justification that it's what God wants them to do is a whole new level of wrong. Lopping a child's foreskin off should be illegal like other forms of child abuse. It's a religious practice based on the Abrahamic covenant in which "Circumcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants and is known as the brit milah."rjsterry wrote:Sure, people have done all manner of horrific things to one another, but none of it is exclusive to people who hold some sort of religious belief. People will warp any set of ideas to suit their purpose: religious, cultural, scientific, political, whatever.
If I had a legal right to blind all my children with barbeque skewers because a semi-literate dark-age author made up a story about it being God's will, people would be disgusted. There are many such legal acts of physical or mental abuse perpetuated in the name of God.
Why is using a religious belief to justify some act any different from using a political or cultural or scientific justification? Slavery was justified on the basis of supposed racial superiority and economics; forced sterilisation of women was carried out in the belief that the poor shouldn't breed, to give just two examples. What's the real difference?
Equating male circumcision with blinding children is just silly.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I think a case could be made for equating female circumcision with blinding children though0
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Maybe not equating, but certainly abhorrent. However that's not directly related to religious beliefs. It's more to do with control of female sexuality.diplodicus wrote:I think a case could be made for equating female circumcision with blinding children though
Rightly, there are various major international campaigns against FGM.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0
