Are you a believer in god?

Lookyhere

City Boy wrote:

Pross wrote:

I consider evolution a proven fact. However, I still cannot understand why the evolutionary process would result in humans developing notions such as right and wrong, building legal structures or spending time inventing things purely for enjoyment. Surely the purpose of evolution is to ensure you survive individually and as a species. So can one of the enlightened ones explain this to me please? I'm happy to admit the existence of everything makes no sense to me whether there is or isn't a god, I'm certainly not going to try to claim I know better than others no matter what their belief.

I think there is some reasonably sound explanations as to why developing morality (sense of right and wrong), compassion and altruistic behaviour would be good from an evolutionary perspective and we can see examples of these things within other animal species.

I mentioned it earlier but I would highly recommend 'Sapiens' by Yuval Noah Harari which will give you answers to many of the questions posed.

would it? sort of goes against the "only the strong/fittest survive" theory.

someone mentioned it seems to be only mankind that has invented and some would advocate, being prepared to use, weapons to destroy not only them selves but of the very planet itself.

city_boy

Lookyhere wrote:

would it? sort of goes against the "only the strong/fittest survive" theory.

I guess that depends on whether you look at it from an 'individual' or a 'species' point of view.

Human social evolution has allowed us, at an individual level within our species to overcome the principle of survival of the fittest by allowing 'weaker' individuals to not only survive but to procreate and pass on their 'weak' genes and so on and so on.

From a species point of view, we have evolved to be by far the fittest and strongest. Our sheer number and mastery over our world attests to that. This has come about predominantly by the evolutionary development of our brains (and opposable thumbs ) and our resultant congnitive abilities allowing us to adapt to ever changing surroundings and environments and our ability to work together in ever-increasing larger groups. This ability to work with other individuals and groups outside of our immediate tribe has only come about since we developed the ability to imagine and communicate fictions such as laws, morals, religions etc.

Lookyhere wrote:

someone mentioned it seems to be only mankind that has invented and some would advocate, being prepared to use, weapons to destroy not only them selves but of the very planet itself.

To the best of my knowledge mankind is the only species that has evolved an ability to invent, design and create anything from a material (unnatural) PoV, although there are many species that have developed some very effective and (some may argue) cruel and barbaric means of survival that are to the detriment of other species.

There is an argument that 'globally' the world is a safer place as a result of nuclear weapons and that their existence has been a major factor in preventing a 3rd world war on the scale (or larger) than the previous two. Whether I fully subscribe to that argument I'm not sure.

finchy

Lookyhere wrote:

would it? sort of goes against the "only the strong/fittest survive" theory.

Survival of the fittest means survival of the best adapted to a particular given environment. It does NOT mean some hypercompetitive free-for-all bloodfest, despite what social Darwinists would have you believe.

Humans are not particularly strong, or fast (over short distances) animals. We would not have survived for a long time if it weren't for our ability to work together in groups. Altruism/selflessness and a sense of justice are a major advantage for any animal wishing to live in a group, and I think that researchers have found evidence for such behaviour in other primates and dogs.

cycleclinic

Difficult to destroy the planet. Wiping ourselves out and causing a mass extinctik is within our capabiities but wiping life out in the planet is not. The bloody stuff exist deep in oil resoviours in the antartic ice sheet. Some life does not even need life and can survive ridiculous temperature so i would not worry about destroying the planet we can't do that, we can't even get close.

We are a sucessful species because we work together. Because we are inventive with tools we think we are special in the world and came up with the idea of god to try and explain why we appear to be different. It turns we are not that different or social. Chimps can sign, crows use tools and caladonion crows are more clever than some people at solving problems.

Finesilver24

God does exist, and he answers my prayers. Last week I prayed that I would get a job, and then I got a job against stiff competition. I guess I must have prayed harder than the other candidates. Tonight I'm praying that Strictly Come dancing is taken off the BBC (it worked recently for Bake Off, BTW).

cycleclinic

I have been praying for a big cheque from the big cheque company or a lottery win without buying a ticket. It has not happened so god must not exist.

PoorInRichfield

> How many of us on here believe there is a god, heaven and hell?

I do believe in God, heaven, and hell. Explaining my entire path to this decision would bore the entire Internet, but here is a "Cliff Notes" version of some of the reasoning that got me to where I am today...

Clearly, I nor anyone else can prove the existence of "god", so the notion of a "god" seems like a fairy tale. I personally have never seen "god", nor have I had any supernatural life experiences (although I know others that have). However, until the Law of Biogenesis is disproven, I cannot accept Neo Darwinism as a viable option either. The more I study evolutionary theory, the more holes I find and I'm at the point where I know the "theory of evolution" is scientifically impossible... but there are no other viable theories that don't involve some mysterious "creator" to have kicked-off the entire process.

This puts me in a bind... believing in the existence of "god" or not seems to be a choice between two highly unlikely options. My mind refuses to participate in "wishful thinking" in that a sincerely held belief, like a religious belief, doesn't make something true. If "god" doesn't exist, it doesn't matter how much I practice a particular religion or believe it's "true"; that doesn't make it true. The same goes for the belief that there is no god. Filling-in gaps in a problematic origin-of-life theory with explanations that violate known scientific laws doesn't work either. Not only that, life screams of design, which requires a designer. The notion that all life was created by nothing for no reason is illogical.

I find Pascal's Wager (as in Blaise Pascal, the French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer) to be a solid argument that helped sway me towards my current faith in God. His argument doesn't prove anything, but we'll never be able to prove or disapprove the existence of God, which means we're all really hedging our bets anyway.

My current belief in God isn't based on flipping a coin, but I think it's something everyone should really think deeply about because eternity is a really long time. I know many will disagree with much of what I just typed, and that's fine... I absolutely understand and respect views that differ from mine. However, I'm secure in the knowledge that my faith in Jesus Christ is the Truth... and I'm willing to bet my eternity on it. Are you willing to be your eternity on your belief?

briantrumpet

PoorInRichfield wrote:

Are you willing to be your eternity on your belief?

I had no consciousness before I was born , and I'll have none after I've died. Most people don't seem to have any problem with not having had any pre-life consciousness; I'll just be returning to that state, when the time comes. I'll have no interest in eternity.

meanredspider

I'd love to know some examples of the holes in evolution theory - if only so I can ask my son who is studying it at college.

I'd also like to know why life screams of design? Dawkins made a really interesting point about design in the programme where they dissected a dead giraffe. There's a nerve (vocal cord?) that travels down the entire length of a giraffe's neck from the brain, around an artery (IIRC) and back up to the vocal chord (or whatever). Now, evolution would predict this and no "designer" would do something so daft. Just one example of a very specific in-design point. The rest I'd leave to the fossil record...

meanredspider

briantrumpet wrote:

PoorInRichfield wrote:

Are you willing to be your eternity on your belief?

I had no consciousness before I was born , and I'll have none after I've died. Most people don't seem to have any problem with not having had any pre-life consciousness; I'll just be returning to that state, when the time comes. I'll have no interest in eternity.

+1

ballysmate

My current belief in God isn't based on flipping a coin, but I think it's something everyone should really think deeply about because eternity is a really long time. I know many will disagree with much of what I just typed, and that's fine... I absolutely understand and respect views that differ from mine. However, I'm secure in the knowledge that my faith in Jesus Christ is the Truth... and I'm willing to bet my eternity on it. Are you willing to be your eternity on your belief?

Are you basing your faith on fear of being wrong? If so, that is no faith at all.

Besides, out of all the choices, why do you think a Christian God is the way to go?

pblakeney

meanredspider wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

PoorInRichfield wrote:

Are you willing to be your eternity on your belief?

I had no consciousness before I was born , and I'll have none after I've died. Most people don't seem to have any problem with not having had any pre-life consciousness; I'll just be returning to that state, when the time comes. I'll have no interest in eternity.

+1

+2
As an aside for those who believe in the ever after, what do think you'll be doing for eternity?

city_boy

PoorInRichfield wrote:

However, until the Law of Biogenesis is disproven, I cannot accept Neo Darwinism as a viable option either. The more I study evolutionary theory, the more holes I find and I'm at the point where I know the "theory of evolution" is scientifically impossible... but there are no other viable theories that don't involve some mysterious "creator" to have kicked-off the entire process.

This puts me in a bind... believing in the existence of "god" or not seems to be a choice between two highly unlikely options.

How life began in the first instance is very different to the Theory of Evolution which 'only' explains how simple (comparatively) organisms evolved into the complex and bio diverse life forms we see today. I would be interested to know what 'holes' you have found and how you conclude that evolution is scientifically impossible?

And the truth of evolution in itself does not disprove a god (it only disproves the literal translation of Genesis). There are a number of respected evolutionary biologists that hold positions of faith and I believe the Catholic Church is very receptive to evolution and the Big Bang theory.

meanredspider

I had a look at Pascal's Wager and it's just an example of game theory where some specific rules are set. The trouble is it isn't a heads-or-tales bet. So, if this is what you consider a "solid argument", I'm not surprised you believe what you do.

rjsterry

City Boy wrote:

Hitchens...

His view was that the likes of genital mutiliation and suicide bombing was almost exclusively devinely warranted.

Which rather shows the limits of his argument. Suicide attacks featured in Tsarist Russia, the Kamikaze pilots of WW2, and the Sri Lankan civil war. I don't know enough about genital mutiliation to comment.

bianchimoon

PoorInRichfield wrote:

The more I study evolutionary theory, the more holes I find and I'm at the point where I know the "theory of evolution" is scientifically impossible... but there are no other viable theories that don't involve some mysterious "creator" to have kicked-off the entire process.

You disagree with the vast majority of scientists/knowledgeable people in the educated world, because you've found 'holes' in the theory of evolution?, do you know how great you must be? You need to get this info out to save the rest of the world from heinous advances in science/knowledge and critical thinking.... and then drift back to your 18th century world happy knowing that your knowledge firewall is intact and in place

Finesilver24

- Why do religious people generally believe in the same religion their parents do?
- Why are there so many religions? And so many ex-religions? God's message must be very confusing, so what makes people sure that theirs is the correct one now?
- How many religious people have studied other religions before deciding that their religion is the correct one?
- Why do religious people believe their 'Holy Books' when they are invariably written by semi-literate men long after the events they are reporting?
- Do religious people believe that their 'Holy Books' are the word of their God, or later interpretations by mortal men? If they are the actual word of God, they are inconsistent, self-conflicting and narrow-minded ramblings. If they are the interpretations from mortal men, why should they have any credence? Noah was more that 300 years old, for example.
- When was the last time God actually did something tangible? He used to appear in apparitions, smite people, cause great floods, make every living creature, speak to Adam, proclaim commandments etc. Now he seems to be on a bit of a break.
-Why do churches (I'm thinking Catholic here) change their interpretations of the Bible to adapt to world events? Scientists used to be burned for heresy if they contradicted the Bible's ramblings.
- Why would God want people to mutilate their children? And command it?
- Why does God let his appointed representatives sexually abuse children, and allow his church to cover it up (again, I'm thinking Catholic here)? Surely this is worthy of a damn good smiting, or a localised flood.

orraloon

Q: What's the connection between Jesus and a donkey?

A: They both took people for a ride.

Consider your reaction to that old chestnut then ask yourself why.

evil_breakfast

meanredspider wrote:

Yup - reading Dawkins will help too. Evolution tends to favour behaviours that ensure the passing on of genes for that behaviour. Dawkins explains (often using game theory) how and why altruistic behaviour (for example) could benefit the passing on of genes.

Started The Selfish Gene at the start of December, lasted about 6 chapters before giving up. But what I did read corresponds with my own 'world view'.
That, and multiple playthroughs of Metal Gear Solid.

surrey_commuter

evil_breakfast wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yup - reading Dawkins will help too. Evolution tends to favour behaviours that ensure the passing on of genes for that behaviour. Dawkins explains (often using game theory) how and why altruistic behaviour (for example) could benefit the passing on of genes.

Started The Selfish Gene at the start of December, lasted about 6 chapters before giving up. But what I did read corresponds with my own 'world view'.
That, and multiple playthroughs of Metal Gear Solid.

I lasted about 6 pages into the God Delusion - the bloke is very good at sound bites but unreadable.

surrey_commuter

PoorInRichfield wrote:

> How many of us on here believe there is a god, heaven and hell?

I do believe in God, heaven, and hell. Explaining my entire path to this decision would bore the entire Internet, but here is a "Cliff Notes" version of some of the reasoning that got me to where I am today...

Clearly, I nor anyone else can prove the existence of "god", so the notion of a "god" seems like a fairy tale. I personally have never seen "god", nor have I had any supernatural life experiences (although I know others that have). However, until the Law of Biogenesis is disproven, I cannot accept Neo Darwinism as a viable option either. The more I study evolutionary theory, the more holes I find and I'm at the point where I know the "theory of evolution" is scientifically impossible... but there are no other viable theories that don't involve some mysterious "creator" to have kicked-off the entire process.

This puts me in a bind... believing in the existence of "god" or not seems to be a choice between two highly unlikely options. My mind refuses to participate in "wishful thinking" in that a sincerely held belief, like a religious belief, doesn't make something true. If "god" doesn't exist, it doesn't matter how much I practice a particular religion or believe it's "true"; that doesn't make it true. The same goes for the belief that there is no god. Filling-in gaps in a problematic origin-of-life theory with explanations that violate known scientific laws doesn't work either. Not only that, life screams of design, which requires a designer. The notion that all life was created by nothing for no reason is illogical.

I find Pascal's Wager (as in Blaise Pascal, the French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer) to be a solid argument that helped sway me towards my current faith in God. His argument doesn't prove anything, but we'll never be able to prove or disapprove the existence of God, which means we're all really hedging our bets anyway.

My current belief in God isn't based on flipping a coin, but I think it's something everyone should really think deeply about because eternity is a really long time. I know many will disagree with much of what I just typed, and that's fine... I absolutely understand and respect views that differ from mine. However, I'm secure in the knowledge that my faith in Jesus Christ is the Truth... and I'm willing to bet my eternity on it. Are you willing to be your eternity on your belief?

I feel you have misunderstood the point of the Pascal Wager but even so logically you should be a devout follower of all religions and Gods as you can not prove (until it is too late which is the true one)

meanredspider

Surrey Commuter wrote:

evil_breakfast wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yup - reading Dawkins will help too. Evolution tends to favour behaviours that ensure the passing on of genes for that behaviour. Dawkins explains (often using game theory) how and why altruistic behaviour (for example) could benefit the passing on of genes.

Started The Selfish Gene at the start of December, lasted about 6 chapters before giving up. But what I did read corresponds with my own 'world view'.
That, and multiple playthroughs of Metal Gear Solid.

I lasted about 6 pages into the God Delusion - the bloke is very good at sound bites but unreadable.

He was the Oxford Chair of Public Understanding (or something)

I actually like his stuff - though I do sometimes cheat and listen to the audiobook (in the car on very long journeys...)

rick_chasey

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I feel you have misunderstood the point of the Pascal Wager but even so logically you should be a devout follower of all religions and Gods as you can not prove (until it is too late which is the true one)

If you assume god is all knowing, he will also know your motives & understand it is not devout belief.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I feel you have misunderstood the point of the Pascal Wager but even so logically you should be a devout follower of all religions and Gods as you can not prove (until it is too late which is the true one)

If you assume god is all knowing, he will also know your motives & understand it is not devout belief.

Agreed and as he was writing in the 1600s there has to be a chance he was taking the p1ss.

Most would interpret it as not desecrating a church rather than committing to living their lives on their knees

rick_chasey

The average atheist I find disappoints me in their reluctance to admit or even examine the issue of regular existential crises.

It's one of the joys of being an atheist, and is much more intellectually productive than insulting believers.

mugensi

oxoman wrote:

Dear God no. Personal feeling is religion is the root of all evil. Yes I was christened against my free will at the age of 12 months, my kids are christened but only because I wanted to stay married. One was also confirmed his choice though not mine, youngest didn't want to be, his choice again.

You weren't christened against your free will, you were christened because of your parents will that it happen. You didn't care or even realise it was happening so it wasn't against your will.

I don't believe in the churches teachings and doctrines about God but I do believe there is a God and although I have questioned his existence on many occasions I still revert to my belief that God exists.

thegreatdivide

Why did God create dinosaurs? Was it a bit of practice for the main event?

chris_bass

if there is a god or gods what is it or what are they up to now?

seems to go something like:
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
create everything
interfere for a few thousand years
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing

pblakeney

PBlakeney wrote:

As an aside for those who believe in the ever after, what do think you'll be doing for eternity?

No response? I guess contemplating doing something for eternity is as scary as considering no afterlife.

Finesilver24

Belief is (or should be) based on evidence. Faith is what people 'believe' when they have no evidence.

There is not a single tiny fraction of the evidence of any God; religion is just dark-age mythology which required a 'God' to explain what was previously unexplainable, and people don't want to let go of the comfort blanket and (generally) have their minds altered at an early age so that the concept of a God becomes the norm. But it's all still just blind faith and there is NO PROOF.

I have no proof that Kylie Minogue is going to come to Lincolnshire in the future and marry me, so I can't believe it will happen. But in the absence of evidence, I have faith that she will turn up, and that ridiculous self-delusion keeps me happy and allows me to sleep at night. If you don't believe in my faith, that's your problem, not mine, but I would like some tax breaks and special privileges as a result of having a 'faith'.