Are you a believer in god?

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  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    A lot of people are quite easily led, gullible even. Look at all the incredible promises made by Trump and the Brexiteers. Not much difference between that and promising a suicide bomber he's off to heaven to be waited on by any number of virgins? Apart from the fact that Farage is unlikely to chop your head off if you don't believe him obvs...
  • Alex99
    Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    keef66 wrote:
    A lot of people are quite easily led, gullible even. Look at all the incredible promises made by Trump and the Brexiteers. Not much difference between that and promising a suicide bomber he's off to heaven to be waited on by any number of virgins? Apart from the fact that Farage is unlikely to chop your head off if you don't believe him obvs...

    The lure of religious promise is even more enticing than those of a political demagogue. Religious promises can't be disproved, so many give equal probability to god (and the doctrine) being the real deal vs atheism. This doesn't really hold up. At least there is data that can be brought to bear on political claims.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    No there isn't.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,702
    Alex99 wrote:
    keef66 wrote:
    A lot of people are quite easily led, gullible even. Look at all the incredible promises made by Trump and the Brexiteers. Not much difference between that and promising a suicide bomber he's off to heaven to be waited on by any number of virgins? Apart from the fact that Farage is unlikely to chop your head off if you don't believe him obvs...

    The lure of religious promise is even more enticing than those of a political demagogue. Religious promises can't be disproved, so many give equal probability to god (and the doctrine) being the real deal vs atheism. This doesn't really hold up. At least there is data that can be brought to bear on political claims.
    Do you honestly believe people choose their political allegiance based on statistics? Recent history would suggest that is far far from the case.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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  • Alex99
    Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    rjsterry wrote:
    Alex99 wrote:
    keef66 wrote:
    A lot of people are quite easily led, gullible even. Look at all the incredible promises made by Trump and the Brexiteers. Not much difference between that and promising a suicide bomber he's off to heaven to be waited on by any number of virgins? Apart from the fact that Farage is unlikely to chop your head off if you don't believe him obvs...

    The lure of religious promise is even more enticing than those of a political demagogue. Religious promises can't be disproved, so many give equal probability to god (and the doctrine) being the real deal vs atheism. This doesn't really hold up. At least there is data that can be brought to bear on political claims.
    Do you honestly believe people choose their political allegiance based on statistics? Recent history would suggest that is far far from the case.

    I see people trying to choose their political allegiance based on pre-election pledges, then how their elected officials behave and the impact of their policies. That feedback loop is absent with religion because no verifiable information is available to say praying to this god, or that god worked or not. For political 'beliefs', it may be difficult to get clear information, but the possibility is there.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Just me then...

    Yes, I do believe in God

    I didn't but I became sufficiently convinced after examining the available evidence that it is true and therefore i needed to do something about it. So I did. Completely life changing in ways I could never have imagined
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    What evidence is that then Mikey?
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    Welcome back Mikey, our resident Methodist God botherer and one time conscience of BB.
  • BelgianBeerGeek
    BelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,226
    You do not need evidence to believe in the existence of god.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • chris_bass
    chris_bass Posts: 4,913
    BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
    You do not need evidence to believe in the existence of god.

    I do
    www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes
  • BelgianBeerGeek
    BelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,226
    Chris Bass wrote:
    BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
    You do not need evidence to believe in the existence of god.

    I do
    Keep your eyes peeled. He/she might be around when you least expect it.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,647
    What really strikes me about this thread is the willingness to denigrate people who do believe in [a] god.

    I don't. Strongly. But while I can be very critical of people who do believe, and who either shove it down your throat or pity/look down on those who don't, surely there can't be any quarrel with people who just happen to believe in god?
  • bbrap
    bbrap Posts: 610
    Jehovas piss me off. Just been dragged from the garage by a ring on the doorbell only to find two of them wanting to talk about some magazine they were waving. I must get a no god botherers sticker for my front door.
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  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,647
    bbrap wrote:
    Jehovas wee-wee me off. Just been dragged from the garage by a ring on the doorbell only to find two of them wanting to talk about some magazine they were waving. I must get a no god botherers sticker for my front door.
    Well, yes, this is precisely the sort of thing that annoys me. When I was of studenting age I used to engage in a rational dialogue, but it turns out its pointless.

    If you are a JW you are, by definition, a moron.

    You think you are special and you don't understand anything about the natural and physical sciences. You also have no idea what other people think of you and you presume to both intrude and impose your simplistic child-like understanding of your miniscule universe on strangers.

    And you can't count. Your heaven is already full and you will be on the waiting list for eternity.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,808
    First Aspect wrote:
    And you can't count. Your heaven is already full and you will be on the waiting list for eternity.
    This is all that need be said.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    First Aspect wrote:
    If you are a JW you are, by definition, a moron.

    This is also quite pertinent
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    First Aspect wrote:
    bbrap wrote:
    Jehovas wee-wee me off. Just been dragged from the garage by a ring on the doorbell only to find two of them wanting to talk about some magazine they were waving. I must get a no god botherers sticker for my front door.
    Well, yes, this is precisely the sort of thing that annoys me. When I was of studenting age I used to engage in a rational dialogue, but it turns out its pointless.
    Not pointless, you just have to have the right arguments!

    Two JWs dropped by mine once a year or two after i moved into my first, own home. A rather attractive female with a young girl (assumed her daughter). I listened and debated and listened and debated. Then i noticed the young girl really listening to my arguments. The woman then also spotted that. She couldn't leave quick enough.

    For a couple of years after that i used to see JW working the street. They always stopped just before my house, held a quick discussion then walk straight past my front door. My neighbour benefited from this because our front doors are next to each other. Knock on his door and i hear it thinking it's mine sometimes. However 2 years after that they stopped coming round at all. I think our street must be marked down as being dammed!
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    First Aspect wrote:
    bbrap wrote:
    Jehovas wee-wee me off. Just been dragged from the garage by a ring on the doorbell only to find two of them wanting to talk about some magazine they were waving. I must get a no god botherers sticker for my front door.
    Well, yes, this is precisely the sort of thing that annoys me. When I was of studenting age I used to engage in a rational dialogue, but it turns out its pointless.
    Not pointless, you just have to have the right arguments!

    Two JWs dropped by mine once a year or two after i moved into my first, own home. A rather attractive female with a young girl (assumed her daughter). I listened and debated and listened and debated. Then i noticed the young girl really listening to my arguments. The woman then also spotted that. She couldn't leave quick enough.

    For a couple of years after that i used to see JW working the street. They always stopped just before my house, held a quick discussion then walk straight past my front door. My neighbour benefited from this because our front doors are next to each other. Knock on his door and i hear it thinking it's mine sometimes. However 2 years after that they stopped coming round at all. I think our street must be marked down as being dammed!

    havin read through your arguments on here, i'm not surprised lol!

    When i was a kid our neighbours were JW's (their youngest son got me into bicycles) and we all got on really well, they never tried to convert any of us and this only stopped when the oldest son attacked his dad with an axe...... he moved away, well, taken would be more accurate and they all became a bit insular.
  • Alex99
    Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    First Aspect wrote:
    What really strikes me about this thread is the willingness to denigrate people who do believe in [a] god.

    I don't. Strongly. But while I can be very critical of people who do believe, and who either shove it down your throat or pity/look down on those who don't, surely there can't be any quarrel with people who just happen to believe in god?

    Denigrate? Not sure I've seen it in this thread. It's all been pretty fair.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    bbrap wrote:
    Jehovas wee-wee me off. Just been dragged from the garage by a ring on the doorbell only to find two of them wanting to talk about some magazine they were waving. I must get a no god botherers sticker for my front door.

    People say the same about canvassers.


    Usually to my face.
    _
  • bbrap
    bbrap Posts: 610
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    bbrap wrote:
    Jehovas wee-wee me off. Just been dragged from the garage by a ring on the doorbell only to find two of them wanting to talk about some magazine they were waving. I must get a no god botherers sticker for my front door.

    People say the same about canvassers.


    Usually to my face.


    Anyone who comes to my front door and wants to talk about tents will get the same reaction :)
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    Van Raam 'O' Pair
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  • andcp
    andcp Posts: 644
    bbrap wrote:
    Anyone who comes to my front door and wants to talk about tents will get the same reaction :)
    Quality gag right there ;)
    "It must be true, it's on the internet" - Winston Churchill
  • Finesilver24
    Finesilver24 Posts: 140
    First Aspect wrote:
    What really strikes me about this thread is the willingness to denigrate people who do believe in [a] god.

    I don't. Strongly. But while I can be very critical of people who do believe, and who either shove it down your throat or pity/look down on those who don't, surely there can't be any quarrel with people who just happen to believe in god?
    For me, it's because so much of our society is based on the misguided belief that there is a God, and we don't want to upset him/her/it. Morality is a man-made set of principles, and if we all accept that we could move on and ditch the dark-age drivel. Instead, the concept of a divinely-decreed morality has stifled society for years and it's time it came to an end. Anybody holding on to dated notions is like a luddite holding up progress, but with the audacity to claim that they know there is a God and that they know what he wants.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Finesilver24 wrote:
    First Aspect wrote:
    What really strikes me about this thread is the willingness to denigrate people who do believe in [a] god.

    I don't. Strongly. But while I can be very critical of people who do believe, and who either shove it down your throat or pity/look down on those who don't, surely there can't be any quarrel with people who just happen to believe in god?
    For me, it's because so much of our society is based on the misguided belief that there is a God, and we don't want to upset him/her/it. Morality is a man-made set of principles, and if we all accept that we could move on and ditch the dark-age drivel. Instead, the concept of a divinely-decreed morality has stifled society for years and it's time it came to an end. Anybody holding on to dated notions is like a luddite holding up progress, but with the audacity to claim that they know there is a God and that they know what he wants.

    But that's an objection to religion - not god. How do we know (and this is ultimately what sinks all religions) that there is a god but he doesn't give a shit what we get up to? He's just happy to watch us live our lives and only interferes occasionally by giving us a prod with things like industrial revolutions and science to help us along so we don't waste time killing each other over ridiculous beliefs. (He probably does get a bit irritated with the more backward lot that won't listen and keep banging on with the religion cobblers but that's our problem).
    Faster than a tent.......
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    I'm not a believer in God and I probably never will be. I could potentially be persuaded but I would need some sort of evidence and that is not going to happen, at any rate I'm apparently missing the point if that is what I am waiting for.

    What makes me sad is that if you believe God created everything and all of the amazing things that happen are God's work (I'm sure that isn't what every religious person thinks) then to me you are missing out on how fantastic the universe really is. It would fundamentally change my appreciation for everything. I know religious people talk about seeing the glory of God in things but to me it's far more amazing not to assume 'God did it'. I could potentially be on board with a 'God' as an inner figure within every person but I think that just shows that most of us don't fully appreciate how our minds work.

    On the denigration point, I don't agree with it but it is sort of understandable that a lot of people don't hold religion in the highest regard seeing as it was not long ago at all that religious people held the moral high ground and ruined thousands of people's lives with what they believe. We are lucky to live in a country where our culture isn't so heavily dictated by religious morality as 1920's Britain, or modern day most of the world.
  • Tashman
    Tashman Posts: 3,400
    Religion is in reality an ordered set of moral codes with some other bits bolted on to ensure compliance!

    I have nothing against the morals at all, and it would be nice if we all just got along :)
  • Finesilver24
    Finesilver24 Posts: 140
    Rolf F wrote:
    Finesilver24 wrote:
    First Aspect wrote:
    What really strikes me about this thread is the willingness to denigrate people who do believe in [a] god.

    I don't. Strongly. But while I can be very critical of people who do believe, and who either shove it down your throat or pity/look down on those who don't, surely there can't be any quarrel with people who just happen to believe in god?
    For me, it's because so much of our society is based on the misguided belief that there is a God, and we don't want to upset him/her/it. Morality is a man-made set of principles, and if we all accept that we could move on and ditch the dark-age drivel. Instead, the concept of a divinely-decreed morality has stifled society for years and it's time it came to an end. Anybody holding on to dated notions is like a luddite holding up progress, but with the audacity to claim that they know there is a God and that they know what he wants.

    But that's an objection to religion - not god. How do we know (and this is ultimately what sinks all religions) that there is a god but he doesn't give a shoot what we get up to? He's just happy to watch us live our lives and only interferes occasionally by giving us a prod with things like industrial revolutions and science to help us along so we don't waste time killing each other over ridiculous beliefs. (He probably does get a bit irritated with the more backward lot that won't listen and keep banging on with the religion cobblers but that's our problem).
    Religion is a lifestyle based on a belief in God. God is a made up notion. Religion is a lifestyle based on a made up notion. It's like being a hipster (made up lifestyle) but with added snugness (because you follow a divine being), and that lifestyle choice affects my lifestyle through legislation.

    There is, and never has been, and never will be a single piece of evidence to prove there is any God. Unless systematic child abuse in church is God moving in a mysterious way, rather than a priest moving is a frightened child.
  • courtmed
    courtmed Posts: 164
    Finesilver24 wrote:
    First Aspect wrote:
    What really strikes me about this thread is the willingness to denigrate people who do believe in [a] god.

    I don't. Strongly. But while I can be very critical of people who do believe, and who either shove it down your throat or pity/look down on those who don't, surely there can't be any quarrel with people who just happen to believe in god?
    For me, it's because so much of our society is based on the misguided belief that there is a God, and we don't want to upset him/her/it. Morality is a man-made set of principles, and if we all accept that we could move on and ditch the dark-age drivel. Instead, the concept of a divinely-decreed morality has stifled society for years and it's time it came to an end. Anybody holding on to dated notions is like a luddite holding up progress, but with the audacity to claim that they know there is a God and that they know what he wants.

    This is my main issue with it. Part of me thinks each to their own and that's it, but I think even living in the 21st century & having these individual beliefs - the fact that so many other people believe in "God" has such an impact on politics, current affairs etc. Theresa May said God was guiding her Brexit decisions ffs :mrgreen:
  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    courtmed wrote:
    Theresa May said God was guiding her Brexit decisions ffs :mrgreen:

    Brexit is a serious issue, if I was in charge of making those decisions I too would want my imaginary friend as one of my peer group and to make some of the harder decisions for me
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    But I don't understand, Brexit is a good thing* so that must prove the existence of God right?

    *See 421 pages of reasoned debate culminating in mutually accepted agreement viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13028650

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