E-Bikes, what do we think?

doomanic

The only approval I need to get anything I want, not just an e-bike, is from the long haired general not some faceless folk on a forum, that's not why I started this thread. I just thought it would make an interesting topic for conversation.

The Rookie

It is interesting, however most people see e-bikes as something undesirable for the reasons I summarised in my earlier post.

For me they categorically dilute the fun of riding an MTB, as fun is actually what most do it for that rules them out for me. I've not experienced anyone being negative who was riding one (In fact I've only come across one and he's in my cycling club).

rockmonkeysc

Danieljephcott wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

FoD is flat relative to most places popular for mountain biking if you ignore the South East.
FoD is such a small hill it's quicker to push up than use the uplift. I used to allow 15 minutes to push from the car park to the top of the hill when I used to race there.
My record for getting from the top to the bottom was 56 seconds on Corkscrew (fastest time of the day was 51 seconds) . That's going from the highest point to the lowest. It's not much of a hill.
Afan or Cwmcarn must have at least four times as much elevation change.

For beginners such as myself the hills at FOD and Cannock are killer. Just remember we're not all hardcore mtb gods

Nothing to do with hardcore gods. Like I said before, I'm extremely unfit due to a year of illness. By trail centre standards, FoD and Cannock are very flat which makes them a bit boring. I've taken beginners to Afan and they've got around it (just about).
The only way to get fit is to ride up hills without any assistance.

The Rookie

You don't need to ride hills to get fit, you just ride on the flat at the same cadence and effort by picking the right gear and not being lazy and 'cruising'.

For me every commute is a training (fitness) ride.

50, don't look that fit but can embarrass far too many younger riders on hills, OK I'm a sucker for punishment and like riding hills (have a couple of road favourites, in excess of 650m over several km), Cannock I could do on a 1x9 (32/34) without issue.

lostboysaint

oxoman wrote:

Doomanic, please feel free to disappear quickly and quietly after suggesting such heresy. Seriously my own opinion is that for people who cannot pedal due to disability / illness then no issues, however for lazy fat people then NO.

That.

Briggo

Its the weight for the downhills that kills it for me.

Angus Young

For all those arguing what's the issue with what others ride... Nothing. It's none of my business what other people ride. But...

Most people are lazy bastards. Simple fact of life. As a result there is a big market for something that these lazy bastards can ride. And what happens when enough of these lazy bastards buy enough of these bikes? Manufacturers start focusing their energies on e-bikes instead of real bikes and at some point, if you want to get somewhere under your own steam you're going to find that your choice of bike has become very limited. Think that won't happen? Consider how quickly 26 was replaced by 27.5, despite a huge chorus of "I love my 26 and will never change! There's no difference, it's only marketing!". What was it, two years before it became almost impossible to buy something at the cutting edge with 26" wheels? The bike makers don't care about what you want, they care about selling bikes. We are a tiny minority so what we think doesn't matter.

Bookmark this post. 10 years from now you won't be able to buy a bike at the leading edge of bike design that hasn't got a motor attached. If we're very luck some boutique shops might still be making something that requires you put your back into it. It's inevitable. Enjoy this while it lasts guys, pedal power is in its last days.

rockmonkeysc

If that happens I'm giving up for good. Time to go climbing instead, unless they put an elevator on my favourite cliff

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

If that happens I'm giving up for good. Time to go climbing instead, unless they put an elevator on my favourite cliff

Well they already replaced El Camino del Rey with a nice safe walkway so your favourite climb could be next.

You can't do this anymore...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmDhRvvs5Xw

rockmonkeysc

Unlikely. No one else likes my favourite climb because it's a long walk in, half covered in ivy, never fully dries out and is loose as yer mum.

kevinharley

Angus Young wrote:

Most people are lazy bastards. Simple fact of life. As a result there is a big market for something that these lazy bastards can ride. And what happens when enough of these lazy bastards buy enough of these bikes? Manufacturers start focusing their energies on e-bikes instead of real bikes and at some point, if you want to get somewhere under your own steam you're going to find that your choice of bike has become very limited ... Bookmark this post. 10 years from now you won't be able to buy a bike at the leading edge of bike design that hasn't got a motor attached. If we're very luck some boutique shops might still be making something that requires you put your back into it. It's inevitable. Enjoy this while it lasts guys, pedal power is in its last days.

Well, until Angus's words of gloom, I was quite prepared to align myself to the "e-bikes are not for me, but hey, live and let live" side of the debate, but now I'm not so sure ...

For me, I have no desire to try, buy or own an e-bike, and MTB-ing for me is, absolutely, about being outside, exploring trails, under my own steam, and with whatever fitness and energy I have in the tank. I'm 48 now and mostly hold my own with my riding buddies 10-15 years younger, and in some cases am much fitter (if less gnarly!) But I am at the age when I can foresee a glimpse of the choice available to me in say 20-30 years time. I would love to be riding my bike still, and preferably under my own steam, into my 60's, 70's and 80's. But the reality is that old-age ailments (eg arthritis), or other life-limiting ailments (injury, cancer, lung disease, heart problems) are likely to increasingly limit that. That being so, do I want to vegetate on the sofa, getting my MTB fix just from watching YouTube clips ... or do I want to maximise the potential for me to continue to enjoy a hobby I love, and appreciating the trails and the fresh air? If an ebike, in 30 years time, is the price to pay, then so be it (I will of course defer to all the rest of you young purists MTFU'ing the techy ascents under their own steam, by waiting patiently behind you )

Angus Young

kevinharley wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

Most people are lazy bastards. Simple fact of life. As a result there is a big market for something that these lazy bastards can ride. And what happens when enough of these lazy bastards buy enough of these bikes? Manufacturers start focusing their energies on e-bikes instead of real bikes and at some point, if you want to get somewhere under your own steam you're going to find that your choice of bike has become very limited ... Bookmark this post. 10 years from now you won't be able to buy a bike at the leading edge of bike design that hasn't got a motor attached. If we're very luck some boutique shops might still be making something that requires you put your back into it. It's inevitable. Enjoy this while it lasts guys, pedal power is in its last days.

Well, until Angus's words of gloom, I was quite prepared to align myself to the "e-bikes are not for me, but hey, live and let live" side of the debate, but now I'm not so sure ...

For me, I have no desire to try, buy or own an e-bike, and MTB-ing for me is, absolutely, about being outside, exploring trails, under my own steam, and with whatever fitness and energy I have in the tank. I'm 48 now and mostly hold my own with my riding buddies 10-15 years younger, and in some cases am much fitter (if less gnarly!) But I am at the age when I can foresee a glimpse of the choice available to me in say 20-30 years time. I would love to be riding my bike still, and preferably under my own steam, into my 60's, 70's and 80's. But the reality is that old-age ailments (eg arthritis), or other life-limiting ailments (injury, cancer, lung disease, heart problems) are likely to increasingly limit that. That being so, do I want to vegetate on the sofa, getting my MTB fix just from watching YouTube clips ... or do I want to maximise the potential for me to continue to enjoy a hobby I love, and appreciating the trails and the fresh air? If an ebike, in 30 years time, is the price to pay, then so be it (I will of course defer to all the rest of you young purists MTFU'ing the techy ascents under their own steam, by waiting patiently behind you )

I'm 54, so I hear you on the age thing.

While I have no desire to buy or own an e-bike, I have tried one and it was actually good fun. But only for a while. While bolting up a hill as if you're superman is quite charming at first and does put a smile on your face, it starts to wear thin after a while. For me, personally, it became unsatisfying. I like not being able to make a climb. And then coming back and back again until I crack it. There's a sense a achievement there that you just can't get with an e-bike because it wasn't all you.

shimanobottombracket

fat daddy wrote:

Why do people care what others do or have ?

Seriously, if some one has an e-bike how on earth do you let that ruin your ride ... so they might overtake you on a climb, big deal, someone better might overtake you as well.

Live and let live

Nice idea that. Its seldom implemented tho. "Live and f' off all others" is more the norm nowadays.

batmo

I remember being about 11 years old and going on my first weekend away in North Wales with the Scouts and getting my first taste of hillwalking. It was a pretty cold and damp time and the available gear was Army surplus trousers, woolly jumpers and waterproofs with the breath-ability of a bin bag. Not surprisingly we saw no-one else all day.

With the advent of cordura boots, gore-tex jackets and wicking base layers, the walking trails seem to be verging on overcrowded these days, which means more erosion, more litter, more chance of encountering the uncouth percentage.

This is what concerns me about e-bikes. While it would be lovely to give the less capable a chance to experience the joy of off-road cycling and denying anyone access to the countryside seems wrong, I can't escape from the feeling that the absence of other people makes a big contribution to what many of us enjoy.

Hinaultscrapcousin

Proper, non-throttle, pedal-assist e-bikes at the legal power limit I have no problem with. My issue is that I don't think anyone but an expert can tell at a glance whether a bike is legal or illegal. Many people already dislike mountain bikers and want us off as many trails as possible, illegal e-bikes will make their arguments much better.


For what it's worth I ride a rigid, steel, drop barred bike with bar end shifters but I'm not a luddite!!

The Rookie

Noting that throttled bikes are pseudo legal as the legislation is being changed and forces been instructed not to prosecute.

As you say, a simple cheat dongle is hard to spot!

Crazyjenkins01

I've just seen a deliveroo rider on a Heibike ebike. Thought that was a good idea!

LimitedGarry

Well if anything is going to spark significant controversy, it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEdETIjfngo

Technically, it's a moped, but people still call it e-bike and it's enough for some people to mark all e-bikers dangerous and reckless.

Stevo_666

e downhill bike anyone? :shock:
http://www.descent-world.co.uk/2016/11/15/tested-haibike-xduro-dwnhill/
Suppose it might come in handy if the uplift van breaks down.

Rockmonkey will love it

LimitedGarry

Well, to be fair, downhill is pretty demanding, so some people might be willing to trade the weight for the boost they get in between actual downhill sections - you know, to recover while they ride. And hey, it's a downhill bike that climbs.

Stevo_666

LimitedGarry wrote:

Well, to be fair, downhill is pretty demanding, so some people might be willing to trade the weight for the boost they get in between actual downhill sections - you know, to recover while they ride. And hey, it's a downhill bike that climbs.

There's no uphill sections on the DH trails I ride. Think the idea is you use where there's no uplift. But the van bit is quite sociable.

Would be a bit of fun to see the reaction of xc whippets on hard tails as you cruise past them up the hill

LimitedGarry

Stevo 666 wrote:

LimitedGarry wrote:

Well, to be fair, downhill is pretty demanding, so some people might be willing to trade the weight for the boost they get in between actual downhill sections - you know, to recover while they ride. And hey, it's a downhill bike that climbs.

There's no uphill sections on the DH trails I ride. Think the idea is you use where there's no uplift. But the van bit is quite sociable.

Would be a bit of fun to see the reaction of xc whippets on hard tails as you cruise past them up the hill

Well yeah, but in larger parks, there's wide flat sections where you just ride towards one or more trails. And IMHO the best thing about this is that you can take a DH bike to an AM trail.

I'm an XC rider and often climb into fields where there's a popular spot for motorbikers. Don't really care about them flying past me. I ride up there to challenge myself, not to surpass others.

rockmonkeysc

Why would you want a DH bike on an AM trail?
It'll just make a decent trail boring by ploughing through all the technical sections.

Stevo_666

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Why would you want a DH bike on an AM trail?
It'll just make a decent trail boring by ploughing through all the technical sections.

Exactly. Got an AM bike for that.

LimitedGarry

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Why would you want a DH bike on an AM trail?
It'll just make a decent trail boring by ploughing through all the technical sections.

Because when I say trail, I don't necessarily mean a maintained park.

rockmonkeysc

DH bikes are only fun on DH trails and even then, some DH trails (most in the uk) are more fun on an AM bike.
The only two trails I've ridden in this country which are more fun on a DH bike are Egypt at Gawton and my mates secret trail which has 50 foot gap jumps.

thomasmorris

Chain reaction likes e-bikes (obviously)

Obviously the article above is just an advert, trying to make it 'okay to buy and e-bike' so chain reaction can sell more. I don't think anyone doubts you can put the same effort in for 60 minutes. That's not whats lazy. Its the effort for distance traveled which is the lazy part! Suddenly it takes less effort to do 20 miles, or get to the top of the climb. I think that devalues the experience.

In-fact that video is everything which is wrong with MTB. What once was about getting out and testing yourself against nature and your mates, is now a quick fix of graveled trails, a powered bike, all recorded in HD on multiple 'action cams' and GPS.

People will say 'it's only like getting an uplift', or 'it only adds 250 watts so it's mostly my effort'. The fact is, it's heavy and is more likely to carry a heavier rider and will cause more trail damage.

Currently to get out on your bike to remote places and high summits required some skill and fitness, which in the process of developing most people get to understand how to respect the countryside and other users (obviously you still get idiots). E-bikes are being marketed at those who don't want to build up fitness and skill, they just want to get out and 'do it now'. These will be the people crowding the summits and trail heads.

They put a railway up snowdon, it certainly made the mountain more accessible, but did it make it 'better for walkers'?

If an e-bike is the difference between someone being able to get and ride, then that's fine. But if it's just the difference between someone being arsed to get out and ride then that's just lazy.

cycleclinic

The problem i have ebikes is they change why you ride. Yes you can have a tough ride on one, yes you can go futher in the same time and ride trails that otherwise would be difficult or impossible but thats the rub. Over the last few years i have gotten fit enough to ride further and faster without a motor. I like getting through a trail and thinking my i nearly had to stop but i didn't, i did it.

Last summer i rode the southdowns way on my rigid 29er single speed. I use a 61.5" gear. I figured this would be a proper challange. I did it and felt great the at end. I could do the same route on an electric bike and i would surley beat my time but i dont see how it would be more fun. The challange would be how fast can do it witha motor but the real challange is how fast can i do it on on my geared bike.

Motorcross is a demanding sport and you have a proper engine. If you want to ride trails at speeds you skmplh cant on a bike then motorcross is it. Frankly i would crap myself so ill give that a miss.

One place where e mtb's could be useful is in the DH market where getting a heavy DH bike up a hill and lets face they are better at going down than up, makes a DH day without a lift from a chairlift or tractor far for fun for those that dont crap themselves on the way down.

So for DH bikes i get it for XC bikes no but please avoid me if you do might disconect your battery.

250w that alot a fit rider may have an ftp of 250w a big fit rider may do 350w. Pro's can put out 400+w so no the motor is doing most of the work. Dont kid yourselves.

There is alot i dont like about the mtb world at present. There is alot i like, fat bikes being one but then there are electric fat bikes for those that want to ride the wilderness but have not put the time in get fit enough and have the mental disipline to do it yourself. If you are in the later camp then maybe a motorbike although that is taxing in different ways.

Angus Young

Have you been on the Eggnog?

rockmonkeysc

thecycleclinic wrote:

The problem i have ebikes is they change why you ride. Yes you can have a tough ride on one, yes you can go futher in the same time and ride trails that otherwise would be difficult or impossible but thats the rub. Over the last few years i have gotten fit enough to ride further and faster without a motor. I like getting through a trail and thinking my i nearly had to stop but i didn't, i did it.

Last summer i rode the southdowns way on my rigid 29er single speed. I use a 61.5" gear. I figured this would be a proper challange. I did it and felt great the at end. I could do the same route on an electric bike and i would surley beat my time but i dont see how it would be more fun. The challange would be how fast can do it witha motor but the real challange is how fast can i do it on on my geared bike.

Motorcross is a demanding sport and you have a proper engine. If you want to ride trails at speeds you skmplh cant on a bike then motorcross is it. Frankly i would crap myself so ill give that a miss.

One place where e mtb's could be useful is in the DH market where getting a heavy DH bike up a hill and lets face they are better at going down than up, makes a DH day without a lift from a chairlift or tractor far for fun for those that dont crap themselves on the way down.

So for DH bikes i get it for XC bikes no but please avoid me if you do might disconect your battery.

250w that alot a fit rider may have an ftp of 250w a big fit rider may do 350w. Pro's can put out 400+w so no the motor is doing most of the work. Dont kid yourselves.

There is alot i dont like about the mtb world at present. There is alot i like, fat bikes being one but then there are electric fat bikes for those that want to ride the wilderness but have not put the time in get fit enough and have the mental disipline to do it yourself. If you are in the later camp then maybe a motorbike although that is taxing in different ways.

I disagree with nearly everything you post on here but I agree with this.