E-Bikes, what do we think?

doomanic

I took a Specialized Levo FSR for a test ride today and loved it.

I started the day firmly in the "they're cheating" camp but now I'm not so sure. If you're a lazy knacker not prepared to put any effort it then yes, they pretty much are cheating, but if you work as hard on an e-bike as you do on a normal bike they allow you go further, faster, than before. For me, the turning point was realising that repeating fun sections suddenly became a much more realistic prospect.

What do you all think about them? Actual riding experiences would be good to hear.

rockmonkeysc

There's no place for motors in mountain biking.
Unless their riders are prepared to sit behind riders on proper bikes on climbs they shouldn't be on trails. They shouldn't expect mountain bike riders to pull over for them.

cooldad

I love motorcycles. But they are not bicycles.

fat daddy

Why do people care what others do or have ?

Seriously, if some one has an e-bike how on earth do you let that ruin your ride ... so they might overtake you on a climb, big deal, someone better might overtake you as well.

Live and let live

doomanic

RockmonkeySC wrote:

There's no place for motors in mountain biking.
Unless their riders are prepared to sit behind riders on proper bikes on climbs they shouldn't be on trails. They shouldn't expect mountain bike riders to pull over for them.

So a "proper" bike should have priority? What about two "proper" bikes, where one is ridden by a racing snake and is coming up behind a fat knacker who's trying his best? By that logic the fat knacker has no need to allow the snake past. A mannerless rider will be mannerless regardless of what type of bike (s)he owns. I've had snakes barge past me on many occasions without ever giving me a chance to pull over, usually to get held up by them on the next descent.

cooldad wrote:

I love motorcycles. But they are not bicycles.

Actually, they are. Just different.

oxoman wrote:

Doomanic, please feel free to disappear quickly and quietly after suggesting such heresy. Seriously my own opinion is that for people who cannot pedal due to disability / illness then no issues, however for lazy fat people then NO.

So e-bike = triggered then?
It looks like some of you stopped reading after the first sentence...

fat daddy wrote:

Why do people care what others do or have ?

Seriously, if some one has an e-bike how on earth do you let that ruin your ride ... so they might overtake you on a climb, big deal, someone better might overtake you as well.

Live and let live

A sensible outlook. One that clearly won't be well received.

Anonymous

I have a KTM Macina Force 29 with the Bosch crank drive motor ... it's lots of fun !

I was in the " electric ?? That's cheating """ camp until I tried one ... two weeks later I bought one

LimitedGarry

Really an interesting thing.
"Lazy people" won't bother to buy an e-bike (I'd rather call it smart bike or something, to avoid confusion with electronic powered bikes) to ride trails and stuff. They'll buy something that doesn't require effort to move around.

Seth from Seth's Bike Hacks covered the topic quite well, I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ap_7TPZ_rY

For some people, it could be an entry point to biking, for others, it might be the only thing they can ride after injuries. And of course, there'll be those for whom it's simply fun. And as with all kinds of entertainment - no-one should feel entitled to dictate others what is and what isn't fun. So why not just stick to yours and let others have theirs?

To be quite honest, I can indirectly relate to a certain demographic of people who would want this. I have the time and dedication to ride almost daily. As a result, very few people I know could keep up with me if I was leading the ride, especially on 50+km trips. Some of them asked me whether I actually enjoy riding out with them. So there's always a debate about different levels of riding and riding for sport and riding with friends being two activities I really enjoy. Many of them wish they themselves had the time to ride as often and experience the same kinds of rides.
The beauty of this is that these people may get that experience with an e-bike. As for me, I'd ride with an e-biker any day, assuming he or she would pay for beer after each long climb.

rockmonkeysc

Someone making an effort to ride up a hill shouldn't be expected to move across for a lazy b#stard on an e bike. Moving across for another rider who is genuinely faster is fine.
If you're pushing hard to get up a tough climb, the last thing you want is to pull over and then get going again so someone can cruise past on an e bike.
They aren't mountain bikes and have no place on mountain bike trails.
British Cycling have said that they won't ever allow them in BC events or races. They said they will leave that up to the FIA. If BC won't allow them, that excludes them from the vast majority of cycling events and even clubs as most are insured by BC.

Anonymous

Lazy bastard on an e bike ........? ( quoting last poster )

I have had my e bike since August last year ... I average around 150 miles a week on it on the lowest assist level ..... it only has 9 gears...

I've ridden Dalby and Gisburn Forests and had no negative reactions from " proper mountain bikers "

Is that considered lazy ??

If any form of cycling encourages people to get out on two wheels it must be a good thing ??

doomanic

By that logic, anyone making an effort on a climb shouldn't have to move over for a faster rider.
Why do you assume an e-bike rider is lazy? If they are in maximum attack mode up a climb they'll be putting just as much effort into the climb as anyone else, just going faster.

rockmonkeysc

It's taking the easy option therefore lazy. I know people who ride 150 miles a week without needing an electric motor. They have a place for disabled people but that's all.
Cycling is an escape from technology. It's about using your fitness to get places and enjoy being out in the country.

Anonymous

RockmonkeySC wrote:

It's taking the easy option therefore lazy. I know people who ride 150 miles a week without needing an electric motor. They have a place for disabled people but that's all.
Cycling is an escape from technology. It's about using your fitness to get places and enjoy being out in the country.

You ridden one then ?

doomanic

RockmonkeySC wrote:

It's taking the easy option therefore lazy. I know people who ride 150 miles a week without needing an electric motor. They have a place for disabled people but that's all.
Cycling is an escape from technology. It's about using your fitness to get places and enjoy being out in the country.

Do you ride a steel framed rigid bike with thumb shifters? No? Hmm...

cooldad

Nope, nor a motorcycle on MTB trails.

LimitedGarry

E-bikes will keep on getting banned from purpose built MTB trails because of the potential danger they could pose to regular riders.

E-bikes are generally slower than regular bikes equipped with good riders, the only exception might be the long climbs. There are different power assist modes, but in general, the e-bike will only assist you up to a certain point, usually around 25km/h, which isn't really that fast and you do need to put decent effort even before you reach it. Once you get over that point, you're reminded how freaking heavy your bike is.
The only problem will be when someone manages to hack the bike and allow the assist to keep kicking up to let's say 35km/h. At that point, you're really breaching the limits of what most mountain bikers can do even on tarmac and combined with the acceleration, you'll be dangerous to others, probably even yourself.

That matter aside, I don't see why so many people feel offended. Escape from technology and what not - if that's what keeps you riding, so be it. Doesn't have to be everyone's reason to ride. I ride mainly for the feel of coming home exhausted and enjoying the ride itself. I still keep tabs on my emails, texts and calls even during the ride. When having a break, I sometimes play games on my phone. So how about I tell you that your reason for riding isn't valid? The bike alone is a pretty significant piece of technology. How about I go tell a downhiller that they shouldn't be riding because they didn't earn the descent by climbing it first? How about I scorn everyone with a full suspension for paying their way towards an easier ride? It seems equally idiotic to me.

YellaBelly

I tried one at the Cycle Show and really didn't like it. I'd never want one myself but I race and it takes away the fitness element I enjoy. Rockmonkey argues it's cheating, I'd argue no more than getting an uplift is. For me a trail climbs and descends, that's the way it works and taking the climb away is to take half of mountain biking away. But that, right there, is proof of everyone enjoying their hobby differently and in their own way. There's nothing wrong with that and why should anybody else care what your doing, as long as your enjoying yourself and being respectful. I can think of quite a few perfectly acceptable reasons why someone would want an ebike. But as I've already said, the only reason they really need is that they want to get one. It's nobody else's business or problem as long as it's used considerately, which is no different to being on a non-electric bike.

rockmonkeysc

The problem will be if they become too common at trail centres. It's going to get really annoying if you're grinding away up a long climb and keep getting asked to pull over for e bikes who can climb twice as fast for less effort.
Some purpose built trail centres are banning them which I think is right. They're not compatible with normal bikes on the same trails.
I have tried one and it makes climbing easier and, for me less satisfying. I also didn't like the extra weight on descents. I'll stick with proper mountain bikes.

rockmonkeysc

doomanic wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

It's taking the easy option therefore lazy. I know people who ride 150 miles a week without needing an electric motor. They have a place for disabled people but that's all.
Cycling is an escape from technology. It's about using your fitness to get places and enjoy being out in the country.

Do you ride a steel framed rigid bike with thumb shifters? No? Hmm...

My bike has very old fashioned technology. Suspension is nothing but a few levers and some well set up valves.

The Rookie

doomanic wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

It's taking the easy option therefore lazy. I know people who ride 150 miles a week without needing an electric motor. They have a place for disabled people but that's all.
Cycling is an escape from technology. It's about using your fitness to get places and enjoy being out in the country.

Do you ride a steel framed rigid bike with thumb shifters? No? Hmm...

Which has got absolutely nothing to do with it at all.

doomanic

I was back at the FoD today, slumming it on my non-assisted pedal cycle. I had a fantastic time; a lap of the red, two laps of the blue and the lower section of the red again. On a couple of the really long climbs (to unfit me) I found myself wondering how well the Levo would cope with the ruts and roots but that was the only time I thought of it. Would I have had more fun on the Levo? Possibly, but only if I did twice the distance. Would I have felt the same sense of achievement at cleaning the climbs? Of course not but that doesn't stop me thinking they are ace and have a place in the MTB world.

Considering how hung up people are about the latest go faster/be lighter/suspend better gizmo there's a lot of Luddites about.

cooldad

Nothing to do with being a luddite. It's not new. People have been powering bicycles for more than a century.

rockmonkeysc

doomanic wrote:

I was back at the FoD today, slumming it on my non-assisted pedal cycle. I had a fantastic time; a lap of the red, two laps of the blue and the lower section of the red again. On a couple of the really long climbs (to unfit me) I found myself wondering how well the Levo would cope with the ruts and roots but that was the only time I thought of it. Would I have had more fun on the Levo? Possibly, but only if I did twice the distance. Would I have felt the same sense of achievement at cleaning the climbs? Of course not but that doesn't stop me thinking they are ace and have a place in the MTB world.

Considering how hung up people are about the latest go faster/be lighter/suspend better gizmo there's a lot of Luddites about.

Long climb at Forest of Dean? I've been there many, many times and ridden all the trails many times but I've never found any climb even remotely long.
I'd suggest you might not want to go to Scotland, Lake District, Exmoor, Dartmoor or North Wales. Even with your motor bike you'd probably have a heart attack.

The Rookie

Cycling is a human powered machine, whatever the other improvements it has always been that, e-bikes undo that.

I won't condemn people who use them to get out an enjoy cycling, but they are an issue at trail centres as the extra torque is damaging the trails.

Additionally rather too many are putting out more than the legal 250W which just exacerbates the issue.

For me they just spoil the riding, the thrill of riding a light responsive bike down hills or from challenging yourself going up.

doomanic

You did see the bit in brackets???
Motor bike? Not allowed one of those, the long haired general has forbidden it. A pedal assisted cycle, on the other hand...
I'll ride where I like, on what I like, as long as it's legal. I had no intention of getting an e-bike but I'm starting to think the expense would be worth it just to annoy a few people on climbs, especially the twot today who barged past without so much as a by your leave.

JBA

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Long climb at Forest of Dean? I've been there many, many times and ridden all the trails many times but I've never found any climb even remotely long.

Yeah, but we all know you are a cycling god and could probably output more power than any e-bike.

rockmonkeysc

JBA wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Long climb at Forest of Dean? I've been there many, many times and ridden all the trails many times but I've never found any climb even remotely long.

Yeah, but we all know you are a cycling god and could probably output more power than any e-bike.

After a year of illness I'm extremely unfit. The first place I chose to go due to a lack of difficult climbing was Forest of Dean.
Right now I'd struggle to out climb an octogenarian riding a Brompton while smoking a pipe.
Forest of Dean is flat. It has the flattest and shortest downhill trails in the country.

doomanic

Saying the FoD is flat is utter bollox and makes you sound like an arrogant arse. You've obviously never been on the trails at QECP.

cooldad

He is an ignorant arris, but is not wrong.

But if you want a bicycle with a motor, just buy one. You don't need anyone's approval.

rockmonkeysc

FoD is flat relative to most places popular for mountain biking if you ignore the South East.
FoD is such a small hill it's quicker to push up than use the uplift. I used to allow 15 minutes to push from the car park to the top of the hill when I used to race there.
My record for getting from the top to the bottom was 56 seconds on Corkscrew (fastest time of the day was 51 seconds) . That's going from the highest point to the lowest. It's not much of a hill.
Afan or Cwmcarn must have at least four times as much elevation change.

Danieljephcott

I don't see this huge hang up on E bikes. If anyone wants an e bike then just get one. I can see some benefits of them. I think a lot of people are assuming that all people riding an E bike are ignorant when on climbs. I've never had any issues with anyone on an E bike. TBH the worst people on trials are the wannabe pros, so rude and have no trial etiquette.

At the same time I've ridden an e bike and they are heavy and for me not as fun because of the weight. I think the only time I would use an e bike would be on some marathon 50 mile ride or something similar but that's only because my fitness level is not good enough yet.

Stop looking for approval just get one if you liked it. The most important thing is your getting out and off the sofa

Danieljephcott

RockmonkeySC wrote:

FoD is flat relative to most places popular for mountain biking if you ignore the South East.
FoD is such a small hill it's quicker to push up than use the uplift. I used to allow 15 minutes to push from the car park to the top of the hill when I used to race there.
My record for getting from the top to the bottom was 56 seconds on Corkscrew (fastest time of the day was 51 seconds) . That's going from the highest point to the lowest. It's not much of a hill.
Afan or Cwmcarn must have at least four times as much elevation change.

For beginners such as myself the hills at FOD and Cannock are killer. Just remember we're not all hardcore mtb gods