Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
-
That is just giving Ukraine membership of NATO isn't it.john80 said:
The only way we could defend the deal is if we said we would treat Ukraine as a NATO state if russian troops ever entered again. Putin is offering a country to essentially become a victim to russian whims forever. Given Russia shows no sign of becoming anything less of a rogue state I think Ukrainians should pass on this deal.DeVlaeminck said:
Ok it didn't report the demilitarise bit - yes that's not something they are ever going to agree to.pblakeney said:
Ukraine also has to commit to never joining NATO.DeVlaeminck said:Has this been covered?
Russia is reportedly asking for Crimea to be recognised as Russian and the Dombas region(s) to be independent and a constitutional guarantee Ukraine won't join NATO or any other block (may include EU?).
That will see Russia cease the conflict immediately - and I'm assuming withdraw.
Nobody believes the offer to be honest or genuine in the long term.
I imagine that the rest of it is something that the West would be keen Ukraine agreed to though assuming safeguards could be put in place that Russia respected the agreement.
Plus with the added bonus of not having to contribute.
0 -
NATO just needs to realise that there needs to be a wall of countries that are in and Russia if it wants to cross needs to accept that it just gets wiped out using traditional arms. This pandering to Putin with is letting him have a wall of puppet countries is not the solution. He needs to be taught how to read a map by force as that is all he understands. If China want to support him then they can fuck off as well. You want the benefit of working and trading with a rules based international community then the deal is you have to obey the rules. Ukraine will be in NATO by the end of this assuming Ukrainians can make this difficult enough for long enough. Whilst there are a load of old dears in Moscow that swallow his media narrative my money is on him struggling to recruit young men to join his crusade as he is going to need a few soon.ballysmate said:
That is just giving Ukraine membership of NATO isn't it.john80 said:
The only way we could defend the deal is if we said we would treat Ukraine as a NATO state if russian troops ever entered again. Putin is offering a country to essentially become a victim to russian whims forever. Given Russia shows no sign of becoming anything less of a rogue state I think Ukrainians should pass on this deal.DeVlaeminck said:
Ok it didn't report the demilitarise bit - yes that's not something they are ever going to agree to.pblakeney said:
Ukraine also has to commit to never joining NATO.DeVlaeminck said:Has this been covered?
Russia is reportedly asking for Crimea to be recognised as Russian and the Dombas region(s) to be independent and a constitutional guarantee Ukraine won't join NATO or any other block (may include EU?).
That will see Russia cease the conflict immediately - and I'm assuming withdraw.
Nobody believes the offer to be honest or genuine in the long term.
I imagine that the rest of it is something that the West would be keen Ukraine agreed to though assuming safeguards could be put in place that Russia respected the agreement.
Plus with the added bonus of not having to contribute.0 -
.
in what way? they slotted himthegreatdivide said:.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
We're all pro-Ukraine as they are the victim of nonsensical aggression, but Ukraine suffers from what most FSU countries have, in that it is rife with corruption.john80 said:
NATO just needs to realise that there needs to be a wall of countries that are in and Russia if it wants to cross needs to accept that it just gets wiped out using traditional arms. This pandering to Putin with is letting him have a wall of puppet countries is not the solution. He needs to be taught how to read a map by force as that is all he understands. If China want to support him then they can censored off as well. You want the benefit of working and trading with a rules based international community then the deal is you have to obey the rules. Ukraine will be in NATO by the end of this assuming Ukrainians can make this difficult enough for long enough. Whilst there are a load of old dears in Moscow that swallow his media narrative my money is on him struggling to recruit young men to join his crusade as he is going to need a few soon.ballysmate said:
That is just giving Ukraine membership of NATO isn't it.john80 said:
The only way we could defend the deal is if we said we would treat Ukraine as a NATO state if russian troops ever entered again. Putin is offering a country to essentially become a victim to russian whims forever. Given Russia shows no sign of becoming anything less of a rogue state I think Ukrainians should pass on this deal.DeVlaeminck said:
Ok it didn't report the demilitarise bit - yes that's not something they are ever going to agree to.pblakeney said:
Ukraine also has to commit to never joining NATO.DeVlaeminck said:Has this been covered?
Russia is reportedly asking for Crimea to be recognised as Russian and the Dombas region(s) to be independent and a constitutional guarantee Ukraine won't join NATO or any other block (may include EU?).
That will see Russia cease the conflict immediately - and I'm assuming withdraw.
Nobody believes the offer to be honest or genuine in the long term.
I imagine that the rest of it is something that the West would be keen Ukraine agreed to though assuming safeguards could be put in place that Russia respected the agreement.
Plus with the added bonus of not having to contribute.
They have quite a few hoops to jump through before the are eligible to be part of NATO - rightly so. If they meet those (if they even survive the war), then sure, then we can consider it.0 -
Can't be worse than the UK, surely?0
-
Russia's deputy PM threatens to spite own face:Novak cited Germany’s decision last month to halt the certification of Nord Stream 2, a secondary pipeline, saying: “We have every right to take a matching decision and impose an embargo on gas pumping through the Nord Stream 1 gas pipeline.”
He claimed it would be impossible to quickly find a replacement for Russian oil on the European market. “It will take years, and it will still be much more expensive for European consumers. Ultimately, they will be hurt the worst by this outcome,” he said.0 -
The Russian criteria for withdrawal mirrors their pretext for invasion.
They were lying then and I have no reason to doubt, they are lying now.
For sure it’s a face saving measure, but it’s a temporary one.
How long such a peace would hold is anybody’s guess.
If, as is being suggested on here, the Ukraine readily accepts these terms, they are repeating European history.
I doubt that Putin will be repeating his mistakes when the time comes."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
The comparative impact if considering gas alone would be worse for Europe -
I'll repeat, gas represents 8% of Russian exports overall.
Europe imports 37.5% of its gas from Russia.
Oil and oil products represent 37% of Russian exports.0 -
You're not comparing like for like.Dorset_Boy said:The comparative impact if considering gas alone would be worse for Europe -
I'll repeat, gas represents 8% of Russian exports overall.
Europe imports 37.5% of its gas from Russia.
Oil and oil products represent 37% of Russian exports.
What % of total EU imports does Russian gas represent?
What % of Russia's gas exports go to the EU?- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono1 -
All big numbers, and short term would present a big problem. But long term, the EU will surely not suffer from this as much as Russia.Dorset_Boy said:The comparative impact if considering gas alone would be worse for Europe -
I'll repeat, gas represents 8% of Russian exports overall.
Europe imports 37.5% of its gas from Russia.
Oil and oil products represent 37% of Russian exports.0 -
Have you read the bit about the local FSB phoning his boss to report the killing via a normal mobile phone because the secure phone system requires 3G coverage and guess who took out the network.MattFalle said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/vitaly-gerasimov-second-russian-general-killed-ukraine-defence-ministry-claimsMattFalle said:.
in what way? they slotted himthegreatdivide said:0 -
Interesting source .... media for Stenaline
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Looks like their mega secure Era comms system is a pile of sheet.0
-
I think we're going to be seeing fewer cheery tales of Ukrainian resistance in the coming days“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
-
Something very touching about carrying on trying to be silly and funny in the midst of everything
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!1 -
yup. its mega isn't it.rjsterry said:
they're soshit its actually bewildering..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
yeah, read that.thegreatdivide said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/vitaly-gerasimov-second-russian-general-killed-ukraine-defence-ministry-claimsMattFalle said:.
in what way? they slotted himthegreatdivide said:
whats it got to do with LOL'ing atshit kit?
they slotted him..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
Dorset makes a good point that Russia is more reliant on oil over gas, but the European reliance is on Russian gas over Russian oil.
US has already banned Russian oil and they account for roughly 20m barrels a month or 7-10% of US oil imports, and Russia produces roughly 11.3 mb/d and they export roughly 8mb/d0 -
or do you mean the non existent comms?.
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
It's like something out of a Blackadder.thegreatdivide said:Looks like their mega secure Era comms system is a pile of sheet.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
0
-
.
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
I read something about it relying on 3g and 4g but their indiscriminate bombing keeps knocking out the mobile coverage?thegreatdivide said:Looks like their mega secure Era comms system is a pile of sheet.
0 -
yup.rick_chasey said:
I read something about it relying on 3g and 4g but their indiscriminate bombing keeps knocking out the mobile coverage?thegreatdivide said:Looks like their mega secure Era comms system is a pile of sheet.
exactly as R said, its reliant on 3 and 4 G but they did precision strikes to take out all 3 and 4 G transmitters to try and break Ukrainian comms.
SOPs to take out comms so long as you have a back up in place.
its everyday that they keep jeffing up..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
Ah yes insults, always a good argument.First.Aspect said:
This is utter bilge.AndyG785 said:On gas, its generally believed Russia has a war chest of $650 billion, he can survive for a very long time.
..and when he/Russia faces collapse at the hands of Western sanctions, what then? do you think he will go quietly to the table, say Sorry and withdraw his forces or strike out?
We need to threaten military action but at the same time offer him a face saving way out, probably now half of Ukraine, with Lviv the new Western leaning capital.
Of course, had we offered him far less than this pre invasion, none of this war would have happened.
War chest assumed to be much less, on account of moat of it being in now frozen funds.
Also, what are they going to buy with it? Huawei phones, but that's about it.
Finally, appeasement is what got us here.
So Putin left 650 billion in western funds? right.
China will sell him a lot more than 'phones plus he needs funds to supply pay for his army.
But unless we give him a way out, then he will be cornered and that will lead to even more
I cannot help it if you cannot read.... i advocate military action in Ukraine because thats all Putin understands - Strength, by not standing up to him, the risk is a far greater and wider conflict, he also needs a face saving route out.Pross said:
Surely you can spot a troll by now?ballysmate said:
First you say that we should threaten military action to support Ukraine then you say that we can't be certain that Nato would act to support a member nation like Latvia.AndyG785 said:
Is that the same Western powers that promised Ukraine they would honour their security if they gave up Nuclear weapons?Ballysmate said:
For real?
NATO has stated that they will fulfil its obligations should Russia tread on an inch of its members' soil.
You want them to escalate the conflict to stop Putin from lashing out. Can't see how that works.
And you arrogantly advocate "we" give him half of Ukraine. How does that solve the problem of an occupying force on a resisting country? May turn Ukraine into Russia's Vietnam.
Just don't see how you can be so certain the US will risk nuclear destruction for Latvia, they aren't willing to risk it for Ukraine despite the genocide, why would they for a far smaller country?
I have no such certainty, i suspect once Putin waves Nuclear war about we will shrink away as we have done over his last 3 invasions.
As i ve pointed out, we carved up eastern europe with no concern for what the countries involved wanted, we'll do the same for Ukraine if it suits us.
Putin will carry on until he has taken Kyiv and the south of the country, at that point he will negotiate and the place will be partitioned, this is inevitable.
Aside, when i use "we" its not me personally but western alliances, mainly the US, i d have thought that was obvious.
Strange.
But if you don't wish to go down this route then I do not see how YOU can be so sure the US would go to war over Latvia.... the reasons not to intervene in Ukraine hold true for Latvia or Poland.-2 -
Or you can see why Ukraine wanted into nato.0
-
Perhaps bilge was a bit strong. I should have said this appears to be somewhat underinformed.
Rather than bilge.0 -
you're advocating military action, yah?AndyG785 said:
Ah yes insults, always a good argument.First.Aspect said:
This is utter bilge.AndyG785 said:On gas, its generally believed Russia has a war chest of $650 billion, he can survive for a very long time.
..and when he/Russia faces collapse at the hands of Western sanctions, what then? do you think he will go quietly to the table, say Sorry and withdraw his forces or strike out?
We need to threaten military action but at the same time offer him a face saving way out, probably now half of Ukraine, with Lviv the new Western leaning capital.
Of course, had we offered him far less than this pre invasion, none of this war would have happened.
War chest assumed to be much less, on account of moat of it being in now frozen funds.
Also, what are they going to buy with it? Huawei phones, but that's about it.
Finally, appeasement is what got us here.
So Putin left 650 billion in western funds? right.
China will sell him a lot more than 'phones plus he needs funds to supply pay for his army.
But unless we give him a way out, then he will be cornered and that will lead to even more
I cannot help it if you cannot read.... i advocate military action in Ukraine because thats all Putin understands - Strength, by not standing up to him, the risk is a far greater and wider conflict, he also needs a face saving route out.Pross said:
Surely you can spot a troll by now?ballysmate said:
First you say that we should threaten military action to support Ukraine then you say that we can't be certain that Nato would act to support a member nation like Latvia.AndyG785 said:
Is that the same Western powers that promised Ukraine they would honour their security if they gave up Nuclear weapons?Ballysmate said:
For real?
NATO has stated that they will fulfil its obligations should Russia tread on an inch of its members' soil.
You want them to escalate the conflict to stop Putin from lashing out. Can't see how that works.
And you arrogantly advocate "we" give him half of Ukraine. How does that solve the problem of an occupying force on a resisting country? May turn Ukraine into Russia's Vietnam.
Just don't see how you can be so certain the US will risk nuclear destruction for Latvia, they aren't willing to risk it for Ukraine despite the genocide, why would they for a far smaller country?
I have no such certainty, i suspect once Putin waves Nuclear war about we will shrink away as we have done over his last 3 invasions.
As i ve pointed out, we carved up eastern europe with no concern for what the countries involved wanted, we'll do the same for Ukraine if it suits us.
Putin will carry on until he has taken Kyiv and the south of the country, at that point he will negotiate and the place will be partitioned, this is inevitable.
Aside, when i use "we" its not me personally but western alliances, mainly the US, i d have thought that was obvious.
Strange.
But if you don't wish to go down this route then I do not see how YOU can be so sure the US would go to war over Latvia.... the reasons not to intervene in Ukraine hold true for Latvia or Poland.
so i presume you're on your way to sign up for the International Legion as we speak, yah?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
2 -
2
