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  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,333
    edited May 2022
    kingstonian said:

    I understand why the Ukrainians will want to be holding cases against suspected war criminals in their courts, but in the long term they’d be better off it happening in The Hague. The Russians will just point to cases held in Ukraine being sham trials which will undermine credibility.

    the russian federation doesn't allow extradition of its citizens

    russia sending suspects for trial the hague is about as likely as sending the accused gru officers to the uk to stand trial for the salisbury attack
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,460
    sungod said:

    kingstonian said:

    I understand why the Ukrainians will want to be holding cases against suspected war criminals in their courts, but in the long term they’d be better off it happening in The Hague. The Russians will just point to cases held in Ukraine being sham trials which will undermine credibility.

    the russian federation doesn't allow extradition of its citizens

    russia sending suspects for trial the hague is about as likely as sending the accused gru officers to the uk to stand trial for the salisbury attack
    But if Ukraine is already holding them prisoner they wouldn't to have them extradited.
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,926
    Like a modern day Streethawk, cool.
    MattFalle said:

    Posted elsewhere but too cool not to post here

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukrainians-e-bikes-mounted-missiles-blow-up-russian-tanks-175221749.html

  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,333
    Pross said:

    sungod said:

    kingstonian said:

    I understand why the Ukrainians will want to be holding cases against suspected war criminals in their courts, but in the long term they’d be better off it happening in The Hague. The Russians will just point to cases held in Ukraine being sham trials which will undermine credibility.

    the russian federation doesn't allow extradition of its citizens

    russia sending suspects for trial the hague is about as likely as sending the accused gru officers to the uk to stand trial for the salisbury attack
    But if Ukraine is already holding them prisoner they wouldn't to have them extradited.
    ah, yes i see what you mean

    but sending lower ranks to the hague won't change the attitude of russia or its allies, either way they'll claim their people are innocent victims of western enemies

    not my field, but is an individual act of murder a 'war crime'? not many taliban ended up in the hague, the vast majority were dealt with locally

    russian states that it's not a war, fine, all it's personnel are simply foreign criminals/terrorists, seems reasonable ukraine is free to treat them as such

    if they manage to capture some higher ranking officers who ordered/tolerated rape, torture, execution, shelling civilians, etc., and can get the evidence to convict - which may be extremely difficult - might make sense to hand them over to the icc for propaganda purposes, but it'll still be seen as a show trial by the russians
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    Yes, murder is a war crime.

    Was that a serious question?
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,114
    MattFalle said:

    davidof said:

    First.Aspect said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    You're all wrong. The real reason was so that Russia could start making the Moskvich again. Soviet nostalgia personified..

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/16/russia-renault-moscow-factory-revive-soviet-era-moskvitch-car


    Well they aren't going to struggle with computer chip shortages, at least.
    ah so it is a #fakenews
    No, not at all. Renault sold factory, Russians building cars there under separate badge.

    Its just that people don't read articles properly.

    Didn't Rover and MG do this?

    I did, the Guardian claims they will revive a Soviet Era Car, they are not, they are reviving a Soviet Era Brand.
    BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
    Instagramme
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,110
    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    First.Aspect said:

    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.

    Who is the intended audience for the trial?
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    sungod said:

    Pross said:

    sungod said:

    kingstonian said:

    I understand why the Ukrainians will want to be holding cases against suspected war criminals in their courts, but in the long term they’d be better off it happening in The Hague. The Russians will just point to cases held in Ukraine being sham trials which will undermine credibility.

    the russian federation doesn't allow extradition of its citizens

    russia sending suspects for trial the hague is about as likely as sending the accused gru officers to the uk to stand trial for the salisbury attack
    But if Ukraine is already holding them prisoner they wouldn't to have them extradited.
    ah, yes i see what you mean

    but sending lower ranks to the hague won't change the attitude of russia or its allies, either way they'll claim their people are innocent victims of western enemies

    not my field, but is an individual act of murder a 'war crime'? not many taliban ended up in the hague, the vast majority were dealt with locally

    russian states that it's not a war, fine, all it's personnel are simply foreign criminals/terrorists, seems reasonable ukraine is free to treat them as such

    if they manage to capture some higher ranking officers who ordered/tolerated rape, torture, execution, shelling civilians, etc., and can get the evidence to convict - which may be extremely difficult - might make sense to hand them over to the icc for propaganda purposes, but it'll still be seen as a show trial by the russians
    But people like me think it is a sham trial.

    I think the whole "following orders" thing is very complicated. If this 21 yr old believed he would be shot if he did not follow out the order then is he "as guilty" as if he was leaning out the window shooting passers by for fun.

    An if the civilian population had been armed and it was commonly known that they were using phones to pass co-ordinates to Ukrainian forces thent at what what point do you become a combatant and/or spy? what level of suspicion/proof is acceptable and who decides if the rules of engagement are fair?

    I am not passing judgement merely raising issues. I was always amazed how well rules of engagement were observed in Afghanistan.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,110
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.

    Who is the intended audience for the trial?
    Domestic, obviously, but they don't get to choose.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    First.Aspect said:

    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.

    You are making the assumption it is a sham trial. What if it was CCTV footage of said soldier shooting unarmed civilians. Is it still a sham trial. Given the Russians are so badly organised what makes you think they were good at doing war crimes without leaving good evidence.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.

    Who is the intended audience for the trial?
    Domestic, obviously, but they don't get to choose.
    It's a war, people are being angry and hateful at this point, seeing justice served up I imagine is helpful to a lot of people.

    Can't imagine too many Ukrainians are that concerned about how fair it is. The whole thing is deeply unfair and is barely a drop in the ocean of what the Russians are doing to Ukraine and the people who live there.
    _
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.

    Who is the intended audience for the trial?
    Domestic, obviously, but they don't get to choose.
    It's a war, people are being angry and hateful at this point, seeing justice served up I imagine is helpful to a lot of people.

    Can't imagine too many Ukrainians are that concerned about how fair it is. The whole thing is deeply unfair and is barely a drop in the ocean of what the Russians are doing to Ukraine and the people who live there.
    What's completely unfair?

    The trial of a murderer who has confessed to murdering an innocent civilian?
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    surrey_commuter said:

    sungod said:

    Pross said:

    sungod said:

    kingstonian said:

    I understand why the Ukrainians will want to be holding cases against suspected war criminals in their courts, but in the long term they’d be better off it happening in The Hague. The Russians will just point to cases held in Ukraine being sham trials which will undermine credibility.

    the russian federation doesn't allow extradition of its citizens

    russia sending suspects for trial the hague is about as likely as sending the accused gru officers to the uk to stand trial for the salisbury attack
    But if Ukraine is already holding them prisoner they wouldn't to have them extradited.
    ah, yes i see what you mean

    but sending lower ranks to the hague won't change the attitude of russia or its allies, either way they'll claim their people are innocent victims of western enemies

    not my field, but is an individual act of murder a 'war crime'? not many taliban ended up in the hague, the vast majority were dealt with locally

    russian states that it's not a war, fine, all it's personnel are simply foreign criminals/terrorists, seems reasonable ukraine is free to treat them as such

    if they manage to capture some higher ranking officers who ordered/tolerated rape, torture, execution, shelling civilians, etc., and can get the evidence to convict - which may be extremely difficult - might make sense to hand them over to the icc for propaganda purposes, but it'll still be seen as a show trial by the russians
    But people like me think it is a sham trial.

    I think the whole "following orders" thing is very complicated. If this 21 yr old believed he would be shot if he did not follow out the order then is he "as guilty" as if he was leaning out the window shooting passers by for fun.

    An if the civilian population had been armed and it was commonly known that they were using phones to pass co-ordinates to Ukrainian forces thent at what what point do you become a combatant and/or spy? what level of suspicion/proof is acceptable and who decides if the rules of engagement are fair?

    I am not passing judgement merely raising issues. I was always amazed how well rules of engagement were observed in Afghanistan.
    Err - its not a sham trial

    And yes, he is as guilty asfuck.

    He shot the poor bloke

    He admitted to shooting the bloke

    They have evidence he shot the bloke

    End of.
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    MattFalle said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.

    Who is the intended audience for the trial?
    Domestic, obviously, but they don't get to choose.
    It's a war, people are being angry and hateful at this point, seeing justice served up I imagine is helpful to a lot of people.

    Can't imagine too many Ukrainians are that concerned about how fair it is. The whole thing is deeply unfair and is barely a drop in the ocean of what the Russians are doing to Ukraine and the people who live there.
    What's completely unfair?

    The trial of a murderer who has confessed to murdering an innocent civilian?
    No, being invaded by Russia.
    _
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    edited May 2022
    rick_chasey said:

    MattFalle said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    You are missing the point. The point is that it is not in Ukraines national interests to be holding televised sham trials like this. It doesn't matter if he's guilty or not, it doesn't matter if the real perpetrators will never be brought to justice or not. It is about maintaining the moral high ground, because they will need a lot of international help from a lot of countries for a very long time.

    Who is the intended audience for the trial?
    Domestic, obviously, but they don't get to choose.
    It's a war, people are being angry and hateful at this point, seeing justice served up I imagine is helpful to a lot of people.

    Can't imagine too many Ukrainians are that concerned about how fair it is. The whole thing is deeply unfair and is barely a drop in the ocean of what the Russians are doing to Ukraine and the people who live there.
    What's completely unfair?

    The trial of a murderer who has confessed to murdering an innocent civilian?
    No, being invaded by Russia.
    Well that's the understatement of the day.

    Cheers Rick.

    #youdon'tsay
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,110
    I can't decide if you lot are being deliberate obtuse.

    The merits of the case don't really matter in the media war. I'm sure it was celebrated domestically, pretty sure that child actually pulled the trigger, as well.

    However I struggle to see how a hastily arranged and very brief trial, televised to maximise public spectacle, is a good look, or will help persuade the international community to keep its foot on Russia's throat for Ukraines benefit.

    How does this come across in China, India or Brazil? Because don't kid yourself, the world needs China and India not to have any excuses to start economically supporting Russia, or worse.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited May 2022
    First.Aspect said:

    I can't decide if you lot are being deliberate obtuse.

    The merits of the case don't really matter in the media war. I'm sure it was celebrated domestically, pretty sure that child actually pulled the trigger, as well.

    However I struggle to see how a hastily arranged and very brief trial, televised to maximise public spectacle, is a good look, or will help persuade the international community to keep its foot on Russia's throat for Ukraines benefit.

    How does this come across in China, India or Brazil? Because don't kid yourself, the world needs China and India not to have any excuses to start economically supporting Russia, or worse.

    Whoosh.

    Who is the audience?
    _
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,092
    The audience is the whole world - not just the intended audience. It may play well in Ukraine but how does it play in, for example, China ? That's the point FAspect is making.

    It's complex, I assume that the Ukrainian leadership aren't blind to these considerations - after all they affect them far more than they do us. Whether they've made the right call is another matter.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    They captured a war criminal who confessed to his crime.

    Its an open legal trial

    What do you want them to do? Take him out the back and slot him?
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,333
    MattFalle said:

    Yes, murder is a war crime.

    Was that a serious question?

    yes, "is an individual act of murder a 'war crime'?", i'm not referring to any specific case, but i agree not the best phrasing

    the context was trying people for war crimes in the hague vs. the ukrainian authorities using their own criminal law

    what i'm getting at is that what we ethically recognise as a war crime, doesn't mean it can be proven to be one at the icc, or even that the icc would take on the case

    confessions obtained while held in 'hostile' hands can be challenged as obtained under duress, unless the accused reaffirms their guilt to the court, then without reliable witnesses/admissible evidence it probably goes nowhere

    ukraine has the right to prosecute crimes committed by the invaders, happy to see it to do if it acts reasonably, imho so far it seems to be acting to a far higher standard than russia

    the russians are reported to be proposing trying the defenders of mariupol for 'war crimes', their supreme court has scheduled a hearing to decide whether to declare them terrorists, and their parliament is talking about pass a law banning "exchanges of nazi criminals"

    of course it's pure propaganda to shore up putin's false narrative, but if they go ahead there'll be plenty who believe it
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    The Ukranians are trying him for murder in Ukraine under Ukranian law.

    Remember, there is no state of war. The Hague is a completely different kettle of fish.

    He murdered someone, they have the evidence, he's confessed to it.

    Its a legal trial under an independant lreal system trying someone for a crime under that country's law.

    Its legal.
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,333
    MattFalle said:

    The Ukranians are trying him for murder in Ukraine under Ukranian law.

    Remember, there is no state of war. The Hague is a completely different kettle of fish.

    He murdered someone, they have the evidence, he's confessed to it.

    Its a legal trial under an independant lreal system trying someone for a crime under that country's law.

    Its legal.

    we agree completely on this!
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,110
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    I can't decide if you lot are being deliberate obtuse.

    The merits of the case don't really matter in the media war. I'm sure it was celebrated domestically, pretty sure that child actually pulled the trigger, as well.

    However I struggle to see how a hastily arranged and very brief trial, televised to maximise public spectacle, is a good look, or will help persuade the international community to keep its foot on Russia's throat for Ukraines benefit.

    How does this come across in China, India or Brazil? Because don't kid yourself, the world needs China and India not to have any excuses to start economically supporting Russia, or worse.

    Whoosh.

    Who is the audience?
    Whoosh. You saw it, didn't you? Where do you live?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    I can't decide if you lot are being deliberate obtuse.

    The merits of the case don't really matter in the media war. I'm sure it was celebrated domestically, pretty sure that child actually pulled the trigger, as well.

    However I struggle to see how a hastily arranged and very brief trial, televised to maximise public spectacle, is a good look, or will help persuade the international community to keep its foot on Russia's throat for Ukraines benefit.

    How does this come across in China, India or Brazil? Because don't kid yourself, the world needs China and India not to have any excuses to start economically supporting Russia, or worse.

    Whoosh.

    Who is the audience?
    Whoosh. You saw it, didn't you? Where do you live?
    I didn't tbf. I have been exclusively informed on this by this thread.

    The target audience are Ukrainians and I think you are massively overestimating the international impact which is virtually zero.
    _
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,110
    MattFalle said:

    They captured a war criminal who confessed to his crime.

    Its an open legal trial

    What do you want them to do? Take him out the back and slot him?

    It was a show trial. Real murder cases take months and years to come to court. Real war crimes trials take years and decades.

    Did that guy have any option but to confess? Was he incentivized to confess? Did he get an effective defence? Or did the same body appoint both the prosecution and defence attorney?

    Is he even a Russian soldier?

    Was that woman a widow?

    No matter how much bluster you have MF, you actually haven't got a clue either. And if I can spin this as something that looks like a breach of the Geneva Convention, I'm pretty sure Chinese state media can manage as well.

    There are leaders of countries with combined poulations of several billion who don't need much excuse to either not side with the west, or side against the west.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    edited May 2022
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    I can't decide if you lot are being deliberate obtuse.

    The merits of the case don't really matter in the media war. I'm sure it was celebrated domestically, pretty sure that child actually pulled the trigger, as well.

    However I struggle to see how a hastily arranged and very brief trial, televised to maximise public spectacle, is a good look, or will help persuade the international community to keep its foot on Russia's throat for Ukraines benefit.

    How does this come across in China, India or Brazil? Because don't kid yourself, the world needs China and India not to have any excuses to start economically supporting Russia, or worse.

    Whoosh.

    Who is the audience?
    Whoosh. You saw it, didn't you? Where do you live?
    I didn't tbf. I have been exclusively informed on this by this thread.

    Seriously?

    Like seriously, seriously?

    #seriously?
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    I can't decide if you lot are being deliberate obtuse.

    The merits of the case don't really matter in the media war. I'm sure it was celebrated domestically, pretty sure that child actually pulled the trigger, as well.

    However I struggle to see how a hastily arranged and very brief trial, televised to maximise public spectacle, is a good look, or will help persuade the international community to keep its foot on Russia's throat for Ukraines benefit.

    How does this come across in China, India or Brazil? Because don't kid yourself, the world needs China and India not to have any excuses to start economically supporting Russia, or worse.

    Whoosh.

    Who is the audience?
    Whoosh. You saw it, didn't you? Where do you live?


    The target audience are Ukrainians and I think you are massively overestimating the international impact which is virtually zero.
    Seriously?

    Seriously seriously?

    #seriously
    #there'snomilk

    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,110
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    I can't decide if you lot are being deliberate obtuse.

    The merits of the case don't really matter in the media war. I'm sure it was celebrated domestically, pretty sure that child actually pulled the trigger, as well.

    However I struggle to see how a hastily arranged and very brief trial, televised to maximise public spectacle, is a good look, or will help persuade the international community to keep its foot on Russia's throat for Ukraines benefit.

    How does this come across in China, India or Brazil? Because don't kid yourself, the world needs China and India not to have any excuses to start economically supporting Russia, or worse.

    Whoosh.

    Who is the audience?
    Whoosh. You saw it, didn't you? Where do you live?
    I didn't tbf. I have been exclusively informed on this by this thread.

    The target audience are Ukrainians and I think you are massively overestimating the international impact which is virtually zero.
    Perhaps.

    Or there could be a cumulative effect of things like this, and parading captured soldiers covered in field bandages on news conferences, like a few weeks ago.

    Could unravel quite quickly if China decides there is a plausible case for Russia being a victim in some way, and becomes a source or trade, funds and materials for the war effort.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Yeah. Most of what I've read are reports that the Russians have made material advances in three key areas in the last 24hrs and it's not obvious if that's Ukraine retreating as part of a defensive strategy or being pushed back because they're getting beaten.
    _

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