Poo tin... Put@in...

rick_chasey

Anyway, here’s the CEO of the world’s biggest oil trader yesterday

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/commodity-markets-shock-after-russias-ukraine-invasion-vitol-ceo-2022-03-22/

The top concern for Europe is diesel. Europe imports half of its needs from Russia and could face shortages, the trading companies said, with Trafigura adding that Latin America and Africa could also be hit hard.

Jezyboy

First.Aspect said:

Jezyboy said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

I used to research cracking and reforming catalysts used in the oil industry and I have no clue how the word fungible applies.

Best guess is its being used as shorthand in a way the author thinks applies to crude oil. But its no helpful because no one thought of crude oil as fungible in the first place, so it doesn't thelp to be told that it isn't.

Did they not? You as a chemist obviously didn't, but I'd imagine most people's conception is that one barrel is much like another.

Yea, I'd say most people think of one barrel as much like another.

Indeed. So in a one man campaign for plain English, why not just say so?

The diesel you get out of it, in whatever proportion of the whole, is fungible though.

Does that help?

No. Not in the slightest.

But the raw stuff itself is not fungible.

It's a nice word, why not use it.

rjsterry

ddraver said:

This is fairly basic, yes...

Oil what comes out of the ground in different places is different.

Stevo_666 said:

ddraver said:

You are now sealioning the O&G equivalent of 1 + 1 = 2...

As predictable as the sunrise...get back under your bridge, I'll ask questions where I see fit

😅Oh, suddenly you are a geologist?

First.Aspect

Jezyboy said:

First.Aspect said:

Jezyboy said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

I used to research cracking and reforming catalysts used in the oil industry and I have no clue how the word fungible applies.

Best guess is its being used as shorthand in a way the author thinks applies to crude oil. But its no helpful because no one thought of crude oil as fungible in the first place, so it doesn't thelp to be told that it isn't.

Did they not? You as a chemist obviously didn't, but I'd imagine most people's conception is that one barrel is much like another.

Yea, I'd say most people think of one barrel as much like another.

Indeed. So in a one man campaign for plain English, why not just say so?

The diesel you get out of it, in whatever proportion of the whole, is fungible though.

Does that help?

No. Not in the slightest.

But the raw stuff itself is not fungible.

It's a nice word, why not use it.

It's trendy bullocks?

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

So across the distillates the most acute oil based shortages will be in diesel and jet fuel it seems, as the Russian oil disproportionately spits out those distillates versus other oil around the world (crude is not as fungible as people think.)

Grain, mainly wheat is obviously shot to pieces and ME and NA in particular do not have infrastructure set up to take on wheat elsewhere.

I do think there is still room for wage growth before we hit wage led inflation. I think if the gov't is smart they should really tweak the biases around what gets taxed to soften the blow.

I do think it's odd the govt is so quick to freeze or cut petrol/diesel taxes but not public transport costs - you'd think that's a winner for multiple reasons.

You'll have to explain this to us as I don't get it. Crude oil is distilled into different fractions and yields the different petroleum products ranging the the heavy stuff (larger molecules) such as bitumen, fuel oil, thought to the lighter stuff (smaller molecules) - petrol, bottled gas etc.
https://bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zyvc6fr/revision/1#:~:text=Fractional%20distillation%20separates%20a%20mixture,and%20cool%20at%20the%20top.
Are you saying that Russian crude is chemically different from crude that other countries produce?

Given you know a few random oil traders, I'm sure you'll be able to give a scientific answer

Yeah. Crude from different areas has different properties. Some have more or less sulphur (sweet vs sour), some have different proportions of different oil products etc.

Refineries can't take in crude from anywhere; they're set up to take oil from certain areas that share certain properties.

The other elements like sulphur have no bearing on how much diesel or jet fuel comes out of a given batch of crude. That will depend on the proportions of longer and shorter chain hydrocarbons. Do you have a source that states Russian crude has higher proportions of these larger hydrocarbon molecules?

Also, got any links re refineries having to be source specific when it ones to crude? In the link I posted it shows how refineries process crude - a different composition of crude batches should just yield different proportions of the different fractions.

Volga oil is heavy Siberian light - it’s all different depending where you dig it out

Well duh.

kingstongraham

I want to know why bbc bitesize doesn't go into all the details of how different sulfur content affects the refining process. It's an outrage.

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

I want to know why bbc bitesize doesn't go into all the details of how different sulfur content affects the refining process. It's an outrage.

Pretty sure that socks and nocks are part of GCSE science though. I know that's more advanced than 95% of the people who actually passed GCSE science can cope with, though.

imposter2.0

kingstongraham said:

Actually relevant though. How easy is it to move the Netherlands off Russian oil and onto Iranian oil?

briantrumpet said:

With the oil thing,

imposter2.0 said:

I was accused of 'splitting hairs' on the definition of 'proxy' earlier in this thread.

And now we are discussing the relative benefits of the component content of crude oil, ffs...

With the 'proxy' thing, I think people weren't arguing about what was going on, just what word was appropriate for it. It's a bit like saying if you make two rounds of bread and use them to make a sandwich, if you cut it into two, have you got two sandwiches, or two halves of one sandwich?: we can visualise the concept, but not everyone will agree how to label it.

With the 'oil' thing, the argument is about the thing itself, not the label.

See Feynman, 'Map of a cat'.

Ironically, I think there are more posts on here about oil chemistry now than there ever were about proxies.

MattFalle

.

kingstongraham said:

I want to know why bbc bitesize doesn't go into all the details of how different sulfur content affects the refining process. It's an outrage.

This exactly.

I didn't see Newsround covering it either.

all gone toshit since John Craven left I reckon.

First.Aspect

imposter2.0 said:

kingstongraham said:

Actually relevant though. How easy is it to move the Netherlands off Russian oil and onto Iranian oil?

briantrumpet said:

With the oil thing,

imposter2.0 said:

I was accused of 'splitting hairs' on the definition of 'proxy' earlier in this thread.

And now we are discussing the relative benefits of the component content of crude oil, ffs...

With the 'proxy' thing, I think people weren't arguing about what was going on, just what word was appropriate for it. It's a bit like saying if you make two rounds of bread and use them to make a sandwich, if you cut it into two, have you got two sandwiches, or two halves of one sandwich?: we can visualise the concept, but not everyone will agree how to label it.

With the 'oil' thing, the argument is about the thing itself, not the label.

See Feynman, 'Map of a cat'.

Ironically, I think there are more posts on here about oil chemistry now than there ever were about proxies.

That's because it's interesting and relevant, rather than a proxy for another argument years ago.

See what I did there?

imposter2.0

MattFalle said:

.

kingstongraham said:

I want to know why bbc bitesize doesn't go into all the details of how different sulfur content affects the refining process. It's an outrage.

This exactly.

I didn't see Newsround covering it either.

all gone toshit since John Craven left I reckon.

Newsround's loss was Countryfile's gain....

webboo

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

So across the distillates the most acute oil based shortages will be in diesel and jet fuel it seems, as the Russian oil disproportionately spits out those distillates versus other oil around the world (crude is not as fungible as people think.)

Grain, mainly wheat is obviously shot to pieces and ME and NA in particular do not have infrastructure set up to take on wheat elsewhere.

I do think there is still room for wage growth before we hit wage led inflation. I think if the gov't is smart they should really tweak the biases around what gets taxed to soften the blow.

I do think it's odd the govt is so quick to freeze or cut petrol/diesel taxes but not public transport costs - you'd think that's a winner for multiple reasons.

You'll have to explain this to us as I don't get it. Crude oil is distilled into different fractions and yields the different petroleum products ranging the the heavy stuff (larger molecules) such as bitumen, fuel oil, thought to the lighter stuff (smaller molecules) - petrol, bottled gas etc.
https://bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zyvc6fr/revision/1#:~:text=Fractional%20distillation%20separates%20a%20mixture,and%20cool%20at%20the%20top.
Are you saying that Russian crude is chemically different from crude that other countries produce?

Given you know a few random oil traders, I'm sure you'll be able to give a scientific answer

Yeah. Crude from different areas has different properties. Some have more or less sulphur (sweet vs sour), some have different proportions of different oil products etc.

Refineries can't take in crude from anywhere; they're set up to take oil from certain areas that share certain properties.

The other elements like sulphur have no bearing on how much diesel or jet fuel comes out of a given batch of crude. That will depend on the proportions of longer and shorter chain hydrocarbons. Do you have a source that states Russian crude has higher proportions of these larger hydrocarbon molecules?

Also, got any links re refineries having to be source specific when it ones to crude? In the link I posted it shows how refineries process crude - a different composition of crude batches should just yield different proportions of the different fractions.

Volga oil is heavy Siberian light - it’s all different depending where you dig it out

No wonder fuels gone up in price if they are having to dig it out now.

First.Aspect

webboo said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

So across the distillates the most acute oil based shortages will be in diesel and jet fuel it seems, as the Russian oil disproportionately spits out those distillates versus other oil around the world (crude is not as fungible as people think.)

Grain, mainly wheat is obviously shot to pieces and ME and NA in particular do not have infrastructure set up to take on wheat elsewhere.

I do think there is still room for wage growth before we hit wage led inflation. I think if the gov't is smart they should really tweak the biases around what gets taxed to soften the blow.

I do think it's odd the govt is so quick to freeze or cut petrol/diesel taxes but not public transport costs - you'd think that's a winner for multiple reasons.

You'll have to explain this to us as I don't get it. Crude oil is distilled into different fractions and yields the different petroleum products ranging the the heavy stuff (larger molecules) such as bitumen, fuel oil, thought to the lighter stuff (smaller molecules) - petrol, bottled gas etc.
https://bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zyvc6fr/revision/1#:~:text=Fractional%20distillation%20separates%20a%20mixture,and%20cool%20at%20the%20top.
Are you saying that Russian crude is chemically different from crude that other countries produce?

Given you know a few random oil traders, I'm sure you'll be able to give a scientific answer

Yeah. Crude from different areas has different properties. Some have more or less sulphur (sweet vs sour), some have different proportions of different oil products etc.

Refineries can't take in crude from anywhere; they're set up to take oil from certain areas that share certain properties.

The other elements like sulphur have no bearing on how much diesel or jet fuel comes out of a given batch of crude. That will depend on the proportions of longer and shorter chain hydrocarbons. Do you have a source that states Russian crude has higher proportions of these larger hydrocarbon molecules?

Also, got any links re refineries having to be source specific when it ones to crude? In the link I posted it shows how refineries process crude - a different composition of crude batches should just yield different proportions of the different fractions.

Volga oil is heavy Siberian light - it’s all different depending where you dig it out

No wonder fuels gone up in price if they are having to dig it out now.

Used to be cheap when all you needed was a spade. Haven't you watched Giant? (James Dean movie)

webboo

No I gave up on him after East of Eden.

First.Aspect

webboo said:

No I gave up on him after East of Eden.

Yes, he's not done much lately has he.

blazing_saddles

First.Aspect said:

webboo said:

No I gave up on him after East of Eden.

Yes, he's not done much lately has he.

Not since he auditioned for that Porche advert.

First.Aspect

blazing_saddles said:

First.Aspect said:

webboo said:

No I gave up on him after East of Eden.

Yes, he's not done much lately has he.

Not since he auditioned for that Porche advert.

I actually drove past there.

They have a brown sign so tourists can suck air through their teeth and say, gee it's a nasty intersection alright.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

ddraver said:

This is fairly basic, yes...

Oil what comes out of the ground in different places is different.

Stevo_666 said:

ddraver said:

You are now sealioning the O&G equivalent of 1 + 1 = 2...

As predictable as the sunrise...get back under your bridge, I'll ask questions where I see fit

😅Oh, suddenly you are a geologist?

See my post above - I was replying to a different statement by raverboy. I didn't think he was an expert in Sealions

webboo

First.Aspect said:

blazing_saddles said:

First.Aspect said:

webboo said:

No I gave up on him after East of Eden.

Yes, he's not done much lately has he.

Not since he auditioned for that Porche advert.

I actually drove past there.

They have a brown sign so tourists can suck air through their teeth and say, gee it's a nasty intersection alright.

Apparently it’s not quite in the same place as they re did the junction.

ddraver

kingstongraham said:

I want to know why bbc bitesize doesn't go into all the details of how different sulfur content affects the refining process. It's an outrage.

In short - too long for stevo, mind - it's a PITA.

Getting the sulphur out is expensive.

Get it wet and it's become sulfuric acid which tends to play havoc with anything metal on the refinery (which I'm sure you're aware is a lot of it)

Let it into the air and it become hydrogen sulphide which tends to quietly, but very effectively, unalive people.

Working with H2S is a whole level of qualification above "normal" rig or refinery safety qualifications.

It will not surprise most people that refineries don't work on the principal of "chuck any old stuff in the bottom and see what comes out", they re a bit more specialised and efficient than that.

Stevo_666

ddraver said:

kingstongraham said:

I want to know why bbc bitesize doesn't go into all the details of how different sulfur content affects the refining process. It's an outrage.

In short - too long for stevo, mind - it's a PITA.

Getting the sulphur out is expensive.

Get it wet and it's become sulfuric acid which tends to play havoc with anything metal on the refinery (which I'm sure you're aware is a lot of it)

Let it into the air and it become hydrogen sulphide which tends to quietly, but very effectively, unalive people.

Working with H2S is a whole level of qualification above "normal" rig or refinery safety qualifications

I can remember enough of my chemistry degree not to need patronising on this stuff. No centre leftie smartarse points for you again

pinno

imposter2.0 said:

kingstongraham said:

Actually relevant though. How easy is it to move the Netherlands off Russian oil and onto Iranian oil?

briantrumpet said:

With the oil thing,

imposter2.0 said:

I was accused of 'splitting hairs' on the definition of 'proxy' earlier in this thread.

And now we are discussing the relative benefits of the component content of crude oil, ffs...

With the 'proxy' thing, I think people weren't arguing about what was going on, just what word was appropriate for it. It's a bit like saying if you make two rounds of bread and use them to make a sandwich, if you cut it into two, have you got two sandwiches, or two halves of one sandwich?: we can visualise the concept, but not everyone will agree how to label it.

With the 'oil' thing, the argument is about the thing itself, not the label.

See Feynman, 'Map of a cat'.

Ironically, I think there are more posts on here about oil chemistry now than there ever were about proxies.

'proxy' - 40 results
crude oil - 7 results

pinno

Sorry, now adjusted to 41 and 8.

imposter2.0

pinno said:

imposter2.0 said:

kingstongraham said:

Actually relevant though. How easy is it to move the Netherlands off Russian oil and onto Iranian oil?

briantrumpet said:

With the oil thing,

imposter2.0 said:

I was accused of 'splitting hairs' on the definition of 'proxy' earlier in this thread.

And now we are discussing the relative benefits of the component content of crude oil, ffs...

With the 'proxy' thing, I think people weren't arguing about what was going on, just what word was appropriate for it. It's a bit like saying if you make two rounds of bread and use them to make a sandwich, if you cut it into two, have you got two sandwiches, or two halves of one sandwich?: we can visualise the concept, but not everyone will agree how to label it.

With the 'oil' thing, the argument is about the thing itself, not the label.

See Feynman, 'Map of a cat'.

Ironically, I think there are more posts on here about oil chemistry now than there ever were about proxies.

'proxy' - 40 results
crude oil - 7 results

Depends how you look at it, I guess. I haven't counted the 'proxy' posts, but there are at least 25 posts on here related to the oil issue...

ddraver

How many posts are there arguing about the argument about which argument is longer?

('pparently I'm a leftie again. News to my voting record...)

First.Aspect

webboo said:

First.Aspect said:

blazing_saddles said:

First.Aspect said:

webboo said:

No I gave up on him after East of Eden.

Yes, he's not done much lately has he.

Not since he auditioned for that Porche advert.

I actually drove past there.

They have a brown sign so tourists can suck air through their teeth and say, gee it's a nasty intersection alright.

Apparently it’s not quite in the same place as they re did the junction.

Its all flat as fukc around there. They could have moved everything 5 miles in any direction and it would still be the exact same junction.

Think he was on the main road without the lights on anyway.

kingstongraham

So how easy would it be for refineries in the Netherlands to move from high sulfur content Russian oil to low sulfur content Saudi oil?

Easier than the other direction?

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

So how easy would it be for refineries in the Netherlands to move from high sulfur content Russian oil to low sulfur content Saudi oil?

Easier than the other direction?

Yes.

I think the main issue is, once you've separated the fractions, do you have the right capacity for the next stage?

ddraver

(the joker in the Netherlands pack is what they decide to do with Groningen...)

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

ddraver said:

kingstongraham said:

I want to know why bbc bitesize doesn't go into all the details of how different sulfur content affects the refining process. It's an outrage.

In short - too long for stevo, mind - it's a PITA.

Getting the sulphur out is expensive.

Get it wet and it's become sulfuric acid which tends to play havoc with anything metal on the refinery (which I'm sure you're aware is a lot of it)

Let it into the air and it become hydrogen sulphide which tends to quietly, but very effectively, unalive people.

Working with H2S is a whole level of qualification above "normal" rig or refinery safety qualifications

I can remember enough of my chemistry degree not to need patronising on this stuff. No centre leftie smartarse points for you again

😆