How good is Chris Froome?

larkim

The whole day made sense to me, what was unbelievable was the fact that everything necessary conspired for it to work

-Froome was obviously on form (of course, that is relative - it was his relative form to the others, including Pinot who we now know was just 48 hours from hospitalisation and not sleeping well)
-Sky judged everyone elses inability to respond on the Finistere accurately
-Sky's team hadn't been worked hard up to that point as they hadn't held pink so hadn't had to lead the peloton
-The chasing pack had split motives - and no-one had any interest in helping TD as it didn't fit their agendas
-Froome made every pedalstroke count - the chasing pack fannied around

In the end Froome rolled the dice, and they fell for him in the best way possible. But it was as much down to everyone else's role in that day as it was his own individual performance that resulted in the outcome that presented itself at the end.

m.r.m.

Perfect summary.

m.r.m.

mamil314 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

adr82 wrote:

Is Reichenbach a deep-cover Sky agent, cleverly using the Moscon incident to deflect any suspicion he's working for them?

It's definitely this. This is by far the most obvious. I mean his name is Reichenbach, you know a name associated with intrigue and sleuthing.

I hear Woet Poel's secret agent name is Watson.

Reichenbach was simply afraid of the fall.

The scrutiny of Froome's ride on stage 19 can be called "A Study in Pink".

Here's your coat, sir.

Thank you good sir. However, I am still missing my "Hat!"

AtC

DeadCalm

iainf72 wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Still no one has found a 3 odd minute deficit over turned in one day for the last 40 years so I'll say that's my question not answered. As Kelly would say "Its Unbelievable"
Ok Ciao! Washing up beckons

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/vuelta ... 5/results/

Or Nibs 2 years ago in the Giro...

That Heras example is interesting given that he was popped for EPO during the race. Subsequently overturned in the Spanish courts admittedly but mightily suspect all the same.

DeadCalm

Above The Cows wrote:

And? What are you saying that people's form can't improve? If so what's the idea of training at all?

Riding a Grand Tour, especially a GT as hard as this Giro was, is not training. There is simply not enough recovery time from the efforts to allow the body to improve.

apriliarider

DeadCalm wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

And? What are you saying that people's form can't improve? If so what's the idea of training at all?

Riding a Grand Tour, especially a GT as hard as this Giro was, is not training. There is simply not enough recovery time from the efforts to allow the body to improve.

Please list your qualifications or cite any peer reviewed papers to support this statement

Thx

larkim

Is there any evidence that they actually get better, or is it simply that they get a bit lighter and dependingon the state they come in at they can position their physiology to decay less slowly than others around them? Genuinely don't know, so interested!

ShutupJens

DeadCalm wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

And? What are you saying that people's form can't improve? If so what's the idea of training at all?

Riding a Grand Tour, especially a GT as hard as this Giro was, is not training. There is simply not enough recovery time from the efforts to allow the body to improve.

There's a difference between training and riding yourself into form though. Or maybe it would be better classified as not getting worse at the same rate as everyone else. We see the best GT riders come good in week three but maybe that's when everyone else's wheels drop off, it certainly seemed to be the case in this giro

bobmcstuff

If he manages to avoid a ban for the salbutamol thing there's going to be some proper butthurt, almost worth rooting for just on that basis.

Richmond Racer 2

someone just wake me up when it retires

please and thank you

DeadCalm

apriliarider wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

And? What are you saying that people's form can't improve? If so what's the idea of training at all?

Riding a Grand Tour, especially a GT as hard as this Giro was, is not training. There is simply not enough recovery time from the efforts to allow the body to improve.

Please list your qualifications or cite any peer reviewed papers to support this statement

Thx

No.

But if you can point to something that legitimately casts doubt on current orthodox thinking on supercompensation and periodization I'm sure there'd be a few coaches who'd be interested to hear about it.

above_the_cows

kleinstroker wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Pretty sure this is the accepted general viewpoint.

General maybe, but there is the vocal bunch...

Pretty sure they all sat watching stage 19 with folded arms, muttering to themselves or tutting loudly. They could have enjoyed an amazing day but no, they just sat there refusing to believe their own eyes.

I'm pretty sure many of them didn't watch it at all because otherwise I don't know how they could have missed the Dumoulin lost it as much as Froome won it.

DeadCalm

ShutupJens wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

And? What are you saying that people's form can't improve? If so what's the idea of training at all?

Riding a Grand Tour, especially a GT as hard as this Giro was, is not training. There is simply not enough recovery time from the efforts to allow the body to improve.

There's a difference between training and riding yourself into form though. Or maybe it would be better classified as not getting worse at the same rate as everyone else. We see the best GT riders come good in week three but maybe that's when everyone else's wheels drop off, it certainly seemed to be the case in this giro

That's a fair point. The riders are all individuals and deteriorate and recover at different rates but you'd expect someone coming in undercooked to deteriorate quicker than they would if they were fitter and quicker than someone who is at a higher physical level. They will reach the supercompensation point sooner for the same amount of effort. They might benefit more at the end of the race following lengthy rest and recovery but it's hard to see it helping during the race.

Bumo_b

Larkim summed it up for me perfectly, add to that the fact that Froomes solo breakaway from that far out meant that he never had in total more than 3km on the flat fighting the wind makes it a lot more believable. With the bends on a descent it is hard to take cover from the rider in front, and halving the speed (or more) climbing reduces the wind drag by 4 so being solo was less of an issue. If there had been a 20km flat between the last two climbs, the gap (if any) would of been different.
Plus I had a £10 at 18-1 on Froome at the end of week 2, just to gloat.

shirley_basso

Froome is not the greatest, he's the double greatest. Not only did he win the Giro, he picked the stage he won it on as well.

larkim

The whole form thing is a curve isn't it? If performance in objective terms does improve during a GT, the key is how far into the GT your peak is, and how rapid your deterioration is once you've peaked. The really interesting thing for me is how well the riders are tuned into this, and how much (consciously or subconsciously) they manage their outputs.

Would a completely fresh (and trained) Peter Sagan win just about every stage on a GT if he only had to come in and ride one day, or is Chris Froome at 2 weeks into a GT actually fitter and less fatigued than he would be if he came in rested (but specifically prepared) for that day?

Runners generally taper for races like marathons, and the accepted wisdom is that once you've raced flat out there is a recovery window during which you'd not be able to put in the same level of performance. If you were running back to back days as a race you'd be running within yourself every day, even if you did do a little sprint to the finish line. For some reason though this sort of cycle doesn't appear to apply to cyclists, presumably because the impact damage on muscles is different.

DeVlaeminck

Bumo_b wrote:

Plus I had a £10 at 18-1 on Froome at the end of week 2, just to gloat.

Enjoy your retirement.

bompington

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Bumo_b wrote:

Plus I had a £10 at 18-1 on Froome at the end of week 2, just to gloat.

Enjoy your retirement.

I'm really not into gambling but I do find it interesting how the odds are set, and how they change - does anyone know what the longest odds offered on Froome winning were at any point during the Giro? Bumo, did you hit that sweetspot?

fenix

Reading Phillipa thingys comments - she was saying that there's no such thing as a rider riding into form in a GT ?

She obviously knows her stuff but I've heard it said that you can do this so many times over the years that there must be some people who think you can.

pblakeney

Fenix wrote:

Reading Phillipa thingys comments - she was saying that there's no such thing as a rider riding into form in a GT ?

She obviously knows her stuff but I've heard it said that you can do this so many times over the years that there must be some people who think you can.

There is speculation in another thread that the rider is less race weary so basically doesn't fade as much over 3 weeks as the other riders, more than finding fitness.

hypster

PBlakeney wrote:

Fenix wrote:

Reading Phillipa thingys comments - she was saying that there's no such thing as a rider riding into form in a GT ?

She obviously knows her stuff but I've heard it said that you can do this so many times over the years that there must be some people who think you can.

There is speculation in another thread that the rider is less race weary so basically doesn't fade as much over 3 weeks as the other riders, more than finding fitness.

Well that obviously makes a lot of sense as we have seen with riders who have attempted to win the Giro and Tour in recent years, specifically Quintana, Contador and Nibali. It will be interesting to see if Froome can do any better.

bobmcstuff

PBlakeney wrote:

Fenix wrote:

Reading Phillipa thingys comments - she was saying that there's no such thing as a rider riding into form in a GT ?

She obviously knows her stuff but I've heard it said that you can do this so many times over the years that there must be some people who think you can.

There is speculation in another thread that the rider is less race weary so basically doesn't fade as much over 3 weeks as the other riders, more than finding fitness.

This was my assumption - to get into the kind of form Yates was in at the start he had to do a lot of racing and high intensity work before the Giro, and it's incredibly difficult to keep that up for a long time.

Must be a very fine line though because you'd risk being completely outclassed.

There's definitely precedent for riders appearing to come into form later in GTs (whether that's an illusion caused by others fading or not) so there must be something behind it (inb4 bloodbags ).

inseine

Hinault joining in with the whinging.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hinault ... suspended/

blazing_saddles

inseine wrote:

Hinault joining in with the whinging.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hinault ... suspended/

And low and behold, Cyclingmoans is the source, yet again.
Hinault has started looking over his shoulder, because he seems to be talking out of his arse.

inseine

Hinault found the bast way to avoid a positive test was to refuse to go to doping control, even if it meant getting a ban.

bobmcstuff

"He returned a positive test at the Vuelta and afterwards his B-sample proved positive, so he has used doping and he has to be suspended."

Hinault doesn't understand the rules for specified substances, clearly.

milton50

Well the direction this thread went in is annoying.

kleinstroker

Breakdown of Froomes power

https://www.velon.cc/en/news/2018/05/why-397-is-chris-froome-s-winning-giro-d-italia-number

inseine

Milton50 wrote:

Well the direction this thread went in is annoying.

Agreed

bobmcstuff

The "Froome Ka Boom" thread and the stage 19 thread have both gone the same way...