How good is Chris Froome?

m.r.m.

Possibly. Think Froome will have probably retired by the time he isn't in Sky anymore. Think they signed him already, didn't they?

No_Ta_Doctor

M.R.M. wrote:

Possibly. Think Froome will have probably retired by the time he isn't in Sky anymore. Think they signed him already, didn't they?

I think that was the gist of the joke.

Wiggins -> Froome -> Bernal

RichN95.

M.R.M. wrote:

Possibly. Think Froome will have probably retired by the time he isn't in Sky anymore. Think they signed him already, didn't they?

The challenger that is hardest to get rid of is the one from within that wants to replace you. (It's a little while off though)

m.r.m.

Sorry missed it (the possible joke ). In my defence I just got back from Lollapalooza!

RichN95.

M.R.M. wrote:

Sorry missed it (the possible joke ). In my defence I just got back from Lollapalooza!

It wasn't a joke. Tour team leader at Sky is the Iron Throne of cycling. A position anyone of ambition would want.

In a few years I can see Froome riding like Contador has done recently. Maybe at a different team.

m.r.m.

"Be careful not to choke on your aspirations director Bernal!"

blazing_saddles

Edit. Maybe not.

inseine

M.R.M. wrote:

Froome's challengers in the future:

1. Parcours
2. Parcours
3. Time
4. Dumoulin
5. Porte
6. Quintana

Would love to see him seriously try LBL and Lombardia.

So, what is an anti Froome parcours? He really doesn't seem to have any real weakness.

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Possibly. Think Froome will have probably retired by the time he isn't in Sky anymore. Think they signed him already, didn't they?

The challenger that is hardest to get rid of is the one from within that wants to replace you. (It's a little while off though)

Yup. It's the guy that grew up watching you.

m.r.m.

inseine wrote:

So, what is an anti Froome parcours? He really doesn't seem to have any real weakness.

1. Super short ITT
2. Many stages of short and very steep inclines
3. Possibly medium length TTT (which would slightly favour BMC, Orica and QS traditionally. Possibly Sunweb now as well)

RichN95.

M.R.M. wrote:

inseine wrote:

So, what is an anti Froome parcours? He really doesn't seem to have any real weakness.

1. Super short ITT
2. Many stages of short and very steep inclines
3. Possibly medium length TTT (which would slightly favour BMC, Orica and QS traditionally. Possibly Sunweb now as well)

I'd say with Dumoulin in play a 2012 style course with over 100km of ITT might be anti-Froome.

rick_chasey

He's not that much faster than Froome in a TT is he?

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

He's not that much faster than Froome in a TT is he?

I don't know. But I think that's best chance of him losing right now.

inseine

M.R.M. wrote:

inseine wrote:

So, what is an anti Froome parcours? He really doesn't seem to have any real weakness.

1. Super short ITT
2. Many stages of short and very steep inclines
3. Possibly medium length TTT (which would slightly favour BMC, Orica and QS traditionally. Possibly Sunweb now as well)

1. Not much time difference in super short TT and whoever could beat him would probably be less good in the mountains.
2. This years Vuelta shows he can train to be good on the steep stuff (like the Angliru).
3. Possibly the TTT, but I doubt it would be 1 minute.

m.r.m.

The point of 1. is limiting the damage he can do to Chaves, Porte, Quintana, M.A. Lopez etc. in that ITT compared to longer ITT's.

It's hardly the easy route to beating him. Such a thing does not exist, but I think it's the only thing that might work. Dumoulin isn't that much better at time trials to guarantee he will take a minute plus out of Froome on a 100 km time trial. I would expect Froome to take out a minute plus overall on the climbs on Dumoulin.

Froome did look somewhat vulnerable on some steep climbs, so if he doesn't have a medium length or long ITT to fall back on, he could be beaten (possibly not probably).

Lanterne_Rogue

inseine wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Froome's challengers in the future:

1. Parcours
2. Parcours
3. Time
4. Dumoulin
5. Porte
6. Quintana

Would love to see him seriously try LBL and Lombardia.

So, what is an anti Froome parcours? He really doesn't seem to have any real weakness.

Have the whole of the first week somewhere cold and wet. For a bottle of wine I'll let the Tour know my summer holiday plans - that ought to do it.

RichN95.

underlayunderlay wrote:

inseine wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Froome's challengers in the future:

1. Parcours
2. Parcours
3. Time
4. Dumoulin
5. Porte
6. Quintana

Would love to see him seriously try LBL and Lombardia.

So, what is an anti Froome parcours? He really doesn't seem to have any real weakness.

Have the whole of the first week somewhere cold and wet. For a bottle of wine I'll let the Tour know my summer holiday plans - that ought to do it.

They tried that in 2015. He was in the yellow jersey before they got to a mountain.

yourpaceormine

No tA Doctor wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

yourpaceormine wrote:

And, no, before anyone asks there wasn't a Morecambe College/Polytechnic/uni, there was so little rented accommodation in Lancaster that virtually all2nd years lived in holiday flats in Morecambe. It was utter pants.)

Lots more student accommodation in Lancaster now - and more being built. Latest is on Bulk Road near the old Kingsway baths. There's a Facebook group, "Lancaster Past and Present" full of people moaning about the city being turned into student accommodation.

As for Jim Bowen, IIRC one of my mates in sixth form went out with his daughter.

He owned the old railway station on the Carnforth to Kirby Lonsdale road somewhere past the inn at Redwall. IIRC he co-owned that inn back when it was a cool place to go (played live music and jazz which Bowen was a jazz trumpeter in the day). Sold up and moved away long ago now.

You must have be in the area a good 20 years back to see JB in a supermarket unless I'm mistaken. IIRC Tesco wasn't around then with it only moving into the area at Carnforth when they bought the existing Safeways store when Morrisons took it over. They've since put in a Tesco metro in Morecambe.

JB was reportedly nice guy... Most of the time!

From being there in the early 90s, anyone living in Morecambe was doing it wrong.

PS - I'd kill for a pint in the Golden Lion right now.

I lived in Morecambe the academic year 87/88 I think. All a bit of a haze. The Tesco was a tiny little store, very unlike the sprawling temples of consumerism that they have become. Tesco Metro is very upmarket to the Tesco of old. Frontier Land, the Battery all gone/boarded up. Visited a few years back, and was very pleased to see that the building I lived in had been condemned and flattened. The house was split into holiday lets, everything ran off coin meters. Even a shower cost top. Thankfully no seal on the meter so we took the box off and used the same coin to clock up lots of credit. Landlady had the building rewired over the Christmas break, the electricians rewired one meter up wrong so it was clocking up credit. We were all very warm that winter, lots of fan heaters on very long extension leads running from the flat with the dodgy meter.

Weekend fun involved not getting the proverbial kicked out of you by the workers from Heysham nuke power station.

Lancaster Uni never put any of that in the prospectus.

I'm absolutely positive that the Morrisey song "Everyday is Like Sunday" was penned about Morecambe.

RonB

I'm getting a bit lost now.

Is the concensus that we need to book a holiday in Morecambe, for Morecambe to have the confidence to bid successfully for the Grand Depart some time very soon and that the (guaranteed?) bad weather will be Froome's undoing?

mididoctors

he has coped with everything... bad weather varying parcours. changing up the tactics.

he loses when he gets beaten. it happens.

he will fade and become increasingly reliant on experience and team support. but you know the difference between being in front and getting dropped is a small one.

could be thats the last gt he ever wins... which he did really well. fine champion.

is he going to do the giro?

Bo Duke

I can't believe folks are seriously discussing planning a course to knobble the best rider in the world? It kinda suggests how much people fear Froome (no breaking news there) and the other teams must be shite (no breaking news there).

But to knobble Froome simply to let someone else win.. come on guys, let's not switch the corruption of doping to the corruption of rigging the course.....

yourpaceormine

RonB wrote:

I'm getting a bit lost now.

Is the concensus that we need to book a holiday in Morecambe, for Morecambe to have the confidence to bid successfully for the Grand Depart some time very soon and that the (guaranteed?) bad weather will be Froome's undoing?

No. Morecambe, whilst it does have many things that ASO would require, it can't get past the fact that the town is ruddy woeful. It does have acres of desolate wasteland which the Tour organisation would require for broadcasters etc. Think the riders' union would stage a protest as a result of having to stay in what can only be euphemistically called "guest houses". Although you could build an excellent parcours in the surrounding areas. Might struggle to put a whole 3 week tour in without covering the same roads more than once. Oh, and the town is probably skint, so couldn't stump up the dish that ASO/RCS require.

As Jim Bowen would say "super, smashing, great"

Lanterne_Rogue

Bo Duke wrote:

I can't believe folks are seriously discussing planning a course to knobble the best rider in the world? It kinda suggests how much people fear Froome (no breaking news there) and the other teams must be shite (no breaking news there).

But to knobble Froome simply to let someone else win.. come on guys, let's not switch the corruption of doping to the corruption of rigging the course.....

I don't think anyone's campaigning for it to be done, just musing over where his weaknesses might be compared to his rivals.

ocdupalais

All this talk of his domination ... yet to me his lead always feels so fragile (see his time loss the day after the Vuelta ITT: him cracking up that steep finish at the Tour). I don't think I've ever felt like it was game over once he gets the yellow/red jersey; it's just that history seems to suggest that's the case.
Armstrong was usually about 5 mins ahead of second (usually Ullrich), 10 mins ahead of 3rd...similar with Indurain.

rick_chasey

OCDuPalais wrote:

All this talk of his domination ... yet to me his lead always feels so fragile (see his time loss the day after the Vuelta ITT: him cracking up that steep finish at the Tour). I don't think I've ever felt like it was game over once he gets the yellow/red jersey; it's just that history seems to suggest that's the case.
Armstrong was usually about 5 mins ahead of second (usually Ullrich), 10 mins ahead of 3rd...similar with Indurain.

Yes, the thought did cross my mind.

But all the margins are smaller nowadays.

I mean, take the final '96 Tour TT as I happened to be looking at that this morning.

stage 20, a 63km TT; not all that unusual then: this is the top 4:

1 Jan Ullrich (GER) Team Telekom 1h 15' 31"
2 Miguel Indurain (ESP) Banesto + 56"
3 Abraham Olano (ESP) Mapei–GB + 2' 06"
4 Bjarne Riis (DEN) A yellow jersey. Team Telekom + 2' 18"

Can you imagine those time gaps in a TT nowadays?

Here are the big stage in '97.

In '97, stage 10 to Arcalas, this was the top 5

1 Jan Ullrich (GER) A yellow jersey. Team Telekom 7h 46' 06"
2 Marco Pantani (ITA) Mercatone Uno + 1' 08"
3 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina–Lotus s.t.
4 Francesco Casagrande (ITA) Saeco + 2' 01"
5 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Team Telekom + 3' 23"

three and a half minutes for the top 5!! It's not even that steep.

Stage 12 TT:
1 Jan Ullrich (GER) A yellow jersey. Team Telekom 1h 16' 24"
2 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina–Lotus + 3' 04"
3 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Team Telekom + 3' 08"
4 Abraham Olano (ESP) Banesto + 3' 14"
5 Marco Pantani (ITA) Mercatone Uno + 3' 42"

(btw, notice how the 'pure climbers' are smashing top 5s in TTs...) again, 3 minutes.

Alp DHuez
1 Marco Pantani (ITA) Mercatone Uno 5h 02' 42"
2 Jan Ullrich (GER) A yellow jersey. Team Telekom + 47"
3 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina–Lotus + 1' 27"
4 Francesco Casagrande (ITA) Saeco + 2' 27"
5 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Team Telekom + 2' 28"

All huge time gaps by today's standards.

And that's not hugely unusual.

2005 Tour
First stage, 19km; Armstrong is already sticking a minute into everyone, over 19km...!

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Yellow jersey Green jersey Team CSC 20' 51"
2 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel + 2"
3 Alexander Vinokourov (KAZ) T-Mobile Team + 53"
4 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel + 57"
5 László Bodrogi (HUN) Crédit Agricole + 59"
6 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak + 1' 02"
7 Fabian Cancellara (SUI) White jersey Fassa Bortolo s.t.
8 Jens Voigt (GER) Team CSC + 1' 04"
9 Vladimir Karpets (RUS) Illes Balears + 1' 05"
10 Igor González de Galdeano (ESP) Liberty Seguros-Würth + 1' 06"


You keep going and you see Armstrong easily sticking in 20-30 seconds into his nearest rival on any mountain stage.

Also, I think the routes are designed to keep the GC close in a way they weren't 10-20 years ago.

tangled_metal

yourpaceormine wrote:

RonB wrote:

I'm getting a bit lost now.

Is the concensus that we need to book a holiday in Morecambe, for Morecambe to have the confidence to bid successfully for the Grand Depart some time very soon and that the (guaranteed?) bad weather will be Froome's undoing?

No. Morecambe, whilst it does have many things that ASO would require, it can't get past the fact that the town is ruddy woeful. It does have acres of desolate wasteland which the Tour organisation would require for broadcasters etc. Think the riders' union would stage a protest as a result of having to stay in what can only be euphemistically called "guest houses". Although you could build an excellent parcours in the surrounding areas. Might struggle to put a whole 3 week tour in without covering the same roads more than once. Oh, and the town is probably skint, so couldn't stump up the dish that ASO/RCS require.

As Jim Bowen would say "super, smashing, great"

Guest houses? West end is or was during the great influx little Poland. If not that then DSS hostels. Ten or fifteen years ago I could have bought a whole street of houses for £50k! Would have needed specialists cleaners to deal with the sharps left by the inhabitants but once cleaned up I could have cleaned up on the rent to the Polish. At least for a few years before they brought families over and moved to better areas once firmly settled.

Were you at Morecambe when Blobbygate happened?

If they ever did a grand depart from Morecambe I'd seriously love to see The riders reactions on seeing the town. If you're serious about knobbling Froome then put a Rangers shirt on him one Saturday before the TDF and sit him in the Palatine pub on derby match day. A Celtics pub all spit and sawdust too.

BTW I would never want to nobble Froome. I think he's one of the best GT riders around and I enjoy seeing him race and the whole performance of his team. I think he gets too much criticism compared to other top riders and same goes with Sky. Time to give him and Sky a break after 5GT wins for Froome plus another one for Wiggins and sky. They've done well over the years and no doubt worked hard to achieve success too.

Lookyhere

OCDuPalais wrote:

All this talk of his domination ... yet to me his lead always feels so fragile (see his time loss the day after the Vuelta ITT: him cracking up that steep finish at the Tour). I don't think I've ever felt like it was game over once he gets the yellow/red jersey; it's just that history seems to suggest that's the case.
Armstrong was usually about 5 mins ahead of second (usually Ullrich), 10 mins ahead of 3rd...similar with Indurain.

Doping was the difference, the Sport is much cleaner now, it s more about the team/rider combination than ever before, harder to get ahead, equally harder to make up time.

It's all relative but the question shouldnt be How good is Chris Froome but How good is Team SKY?

Also, the comment that LA put almost a min into his rivals over 19km, Froome put 35sec over 14km into Porte.

okgo

Aside from keeping the pace steady I still think the 'team' thing is overdone. There is almost no drafting benefit up Angliru for example, especially not just one rider. They have proved their worth many times, but I think people think that being 2nd or 3rd wheel up a climb is some sort of magic carpet ride. It is not.

ocdupalais

Rick Chasey wrote:

I mean, take the final '96 Tour TT as I happened to be looking at that this morning.

stage 20, a 63km TT; not all that unusual then: this is the top 4:

1 Jan Ullrich (GER) Team Telekom 1h 15' 31"
2 Miguel Indurain (ESP) Banesto + 56"
3 Abraham Olano (ESP) Mapei–GB + 2' 06"
4 Bjarne Riis (DEN) A yellow jersey. Team Telekom + 2' 18"

Can you imagine those time gaps in a TT nowadays?

Here are the big stage in '97.

In '97, stage 10 to Arcalas, this was the top 5

1 Jan Ullrich (GER) A yellow jersey. Team Telekom 7h 46' 06"
2 Marco Pantani (ITA) Mercatone Uno + 1' 08"
3 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina–Lotus s.t.
4 Francesco Casagrande (ITA) Saeco + 2' 01"
5 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Team Telekom + 3' 23"

three and a half minutes for the top 5!! It's not even that steep.

Stage 12 TT:
1 Jan Ullrich (GER) A yellow jersey. Team Telekom 1h 16' 24"
2 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina–Lotus + 3' 04"
3 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Team Telekom + 3' 08"
4 Abraham Olano (ESP) Banesto + 3' 14"
5 Marco Pantani (ITA) Mercatone Uno + 3' 42"

Ah... Ullrich circa 96/97: I'd put him up against any rider in history.
Richard Virenque: 2nd in a TT. Hahahahah... and would be even funnier if people weren't so lazy and equated him riding like that with Froome now as proof of the latter's doping. "Skinny climber suddenly able to TT!?! - I think not!!"

okgo

That does seem to be the crux of many of the twitter trolls arguments. OR motors because someone accelerated when they pushed the pedals.