How good is Chris Froome?

pblakeney

Froome is supported by the best squad, by far. Coincidence? I doubt it.
Not to say he couldn't win if he swapped places with Quintana, but it would definitely change the odds.

milton50

Rick Chasey wrote:

Were you ever convinced Porte had it in him to beat Froome? Genuine question.

I wasn't, particularly.

I think Porte would have pushed Froome very, very close this year given that we know Froome wasn't all in for the Tour as he has been in previous seasons.

My take is that Porte and Froome are at a similar level in terms of climbing and TT skills in isolation. Where Froome has the edge is in recovering better and mental strength.

Bo Duke

Question: Quintana sucked Froome's rear wheel all race effectively using Sky. If Froome was Movistar sucking Quintana's Sky wheels all race, who would have won the race? I say Froome because regardless of team Sky working for Quintana in that scenario, Froome still would have beaten him.

bobmcstuff

Bo Duke wrote:

Question: Quintana sucked Froome's rear wheel all race effectively using Sky. If Froome was Movistar sucking Quintana's Sky wheels all race, who would have won the race? I say Froome because regardless of team Sky working for Quintana in that scenario, Froome still would have beaten him.

I'm not sure that's an easy question to answer. Froome's a relatively fast finisher so I think they would be unwilling to tow him to the line with Quintana, so the whole race would look different.

DeVlaeminck

Re. Porte I agree at his best he can TT and climb well but his best GC finish in 8 years riding them is 5th and he will be 33 by the time the next grand tour comes round.

DeVlaeminck

Rick Chasey wrote:

That's kinda my point.

It's now about how great the team is. Movistar could turn up with a full strength great team and I don't think they'd be able to do much since there isn't a rider around who's at Froome's level. I.e. no other A lister.

The success of Froome is not a function of how good sky are, however good they are.

That sky have the best rider and a lot of the best domestiques is no surprise given the budget, but it's not because Sky are some master tacticians per se. It's because Froome's the best by a long way.

If Froome moved to Movistar tomorrow he'd still be the massive favourite for the Tour, and he probably would win.

Even now? I think he's showing signs of just being past his best - still on top but not enough to be a massive favourite if he didn't have the best team. We've seen him have a couple of bad days in grand tours this year, I'm not saying his team saved him because I think he had enough of a cushion but it'd have been more interesting had he been isolated and his opponents had had a couple of domestiques pulling things on.

If his main opponents have been Nibali, Contador and Quintana are any of those at their best this year ? I know it's hard to judge as it's always relative to the opposition but my feeling is not. Had they been I think perhaps they would have beaten him, at his absolute peak I'm not sure they would have without something else going their way, maybe a pre ban Contador would have.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

]

Even now? I think he's showing signs of just being past his best - still on top but not enough to be a massive favourite if he didn't have the best team. We've seen him have a couple of bad days in grand tours this year, I'm not saying his team saved him because I think he had enough of a cushion but it'd have been more interesting had he been isolated and his opponents had had a couple of domestiques pulling things on.

If his main opponents have been Nibali, Contador and Quintana are any of those at their best this year ? I know it's hard to judge as it's always relative to the opposition but my feeling is not. Had they been I think perhaps they would have beaten him, at his absolute peak I'm not sure they would have without something else going their way, maybe a pre ban Contador would have.

Isn't that my original point?

timothyw

Milton50 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Were you ever convinced Porte had it in him to beat Froome? Genuine question.

I wasn't, particularly.

I think Porte would have pushed Froome very, very close this year given that we know Froome wasn't all in for the Tour as he has been in previous seasons.

My take is that Porte and Froome are at a similar level in terms of climbing and TT skills in isolation. Where Froome has the edge is in recovering better and mental strength.

Porte might have pushed him very close or even won on wattbikes or zwift, but the fact was he overcooked it on a descent and crashed, while in some of the best form of his life.

Form doesn't matter though, if you can't keep rubber side down.

If he'd been taken out by a camera bike you might have more of a point.

Nibali doesn't get nearly enough props for the 2014 tour IMO. It isn't his fault that his rivals couldn't stay on their bikes, he put minutes into those who were still around for him to beat.

mrfpb

Anyone mentioned the potential treble of 2 GTs and a World title - so far only acheived by Steven Roche and Eddy Merckx

pblakeney

Bo Duke wrote:

Question: Quintana sucked Froome's rear wheel all race effectively using Sky. If Froome was Movistar sucking Quintana's Sky wheels all race, who would have won the race? I say Froome because regardless of team Sky working for Quintana in that scenario, Froome still would have beaten him.

Froome likes a steadily increasing pace. Sky with Quintana would probably have varied the pace to change the rhythm.

RichN95.

PBlakeney wrote:

Bo Duke wrote:

Question: Quintana sucked Froome's rear wheel all race effectively using Sky. If Froome was Movistar sucking Quintana's Sky wheels all race, who would have won the race? I say Froome because regardless of team Sky working for Quintana in that scenario, Froome still would have beaten him.

Froome likes a steadily increasing pace. Sky with Quintana would probably have varied the pace to change the rhythm.

Quintana likes a steady pace himself. He's a bit of a diesel engine really.

rick_chasey

mrfpb wrote:

Anyone mentioned the potential treble of 2 GTs and a World title - so far only acheived by Steven Roche and Eddy Merckx

I've not seen anything from Froome in a one day race to suggest he is a candidate for a monument or Worlds RR victory.

Dorset_Boy

Worlds TT might suit him this year with the climb at the end?

salsiccia1

Dorset Boy wrote:

Worlds TT might suit him this year with the climb at the end?

A World TT is big, but it's not the RR. It'd be a triple of sorts but not the Triple Crown.

RichN95.

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

Worlds TT might suit him this year with the climb at the end?

A World TT is big, but it's not the RR. It'd be a triple of sorts but not the Triple Crown.

The problem with the 'Triple Crown' is that now the Giro and Worlds are a lot further apart.

The dates of the first day of Giro and WRR

1974: 16 May - 25 August
1987: 21 May - 6 September
2017: 5 May - 24 September

rick_chasey

Aye - Worlds used to be a week or two after the Tour, no?

salsiccia1

RichN95 wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

Worlds TT might suit him this year with the climb at the end?

A World TT is big, but it's not the RR. It'd be a triple of sorts but not the Triple Crown.

The problem with the 'Triple Crown' is that now the Giro and Worlds are a lot further apart.

The dates of the first day of Giro and WRR

1974: 16 May - 25 August
1987: 21 May - 6 September
2017: 5 May - 24 September

Interesting. It clearly makes a Tour/Vuelta/WRR triple more achievable, but would it rank the same as a Giro/Tour/WRR triple?

It's all moot though, as it's now so unlikely to be done.

milton50

DeVlaeminck wrote:

and he will be 33 by the time the next grand tour comes round.

Fair point. Hadn't quite realised how far past 30 he is.

DeVlaeminck

Rick Chasey wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

]

Even now? I think he's showing signs of just being past his best - still on top but not enough to be a massive favourite if he didn't have the best team. We've seen him have a couple of bad days in grand tours this year, I'm not saying his team saved him because I think he had enough of a cushion but it'd have been more interesting had he been isolated and his opponents had had a couple of domestiques pulling things on.

If his main opponents have been Nibali, Contador and Quintana are any of those at their best this year ? I know it's hard to judge as it's always relative to the opposition but my feeling is not. Had they been I think perhaps they would have beaten him, at his absolute peak I'm not sure they would have without something else going their way, maybe a pre ban Contador would have.

Isn't that my original point?

I don't know was it, I was responding to your post I quoted you may have made a different point previously.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

]

Even now? I think he's showing signs of just being past his best - still on top but not enough to be a massive favourite if he didn't have the best team. We've seen him have a couple of bad days in grand tours this year, I'm not saying his team saved him because I think he had enough of a cushion but it'd have been more interesting had he been isolated and his opponents had had a couple of domestiques pulling things on.

If his main opponents have been Nibali, Contador and Quintana are any of those at their best this year ? I know it's hard to judge as it's always relative to the opposition but my feeling is not. Had they been I think perhaps they would have beaten him, at his absolute peak I'm not sure they would have without something else going their way, maybe a pre ban Contador would have.

Isn't that my original point?

I don't know was it, I was responding to your post I quoted you may have made a different point previously.

That ya kinda feel Froome's not got real A list competition.

fat daddy

So what we are saying is Froome is only winning because there is no one as good as him ???

the answer to "How good is Chris Froome" is in fact - Not that good because there is no one better than him to beat him.

I like the reasoning. By the Same reasoning, its a real shame that Bertie quit when he was at the top of his game. he was by far the best rider and the only reason he wasn't winning more was because everyone else was as good as him

bonk_king

I think it's the guys he's got around him that are making everybody else look like 'b' listers. I think froome is good, and i think he's clean. How good he'd be with just good domestiques as opposed to exceptional domestiques like he has, who knows. He might want to add the giro to his list but it's the tour he loves most. I think he'll plan the next couple of years very carefully so he has the best chance of winning his 5th and 6th titles.

RichN95.

Froome's most regular rivals have been:

Contador: 7 GT wins, 7 podiums
Nibali: 4 GT wins, 10 podiums
Quintana: 2 GT wins, 6 podiums
Wiggins: 1 GT win, 3 podiums

OK, the last one is a little joke, but he's prevented Froome winning more GTs than Quintana has. The other three on the other hand are clearly top class riders. 13 GTs between them.

phil485

I don't have the data to hand but would strike rate not be an interesting stat??
Of those 4 and grooms quoted above, what are the percentages of grand tours entered as team leader that they have won???

No_Ta_Doctor

Tangled Metal wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

yourpaceormine wrote:

And, no, before anyone asks there wasn't a Morecambe College/Polytechnic/uni, there was so little rented accommodation in Lancaster that virtually all2nd years lived in holiday flats in Morecambe. It was utter pants.)

Lots more student accommodation in Lancaster now - and more being built. Latest is on Bulk Road near the old Kingsway baths. There's a Facebook group, "Lancaster Past and Present" full of people moaning about the city being turned into student accommodation.

As for Jim Bowen, IIRC one of my mates in sixth form went out with his daughter.

He owned the old railway station on the Carnforth to Kirby Lonsdale road somewhere past the inn at Redwall. IIRC he co-owned that inn back when it was a cool place to go (played live music and jazz which Bowen was a jazz trumpeter in the day). Sold up and moved away long ago now.

You must have be in the area a good 20 years back to see JB in a supermarket unless I'm mistaken. IIRC Tesco wasn't around then with it only moving into the area at Carnforth when they bought the existing Safeways store when Morrisons took it over. They've since put in a Tesco metro in Morecambe.

JB was reportedly nice guy... Most of the time!

From being there in the early 90s, anyone living in Morecambe was doing it wrong.

PS - I'd kill for a pint in the Golden Lion right now.

inseine

RichN95 wrote:

Froome's most regular rivals have been:

Contador: 7 GT wins, 7 podiums
Nibali: 4 GT wins, 10 podiums
Quintana: 2 GT wins, 6 podiums
Wiggins: 1 GT win, 3 podiums

OK, the last one is a little joke, but he's prevented Froome winning more GTs than Quintana has. The other three on the other hand are clearly top class riders. 13 GTs between them.

So if Froome wins 2 GTs next year you could say he's moved ahead of Contador with 7 GT wins and 11 podiums.

No_Ta_Doctor

OK.

There are only 10 riders who have won as many GTs as Froome. The others in the list are all acknowledged as legends of the sport. 3 of those 10 have the same number of GTs as Froome, none of them have won as many TdFs (though Bartali would surely have won more but for Mussolini and the war).

In all likelihood, Froome will add at least one more GT to his tally.

I think the answer has to be "very, very good".

PS - as for A-Listers, Nibali has been convincingly beaten on several occasions and he's one of just 13 riders to have won 4 or more GTs.

RichN95.

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Froome's most regular rivals have been:

Contador: 7 GT wins, 7 podiums
Nibali: 4 GT wins, 10 podiums
Quintana: 2 GT wins, 6 podiums
Wiggins: 1 GT win, 3 podiums

OK, the last one is a little joke, but he's prevented Froome winning more GTs than Quintana has. The other three on the other hand are clearly top class riders. 13 GTs between them.

So if Froome wins 2 GTs next year you could say he's moved ahead of Contador with 7 GT wins and 11 podiums.

Yes. If...

m.r.m.

Froome's challengers in the future:

1. Parcours
2. Parcours
3. Time
4. Dumoulin
5. Porte
6. Quintana

Would love to see him seriously try LBL and Lombardia.

RichN95.

M.R.M. wrote:

Froome's challengers in the future:

1. Parcours
2. Parcours
3. Time
4. Dumoulin
5. Porte
6. Quintana

Would love to see him seriously try LBL AND Lombardia.

7. Egan Bernal