How good is Chris Froome?

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  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    I think a lot of the problem with Froome's rivals, especially in the TdF, is that their teams are not as single-minded as Sky are about winning that race. Too many of them either try and target the Giro/Tour or they have effectively multiple team leaders instead of getting behind one.

    I think it could be different next year if Dumoulin, Quintana and Porte all had outright team leader status with the team pushing for them from Stage 1. They also need the right blend of riders to support the team leader in various scenarios based on the parcours like Sky.
  • Bo Duke
    Bo Duke Posts: 1,058
    This year Froomie beat.... Nibs, Aru, Quintana, Berti, Dan Martin, Uran..... every team leader in 6 weeks of GT's including some who crashed out trying to compete.

    31 riders abandoned the TdF.
    37 riders abandoned the VE, incl Warren Barguil, Rohan Dennis, Carlos Betancur and David de la Cruz.

    68 riders withdrew.. SKY by comparison didn't lose a single rider in either the TdF or VE, apart from Gee in that police bike crash.

    Some teams broke up and couldn't decide who was team leader Aru/Lopez, others were sent home for not supporting the team leader (Warren Barguil), Ag2r La Mondiale sent two riders home for holding onto the freakin' roof rack......

    The relentless pace of the Sky train and Froome's ability to ride off the front in the final kms of every stage, week after week, is a silent killer destroying the discipline of the other teams and sapping their belief they can win. Quintana can't hack it, neither can Aru, they're beaten men. Bring on Lopez, Chavez, Landa and Tom next season...

    Bring on a team that's prepared to demonstrate the same discipline as Sky. There're now enough ex-Sky riders out there to teach the main teams how Sky work, prepare and plan races.

    Lets not call Froome boring, he's the complete opposite, a superb leader and as determined to win as the Badger himself. Lets place greater demands on the other teams to beef up their expectations and start to challenge.

    All rise.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    hypster wrote:
    I think a lot of the problem with Froome's rivals, especially in the TdF, is that their teams are not as single-minded as Sky are about winning that race. .

    Really?

    So what about AG2R and BMC, as a starter?
    _
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Maybe it's just because Chris is so good he makes everyone else look like B listers, but I never really remember seeing Chris really tested and coming out on top.

    I'm inclined to agree with this. Combined with the team they consistently bring to their targeted races as well.

    Both the Tour and Vuelta would have been wide open, had Froome crashed out for example. Shows that there's a decent number of riders on the next rung down.
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    I think a lot of the problem with Froome's rivals, especially in the TdF, is that their teams are not as single-minded as Sky are about winning that race. .

    Really?

    So what about AG2R and BMC, as a starter?

    Bardet is never going to be in the class of Froome/Contador/Nibali i.e. a potential GT winner who can boss the race. He can't time trial for toffee so I would be amazed if he ever wins a GT. BMC are still divided between Porte and TVG. They need to get solely behind Porte, ditch the loser and then they might stand a chance.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    /\ TJVG has done a couple of good turns as a domestique this year, can't help thinking he'd be better off long term getting on board with that.

    Must be really demoralising to fail at GC riding so frequently...
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    hypster wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    I think a lot of the problem with Froome's rivals, especially in the TdF, is that their teams are not as single-minded as Sky are about winning that race. .

    Really?

    So what about AG2R and BMC, as a starter?

    Bardet is never going to be in the class of Froome/Contador/Nibali i.e. a potential GT winner who can boss the race. He can't time trial for toffee so I would be amazed if he ever wins a GT. BMC are still divided between Porte and TVG. They need to get solely behind Porte, ditch the loser and then they might stand a chance.

    BMC were not divided this Tour were they?

    And your point about AG2R is entirely my point.

    Him and Uran on the podium?
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    I think a lot of the problem with Froome's rivals, especially in the TdF, is that their teams are not as single-minded as Sky are about winning that race. .

    Really?

    So what about AG2R and BMC, as a starter?

    Bardet is never going to be in the class of Froome/Contador/Nibali i.e. a potential GT winner who can boss the race. He can't time trial for toffee so I would be amazed if he ever wins a GT. BMC are still divided between Porte and TVG. They need to get solely behind Porte, ditch the loser and then they might stand a chance.

    BMC were not divided this Tour were they?
    For the first time though. And then Porte was divided from his bike on the downhill. BMC can do it - they did it for Evans.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Were you ever convinced Porte had it in him to beat Froome? Genuine question.

    I wasn't, particularly.
    _
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    I think a lot of the problem with Froome's rivals, especially in the TdF, is that their teams are not as single-minded as Sky are about winning that race. .

    Really?

    So what about AG2R and BMC, as a starter?

    Bardet is never going to be in the class of Froome/Contador/Nibali i.e. a potential GT winner who can boss the race. He can't time trial for toffee so I would be amazed if he ever wins a GT. BMC are still divided between Porte and TVG. They need to get solely behind Porte, ditch the loser and then they might stand a chance.

    BMC were not divided this Tour were they?

    And your point about AG2R is entirely my point.

    Him and Uran on the podium?

    I might be wrong but I never saw TVG pulling LRP up any of the climbs. What I'm talking about is a mindset in the whole team where every member is there to work solely for the leader in every circumstance. How many times do we see Sky get to the bottom of the final climb with 4 or 5 riders still there to support Froome?

    Then what happens is they do their bit and fall away but he very often has at least one with him in the final kilometres to help. How often do you see other team leaders come over the line with another teammate like on the Angliru? (Nibali excepted :D )

    You tend to see that quite regularly with Sky because the whole team is designed with one thing in mind, to put Froome over the line in the shortest possible time.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Look, I appreciate you've bought the kool aid and therefore want to drink it, but any team that had Froome in would do exactly the same thing, let alone any team with SKy's budget AND Froome.

    Genuinely, if it was just about throwing all your aces into the Tour, why d'ya think others don't bother?
    _
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Were you ever convinced Porte had it in him to beat Froome? Genuine question.

    I wasn't, particularly.

    As Porte can climb and TT I would say given a half-decent team effort and an incident-free race he is almost certainly the biggest threat to Froome winning a 5th TdF.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Were you ever convinced Porte had it in him to beat Froome? Genuine question.

    I wasn't, particularly.
    I don't know really. I thought he was going to be the best he'd ever been. And he can actually beat Froome in TTs
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Look, I appreciate you've bought the kool aid and therefore want to drink it, but any team that had Froome in would do exactly the same thing, let alone any team with SKy's budget AND Froome.

    Genuinely, if it was just about throwing all your aces into the Tour, why d'ya think others don't bother?

    Yes, obviously I am a big Sky/Froome fan but that is not we are discussing here is it? I'm actually talking about how other teams can potentially beat him. They need to be as focussed as Sky and I believe teams like BMC and Movistar have the manpower to do it.

    Your last sentance is just laughable really, why would they even turn up if they thought that? I think Richie Porte wholeheartedly believes he can beat Froome and win the TdF. No-one is better place than him to understand the workings of Sky.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    I wonder what the stats are on successes of former domestiques beating their former leaders... Not for this thread I suspect.
    _
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    Look at Wout Poels and Porte, both capable of Staying with Froome everywhere but both possibly don't have the minerals to head up a team as in portes case he crashes and Poels case he probably can't TT as well...
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    /\ TJVG has done a couple of good turns as a domestique this year, can't help thinking he'd be better off long term getting on board with that.

    Must be really demoralising to fail at GC riding so frequently...
    Isn't there a rumour of him going to SKY?
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    hypster wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Look, I appreciate you've bought the kool aid and therefore want to drink it, but any team that had Froome in would do exactly the same thing, let alone any team with SKy's budget AND Froome.

    Genuinely, if it was just about throwing all your aces into the Tour, why d'ya think others don't bother?

    Yes, obviously I am a big Sky/Froome fan but that is not we are discussing here is it? I'm actually talking about how other teams can potentially beat him. They need to be as focussed as Sky and I believe teams like BMC and Movistar have the manpower to do it.

    Your last sentance is just laughable really, why would they even turn up if they thought that? I think Richie Porte wholeheartedly believes he can beat Froome and win the TdF. No-one is better place than him to understand the workings of Sky.

    That's kinda my point.

    It's now about how great the team is. Movistar could turn up with a full strength great team and I don't think they'd be able to do much since there isn't a rider around who's at Froome's level. I.e. no other A lister.

    The success of Froome is not a function of how good sky are, however good they are.

    That sky have the best rider and a lot of the best domestiques is no surprise given the budget, but it's not because Sky are some master tacticians per se. It's because Froome's the best by a long way.

    If Froome moved to Movistar tomorrow he'd still be the massive favourite for the Tour, and he probably would win.
    _
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    hopkinb wrote:
    Mikel Landa next season? He can TT a bit now, did ok in the Giro TT last year.

    Yeah, looking forward to Landa stepping up and adding to the competition for GT.

    Great achievement to get the double and the elusive Vuelta.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_G ... on_winners
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Look, I appreciate you've bought the kool aid and therefore want to drink it, but any team that had Froome in would do exactly the same thing, let alone any team with SKy's budget AND Froome.

    Genuinely, if it was just about throwing all your aces into the Tour, why d'ya think others don't bother?

    Yes, obviously I am a big Sky/Froome fan but that is not we are discussing here is it? I'm actually talking about how other teams can potentially beat him. They need to be as focussed as Sky and I believe teams like BMC and Movistar have the manpower to do it.

    Your last sentance is just laughable really, why would they even turn up if they thought that? I think Richie Porte wholeheartedly believes he can beat Froome and win the TdF. No-one is better place than him to understand the workings of Sky.

    That's kinda my point.

    It's now about how great the team is. Movistar could turn up with a full strength great team and I don't think they'd be able to do much since there isn't a rider around who's at Froome's level. I.e. no other A lister.

    The success of Froome is not a function of how good sky are, however good they are.

    That sky have the best rider and a lot of the best domestiques is no surprise given the budget, but it's not because Sky are some master tacticians per se. It's because Froome's the best by a long way.

    If Froome moved to Movistar tomorrow he'd still be the massive favourite for the Tour, and he probably would win.

    Well, it seems you are not valuing anything a team does outside of what the riders do in the race. Which might be right, but everything that happens off the bike that the team do or control, the prep, training, the research, the recovery, the decision making, all this "marginal stuff" that's led by the team, you think all that counts for pretty much nothing then? Or, certainly not enough to be relevant? ...and that Sky bring no advantage here compared to other teams now?

    I'm not saying it does count, but it is arguable that it is there and that it has helped Froome compared to how things would be for him in another team?
  • silvergrenade
    silvergrenade Posts: 79
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    silvergrenade wrote:
    I'd like to see Froome in One Day classics tbh.
    He can potentially win/podium races like Fleche, Lombardia.


    On what evidence?
    Theres aplenty.
    His performances on muritos as well as improving tactical abilities.
    For more: http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/Christopher_Froome
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    That's kinda my point.

    It's now about how great the team is. Movistar could turn up with a full strength great team and I don't think they'd be able to do much since there isn't a rider around who's at Froome's level. I.e. no other A lister.

    The success of Froome is not a function of how good sky are, however good they are.

    That sky have the best rider and a lot of the best domestiques is no surprise given the budget, but it's not because Sky are some master tacticians per se. It's because Froome's the best by a long way.

    If Froome moved to Movistar tomorrow he'd still be the massive favourite for the Tour, and he probably would win.

    So how did Quintana manage to beat Froome in the Vuelta last year then? Quintana's problem is two-fold really. He hasn't had a focussed preparation for solely the TdF in the last couple of years and I don't believe that Valverde really is a team player.

    I'm not denying that Froome isn't the best rider around at the moment but I do believe he can be beaten given a focussed effort by other teams. A lot of people poo poo Sky's marginal gains approach but at the top level in any sport one or two percent can make all the difference between winning and losing.

    In reality most of the time we are only talking about seconds over a three week grand tour. That why Froome tries to get every second he can on every stage that matters or when the opportunity presents itself.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    How did Quintana beat Froome in the Vuelta?

    Because I recon that Vuelta was an afterthought for Froome, rather than an objective.

    My take is this year he deliberately targeted the double for the first time, rather than treating the Vuelta as a no-downside bonus race.

    And surely Quintana's avoidance of Froome is evidence that he doesn't necessarily think he can beat Chris when Chris puts his mind to it.
    _
  • mamil314
    mamil314 Posts: 1,103
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Were you ever convinced Porte had it in him to beat Froome? Genuine question.

    I wasn't, particularly.

    I believe Porte was strongest in this year's TdF - racing sense/team support/shenanigans aside. He knows Froome's engine very,very well and left the team genuinely believing he had a shot at beating him.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    And because Moviestar never listen when a stage is neutralized.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    Wasn't there talk of disagreements between BMC's DSes at the Tour?
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,557
    Is this from Bertie's biggest fan? (From the comments on the BBC site)
    "54. Posted by frenchie1971 on
    1 hour ago
    I would like to know how much of CF's life he has actually spent in Britain, he was born in Kenya, educated in South Africa and now lives in Monaco, what part of that makes him British. Having a British father does not make him British, what has he ever contributed and what is he contributing now? Nothing, he really doesn't deserve the admiration, sorry its just how I feel."
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    Dorset Boy wrote:
    Is this from Bertie's biggest fan? (From the comments on the BBC site)
    "54. Posted by frenchie1971 on
    1 hour ago
    I would like to know how much of CF's life he has actually spent in Britain, he was born in Kenya, educated in South Africa and now lives in Monaco, what part of that makes him British. Having a British father does not make him British, what has he ever contributed and what is he contributing now? Nothing, he really doesn't deserve the admiration, sorry its just how I feel."

    Lol. :roll:
    Correlation is not causation.
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    How did Quintana beat Froome in the Vuelta?

    Because I recon that Vuelta was an afterthought for Froome, rather than an objective.

    My take is this year he deliberately targeted the double for the first time, rather than treating the Vuelta as a no-downside bonus race.

    And surely Quintana's avoidance of Froome is evidence that he doesn't necessarily think he can beat Chris when Chris puts his mind to it.

    Froome was only 54 seconds down on Quintana after stage 14 in the Vuelta last year with an ITT to come on stage 19. Then the whole Sky team including Froome went to sleep on stage 15 and got mugged for 2 minutes 43 seconds by an early attack by Contador and Movistar on the first climb of a short stage. Froome took back 2 minutes 16 seconds from Quintana in the ITT to finish only 1:23 down on GC.

    I believe he and Sky were committed to winning that race and the way they lost it must have particularly stung which is why he deliberately targeted it this year. I can't imagine that finishing second 3 times prior to this year he was doing anything other than trying to win that race every year.

    Quintana may well be dodging Froome but this year is another case in point in how he and Movistar just don't have joined-up thinking. Everyone knows that the Giro/Tour double is very hard if not an impossibility so why was Quintana even in the TdF this year after failing to win the Giro? It would have more sense (especially given the parcours of the TdF and Vuelta) for him to ride the Giro/Vuelta.
  • Paulie W
    Paulie W Posts: 1,492
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Somehow with Chris you kinda feel he's only beating B listers.

    Appreciate it's a bit unfair on Nibz, but we all seemed to agree he won the Tour since all the big riders crashsed out.

    Also, not Chris' fault.

    But does anyone else get that vibe?

    No.

    So who's a genuine A lister then?

    Who, historically, counts as an A lister? In Mercyx's era, do GT riders like Zootemelk, Thevenet, Ocana make it on to the A list? Who of Indurain's opposition make it on to the A list?

    I ask because it would be good to know what are the parameters for this "list"? I think it would be hard to argue that Nibali and Contador are not historical A listers, although you could argue that they have never been at the top of their game when up against Froome (although personally I think this is a bit disingenuous). Whatever you think of Quintana he has won two grand tours and podiumed in several more and I think he stands up against Ocana and Thevenet for example (or indeed riders like Roche, Delgado, Rominger, Chiappuci) and will add to that number before he retires. So Froome has regularly triumphed over at least 3 riders who have multiple grand tour victories (and in the case of Quintana and probably Nibs who will add to that total).

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