How good is Chris Froome?

milemuncher1

hypster wrote:

What utter drivel! Sky are dominant at the moment because they have the best rider in the World and they have taken the single-minded approach to put together a team to back him to the hilt in their goal to win the TdF and now the Vuelta. Other teams struggle because their strategy is usually less focussed and they don't put the whole weight of the team behind one nominated leader.

The racing is only boring for you because your personal favourite is constantly getting hammered. For me pro cycling has never been as exciting since Sky came into being.

Very true. In some pro sports, there's a political / economic under current, which means certain entities are favoured, even if they aren't actually good enough to be 'the best' on merit. The current set up in pro cycling is much more transparent. The best riders are in the best team, on merit. Sure there is a degree of ' challenge Froome / Sky, and your cycling career may be slightly compromised in the long term' but there are also plenty of riders who don't care, so will have a go, and sod the consequences. Which makes it entertaining.

okgo

mamba80 wrote:

okgo wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

What about Anquetil? What was he like? Would he be the sort to achieve in a modern setting?

he certainly didnt believe in drinking only water.....

i would say Sean Kelly, whether he was on some drug regime is another matter, likely. But he had the right mental attitude to perform well in the modern era.

what is more interesting ref Froome, is would other members of SKY also win if they rode for say, Landa instead, i mean is froome an amzing cyclist or is he the one they all sacrifice themselves for, so he gets to the sharp end fresh.

Personally, i am always slightly skeptical when a cyclist who is exceptional in the mountains, can also be up there with the Tony Mrrtins etc in a flat TT.

the more Sky/froome win, the less i enjoy watching pro cycling, they ruin the sport.

You don't get much draft going up a hill, when his last man peels off he'll have been working very hard for the duration and then has to attack. He is the best rider they have, easily, for grand tours, hence they work for him. Landa looked quite strong in the TDF, but actually when given a chance to attack solo he got nowhere. And he has a penchant for losing stages by leading them out, not that bright.

I have never got why they're mutually exclusive. Most of the best GC men at the minute are big guys who've got super thin, Dumoulin, Froome, Wiggins even. They're all up around 70kg, but they have the engines. Personally I find it more odd when Contador or Porte smash everyone in a TT, they're tiny men, but perhaps these days the aero side of things has taken the small man being shoot at TT thing out of the question.

They clearly are not ruining the sport. What a stupid thing to say.

why is that? the only opinion that matters is yours?
in any sport, if a team dominates, its detracts from the spectacle, an obv example is F1, at times it has become a race for 3rd place, same in the TDF, we all know that barring an accident, SKY will dominate, year in and year out, we get threads on how boring the route is etc etc it doesnt matter, its SKY that makes it boring!!!

I ve always looked fwd to the Vuelta for this reason but now SKY have targeted this race also..... exciting routes... made boring..... but yes i should have said for me it ruins the sport, you have a different view and like boring predictable racing :oops:

re big guys who have become thinner... odd that isnt it, time wil out if this is genuine or not but yes Contador/Porte should nt be smashing TT's and rarely do either.

I thought schools had gone back, clearly not.

Porte and Contador both have done very strong TT in the past. Porte beat Froome in a TT earlier this year.

tangled_metal

davidof wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Was Pedro Delgado and Roche any good / clean? I first got into watching TDF in the year Delgado cracked on a MTF stage but somehow fought back to within a few seconds of IIRC Roche. Heroic effort I thought at the time. If he's a drug cheat when he did that it'll be disappointing for me.

Isn't it the other way round? Roche cracked on the la Plagne finish in 1987 and Delgado thought he'd won the tour but Roche fought back to trail in just a few seconds on Delgado? Roche was on oxygen after the finish and was advised to go straight to bed. Instead he walked down to dinner - in a canteen shared with 5 other teams - and gave everyone a big smile and had dinner. Word got back to Delgado.


Next day he was still smiling and put the hammer down from the first km. Delgado was so psyched out by this he didn't attack as planned feeling Roche was too strong. The reality was Roche could barely keep up.

Yes totally correct, I knew that so why did I type it the other way around?

tangled_metal

I flicked channels on TV and spotted the team time trail on the Vuelta. I remember one team, according to the commentator, as having 3 GC candidates. Sky has one GC candidate that all others ride for. It's their style and how they operate. All clinical in their approach and targets. If that other team, can't remember which, had the same dedicated GC contender then the other two would be supporting roles and that could make the difference for them.

RichN95.

Tangled Metal wrote:

I flicked channels on TV and spotted the team time trail on the Vuelta. I remember one team, according to the commentator, as having 3 GC candidates. Sky has one GC candidate that all others ride for. It's their style and how they operate. All clinical in their approach and targets. If that other team, can't remember which, had the same dedicated GC contender then the other two would be supporting roles and that could make the difference for them.

I will be Orica. They have three riders, Chaves and two Yateses, who are all in of a similar standard so one will be merge as having the best form and they'll support him. But they couldn't call it before the race and it doesn't hurt to keep others guessing.

mamba80

okgo wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

okgo wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

What about Anquetil? What was he like? Would he be the sort to achieve in a modern setting?

he certainly didnt believe in drinking only water.....

i would say Sean Kelly, whether he was on some drug regime is another matter, likely. But he had the right mental attitude to perform well in the modern era.

what is more interesting ref Froome, is would other members of SKY also win if they rode for say, Landa instead, i mean is froome an amzing cyclist or is he the one they all sacrifice themselves for, so he gets to the sharp end fresh.

Personally, i am always slightly skeptical when a cyclist who is exceptional in the mountains, can also be up there with the Tony Mrrtins etc in a flat TT.

the more Sky/froome win, the less i enjoy watching pro cycling, they ruin the sport.

You don't get much draft going up a hill, when his last man peels off he'll have been working very hard for the duration and then has to attack. He is the best rider they have, easily, for grand tours, hence they work for him. Landa looked quite strong in the TDF, but actually when given a chance to attack solo he got nowhere. And he has a penchant for losing stages by leading them out, not that bright.

I have never got why they're mutually exclusive. Most of the best GC men at the minute are big guys who've got super thin, Dumoulin, Froome, Wiggins even. They're all up around 70kg, but they have the engines. Personally I find it more odd when Contador or Porte smash everyone in a TT, they're tiny men, but perhaps these days the aero side of things has taken the small man being shoot at TT thing out of the question.

They clearly are not ruining the sport. What a stupid thing to say.

why is that? the only opinion that matters is yours?
in any sport, if a team dominates, its detracts from the spectacle, an obv example is F1, at times it has become a race for 3rd place, same in the TDF, we all know that barring an accident, SKY will dominate, year in and year out, we get threads on how boring the route is etc etc it doesnt matter, its SKY that makes it boring!!!

I ve always looked fwd to the Vuelta for this reason but now SKY have targeted this race also..... exciting routes... made boring..... but yes i should have said for me it ruins the sport, you have a different view and like boring predictable racing :oops:

re big guys who have become thinner... odd that isnt it, time wil out if this is genuine or not but yes Contador/Porte should nt be smashing TT's and rarely do either.

I thought schools had gone back, clearly not.

Porte and Contador both have done very strong TT in the past. Porte beat Froome in a TT earlier this year.

yep as i said, your opinion is the only one that matters, hence the attempt at insults

imo teams/riders who dominate obv please their own die hard fans but make for boring racing, if you cant see that, then there is no hope for you.

re TT's .....Froome put 35seconds into Porte, 44 into Contador, 39 Bardet, certainly Porte was targeting the TDF, both riders at their peak and only 14km, not even club 10 distance, thats massive margins.
history shows us that riders who are exceptional at both, have cheated.

Having said all that, Froome was brilliant yesterday, attacking ride and didnt rely on his team mates... more pls.

silvergrenade

To ride the GC of the Vuelta after having won the Tour is insane....
Being the best amongst fresh competition is even more insane.

salsiccia1

silvergrenade wrote:

To ride the GC of the Vuelta after having won the Tour is insane....
Being the best amongst fresh competition is even more insane.

Froome is as good as fresh himself. He did nothing pre-Tour, went to the Tour undercooked, had to do relatively naff-all to win it due to an armchair ride from his team, and again has by far the strongest team in this Vuelta. Add that to him being the best GTer in the post-Contador-peak era and it's not insane.

silvergrenade

Salsiccia1 wrote:

silvergrenade wrote:

To ride the GC of the Vuelta after having won the Tour is insane....
Being the best amongst fresh competition is even more insane.

Froome is as good as fresh himself. He did nothing pre-Tour, went to the Tour undercooked, had to do relatively naff-all to win it due to an armchair ride from his team, and again has by far the strongest team in this Vuelta. Add that to him being the best GTer in the post-Contador-peak era and it's not insane.

Winning the TdF due to an armchair ride from his team? I'm not so sure. Even so, people riding the Tour are on their hands and knees just sitting in the bunch doing nothing. Its brutal. On top of that, to be on the sharp end of things every day for 3 weeks....Its amazing.
And then, a month on, he goes to the Vuelta. Visibly better than well rested GT riders like Nibs, Zaks, Wilco, Chaves.
It takes a special specimen to be able to do that.
Somebody different. Somebody not normal. Somebody insane.

salsiccia1

Somebody has to be the best, it just happens to be Froome. And it's not like he's beating everyone by minutes all the time.

I know what you're insinuating and I'm not getting in to it.

andyp

It's not like he hasn't done this before, either. He's raced the Vuelta every year since 2011, bar 2013, and has consistently been high up on GC after having ridden the Tour for GC first.

r0bh

silvergrenade wrote:

And then, a month on, he goes to the Vuelta. Visibly better than well rested GT riders like Nibs, Zaks, Wilco, Chaves.

You know that Chaves rode the Tour yes? And was (not unexpectedly, given injuries he's had etc) going like a bag of spanners? So if you have trouble with Froome maintaining his form Tour to Vuelta, what say you about Chaves massively increasing his form Tour to Vuelta?

slim_boy_fat

silvergrenade wrote:

To ride the GC of the Vuelta after having won the Tour is insane....
Being the best amongst fresh competition is even more insane.

He was clearly below his best at the Tour and is at peak form for the Vuelta after doing nothing in terms of results at the beginning of the year. Seems like he and Sky have played it perfectly this year in regard to having him at the right level to achieve his goals.

silvergrenade

r0bh wrote:

silvergrenade wrote:

And then, a month on, he goes to the Vuelta. Visibly better than well rested GT riders like Nibs, Zaks, Wilco, Chaves.

You know that Chaves rode the Tour yes? And was (not unexpectedly, given injuries he's had etc) going like a bag of spanners? So if you have trouble with Froome maintaining his form Tour to Vuelta, what say you about Chaves massively increasing his form Tour to Vuelta?

Chaves never really targeted the Tour and due to his injury as well as the unfortunate demise of his personal physio really affected him.
He needed to gain racing miles as well as form and riding the Tour "easy" is a perfect prep for the Vuelta. This is the ONLY reason why Big T decided to ride the Tour last year to smash it in the Rio TT.

PS: I dont have trouble with Froome maintaining his form from Tour to the Vuelta. What he's doing has never been done in the modern era. Is he the best GT rider of the modern era? The jury is out there.

RonB

Maybe never done lately but Froome himself has been pretty close in recent years. Best GC rider? Depends on how you define the modern era, but some might say he'll have to have a crack at the Giro to qualify.

durhamwasp

Looks like his season long plan to peak late in the Tour and maintain it for the Vuelta is working, and we can all forget about him understandably not winning every race earlier in the season.

RichN95.

RonB wrote:

Maybe never done lately but Froome himself has been pretty close in recent years. Best GC rider? Depends on how you define the modern era, but some might say he'll have to have a crack at the Giro to qualify.

I don't see that it makes much difference. The three GTs aren't that much different. I can't remember a multiple Tour winner that failed at the Giro (Armstrong didn't try of course)

Lookyhere

Boring racing, Froome and perhaps more importantly, SKY, are just too good, he is certainly far and away the best GT rider of the so called clean era.

The format (at every mountain stage) is the same, Sky on the front, use up their riders, then froome goes, my partner a big froome fan, no longer watched either the TDF or Vuelta, she knows the result already.

As Gary said on ITV4 tonight "Depressing" (though Millar took the opposite view)

tailwindhome

It intrigues me that so many other "Froome"s may have finished the degree and got a nice job in PWC or similar.

bobmcstuff

TailWindHome wrote:

It intrigues me that so many other "Froome"s may have finished the degree and got a nice job in PWC or similar.

Not too sure Froome would have made it in that environment.

RichN95.

TailWindHome wrote:

It intrigues me that so many other "Froome"s may have finished the degree and got a nice job in PWC or similar.

Tom Dumoulin got turned down for medical school (due to some sort of ballot). He says that he would have quit cycling had he got in.

frisbee

Lookyhere wrote:

Boring racing, Froome and perhaps more importantly, SKY, are just too good, he is certainly far and away the best GT rider of the so called clean era.

The format (at every mountain stage) is the same, Sky on the front, use up their riders, then froome goes, my partner a big froome fan, no longer watched either the TDF or Vuelta, she knows the result already.

As Gary said on ITV4 tonight "Depressing" (though Millar took the opposite view)

If Bidet had timed one of his attacks properly then he could have won the stage.

I'm still amazed how poor the tactics of the other teams are. All they need to do is gang up, hammer sky on a few consecutive days and then put a couple of GC guys in a long break.

RichN95.

frisbee wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

Boring racing, Froome and perhaps more importantly, SKY, are just too good, he is certainly far and away the best GT rider of the so called clean era.

The format (at every mountain stage) is the same, Sky on the front, use up their riders, then froome goes, my partner a big froome fan, no longer watched either the TDF or Vuelta, she knows the result already.

As Gary said on ITV4 tonight "Depressing" (though Millar took the opposite view)

If Bidet had timed one of his attacks properly then he could have won the stage.

The problem with Bidet is that what he does makes sense to the French but tends to leave us Brits a bit baffled

Bo Duke

Sky and Froome are dominating because the other teams aren't challenging them? Where's Nibbles, Aru etc..? Are they waiting until week three hoping Froome will run out of gas after the TdF and 2 weeks of the Vuelta? Is that a game plan at all?

Question: what was Sky's gameplan at the start, how big a gap did they imagine they'd have by first rest day? Are they on target or behind? Basically its 1.30mins to Nibbles, TJ and Aru, 3.32mins to Berti trying to win his final GT.

Is it enough... I'm not sure. Week three will be very tough for a tired Froome who is putting in an incredible amount of work on a daily basis whereas Nibbles and Aru are tucked away in the peloton conserving energy.

1. GBRFROOME Christopher 21 TEAM SKY 36h 33' 16''
2. COLCHAVES RUBIO Johan Esteban 41 ORICA - SCOTT 36h 33' 52'' + 00' 36''
3. IRLROCHE Nicolas 36 BMC RACING TEAM 36h 34' 21'' + 01' 05''
4. ITANIBALI Vincenzo 151 BAHRAIN - MERIDA 36h 34' 33'' + 01' 17''
5. USAVAN GARDEREN Tejay 38 BMC RACING TEAM 36h 34' 43'' + 01' 27''
6. ESPDE LA CRUZ MELGAREJO David 11 QUICK - STEP FLOORS 36h 34' 46'' + 01' 30''
7. ITAARU Fabio 131 ASTANA PRO TEAM 36h 34' 49'' + 01' 33''

silvergrenade

Lookyhere wrote:

Boring racing, Froome and perhaps more importantly, SKY, are just too good, he is certainly far and away the best GT rider of the so called clean era.

The format (at every mountain stage) is the same, Sky on the front, use up their riders, then froome goes, my partner a big froome fan, no longer watched either the TDF or Vuelta, she knows the result already.

As Gary said on ITV4 tonight "Depressing" (though Millar took the opposite view)

The first week(until the first rest day) of the Vuelta has been amazing to say the least.
In terms of entertainment;
Vuelta>>>>>>>>>>>>Tour>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Giro

Giro first week was torture. 3-4 no name riders going in the breakaway just to be pulled back easily. No big group even trying and an average field in terms of sprint firepower. Horrible first week.

The Tour was much better I would say. Very big names and big breakways going with very strong riders and best sprinters, punchers and roulers. Pretttyyy good first week. Sagan going. Don Piti out. Cav out. It was good entertainment.

We've seen so much GC action already in the Vuelta and the impressive GC startlist with that course really helps in making it even more so. I would anyday prefer a bit of a murito style finish than flat snooze-fests. Big breakaways. Breakaways trying to actually win. Vuelta first week. 4.5 stars.

silvergrenade

Bo Duke wrote:

Sky and Froome are dominating because the other teams aren't challenging them? Where's Nibbles, Aru etc..? Are they waiting until week three hoping Froome will run out of gas after the TdF and 2 weeks of the Vuelta? Is that a game plan at all?

Question: what was Sky's gameplan at the start, how big a gap did they imagine they'd have by first rest day? Are they on target or behind? Basically its 1.30mins to Nibbles, TJ and Aru, 3.32mins to Berti trying to win his final GT.

Is it enough... I'm not sure. Week three will be very tough for a tired Froome who is putting in an incredible amount of work on a daily basis whereas Nibbles and Aru are tucked away in the peloton conserving energy.

1. GBRFROOME Christopher 21 TEAM SKY 36h 33' 16''
2. COLCHAVES RUBIO Johan Esteban 41 ORICA - SCOTT 36h 33' 52'' + 00' 36''
3. IRLROCHE Nicolas 36 BMC RACING TEAM 36h 34' 21'' + 01' 05''
4. ITANIBALI Vincenzo 151 BAHRAIN - MERIDA 36h 34' 33'' + 01' 17''
5. USAVAN GARDEREN Tejay 38 BMC RACING TEAM 36h 34' 43'' + 01' 27''
6. ESPDE LA CRUZ MELGAREJO David 11 QUICK - STEP FLOORS 36h 34' 46'' + 01' 30''
7. ITAARU Fabio 131 ASTANA PRO TEAM 36h 34' 49'' + 01' 33''

From what I've read, Vincenzo is hitting all time PBs in terms of power outputs. Its just everybody else is so strong that they can't challenge.
Froome is killing them slowly. A death by a thousand cuts it seems.

As far as Aru, Nibz saving energy is concerned, I wouldn't be too sure. When you go into the red and drop and try to claw back every day, it weakens you. Froome, on the other hand not so much.

5 proper mountain stages in the second week. Shudder to think what they'd do in the third week.

Bo Duke

silvergrenade wrote:

5 proper mountain stages in the second week. Shudder to think what they'd do in the third week.

It's a great race, some real tussles going on HOWEVER... with the Giro, TdF and Vuelta all competing to make their races harder and more exciting to a tv viewer we risk asking too much (once again) of the GC contenders and start to push them back towards exploring 'alternative training aids'.

There's a fine fine between torturing the hell out of riders with mountain top finishes and over the course of a season burn riders out simply because the demands are too great.

andyp

silvergrenade wrote:

From what I've read, Vincenzo is hitting all time PBs in terms of power outputs. Its just everybody else is so strong that they can't challenge.

Nibali is always hitting PBs in the weeks before a GT. It's like it's Slongo's catchphrase.

hypster

frisbee wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

Boring racing, Froome and perhaps more importantly, SKY, are just too good, he is certainly far and away the best GT rider of the so called clean era.

The format (at every mountain stage) is the same, Sky on the front, use up their riders, then froome goes, my partner a big froome fan, no longer watched either the TDF or Vuelta, she knows the result already.

As Gary said on ITV4 tonight "Depressing" (though Millar took the opposite view)

If Bidet had timed one of his attacks properly then he could have won the stage.

I'm still amazed how poor the tactics of the other teams are. All they need to do is gang up, hammer sky on a few consecutive days and then put a couple of GC guys in a long break.

Chris Boardman and other commentators are always banging on about how teams should get together and challenge Sky/Froome and put them under pressure. To me this is just nonsense and seems even more amazing coming from ex-pro racers.

Can you imagine Nibali/Aru/Contador and all the other egos actually getting together and co-operating in a race? They may be able to do it if circumstances present themselves on one stage for instance like Stage 15 last year but to do it on a concerted basis in a grand tour would be impossible I think. They are racing each other at the end of the day as well as Froome so it just ain't gonna happen.

Somebody will always have more to gain than others out of a group and it always comes down to one person at the end of the day. Everyone else will then take the view "why should I race to help him?" You see it time and again in breakaway groups where riders do not help because it is not in their interest or others won't chase because there's nothing in it for them.

silvergrenade

andyp wrote:

silvergrenade wrote:

From what I've read, Vincenzo is hitting all time PBs in terms of power outputs. Its just everybody else is so strong that they can't challenge.

Nibali is always hitting PBs in the weeks before a GT. It's like it's Slongo's catchphrase.

Would have agreed with you had it been only Big Mouth Nibz...
Louis and Rui have said that too.