How would YOU beat Froome?

supermurph09

Froome is clearly the best rider in the race but I can't help but think why BMC, Movistar, OGE and Trek haven't got together and decided to work together a bit more (unless I've missed that stage). Clearly one rider attacking isn't working, Yates, Porte (to an extent), Mollema, Quintana are all performing OK, the race would surely take on a different dynamic if ALL those teams attacked, Sky and Froome cannot bring back everyone.

"Right then guys, Froome is going to win, we are not strong enough as individual teams but together if we all attack then one of our GC riders could overhaul him and win. That means Froome won't win and one of us might, that plan is surely better than letting him win with futile attacks".

Or something to that effect.

larkim

But they all want their guy to win. I don't think Froome is considered to be the Man Utd (i.e. "anyone but them to win") of the GC (by the contenders themselves), so they'll all do what's best for their GC guy to be best placed, whether that's 1st, 2nd or lower. You won't get Movistar deliberately risking blowing up Quintana and Valverde just for Porte to top the podium ahead of Froome.

Plus, there is nowt any of them can do about TT advantages. He gained buckets on that first one, and there's no reason to suggest he won't do the same again (possibly with bells on) in the mountain TT (albeit a shorter distance).

supermurph09

larkim wrote:

But they all want their guy to win. I don't think Froome is considered to be the Man Utd (i.e. "anyone but them to win") of the GC (by the contenders themselves), so they'll all do what's best for their GC guy to be best placed, whether that's 1st, 2nd or lower. You won't get Movistar deliberately risking blowing up Quintana and Valverde just for Porte to top the podium ahead of Froome.

Plus, there is nowt any of them can do about TT advantages. He gained buckets on that first one, and there's no reason to suggest he won't do the same again (possibly with bells on) in the mountain TT (albeit a shorter distance).

Not saying they are anti-froome but they should all realise that on their own they don't appear to be able to stop him. So what do you do, settle for 2nd? I'd rather my team attack and get 7th or 8th than settle for 2nd, but I guess the podium is acceptable for some and may keep the sponsors happy, if that's the case then so be it.

ugo.santalucia

You can't beat Froome, his domestiques can easily go and close on Aru, Quintana and all the others, so unless Froome has a problem, you can't beat him in the mountains... boring as it is

Bo Duke

amrushton wrote:

There was the stage last or 3 years(?) ago where Movistar drilled it on the valley floor and the Sky team just went out of the back. Froome then proceeds to attach himself to the M-star train and they led him up the mountain. Not ideal for him but they were riding at a pace he could sustain so he just sat there and watched

Love it... Froomie doesn't care who's train it is, he just loves riding trains ! :twisted:

larkim

Supermurph09 wrote:

larkim wrote:

But they all want their guy to win. I don't think Froome is considered to be the Man Utd (i.e. "anyone but them to win") of the GC (by the contenders themselves), so they'll all do what's best for their GC guy to be best placed, whether that's 1st, 2nd or lower. You won't get Movistar deliberately risking blowing up Quintana and Valverde just for Porte to top the podium ahead of Froome.

Plus, there is nowt any of them can do about TT advantages. He gained buckets on that first one, and there's no reason to suggest he won't do the same again (possibly with bells on) in the mountain TT (albeit a shorter distance).

Not saying they are anti-froome but they should all realise that on their own they don't appear to be able to stop him. So what do you do, settle for 2nd? I'd rather my team attack and get 7th or 8th than settle for 2nd, but I guess the podium is acceptable for some and may keep the sponsors happy, if that's the case then so be it.

I think podium is way more than acceptable for most, particularly vs 7th or 8th. In just about every scenario, 2nd is better than all other results except for the win. The only people who think its worth risking are fans or perhaps those who have already achieved the top spot.

above_the_cows

Stop the moto right in front of him and hope he doesn't either run the rest of the stage or get back on.

A crash aside or a massive jour sans then you aren't going to beat him that's why he's in yellow.

RichN95.

He's more beatable than Indurain or Armstrong were.

mrfpb

larkim wrote:

I think podium is way more than acceptable for most, particularly vs 7th or 8th. In just about every scenario, 2nd is better than all other results except for the win. The only people who think its worth risking are fans or perhaps those who have already achieved the top spot.

But with the current field a podium isn't guaranteed now matter how safe you play. Why not go all out for the win? 10th is as good as 4th in the grand scheme or things. Yates may settle for the White jersey and not bother about a top 3, but every other rider within 10 mins of Froome (currently 13 of them) must be thinking about the podium.

above_the_cows

RichN95 wrote:

He's more beatable than Indurain or Armstrong were.

It's all relative.

Bo Duke

Bo Duke wrote:

amrushton wrote:

There was the stage last or 3 years(?) ago where Movistar drilled it on the valley floor and the Sky team just went out of the back. Froome then proceeds to attach himself to the M-star train and they led him up the mountain. Not ideal for him but they were riding at a pace he could sustain so he just sat there and watched

Love it... Froomie doesn't care who's train it is, he just loves riding trains ! :twisted:

They've just shown an intercity train pass alongside the peloton, half expected to see Froomie stonking along behind it !

larkim

mrfpb wrote:

larkim wrote:

I think podium is way more than acceptable for most, particularly vs 7th or 8th. In just about every scenario, 2nd is better than all other results except for the win. The only people who think its worth risking are fans or perhaps those who have already achieved the top spot.

But with the current field a podium isn't guaranteed now matter how safe you play. Why not go all out for the win? 10th is as good as 4th in the grand scheme or things. Yates may settle for the White jersey and not bother about a top 3, but every other rider within 10 mins of Froome (currently 13 of them) must be thinking about the podium.

That's a different proposition. I'm sure every one of them wants to be on the podium, 1st if they can be, 2nd if they can be, 3td if that's the best they can do. And that's exactly what you're seeing. Any move any one of the top 10 makes in the next few days will be about improving their own position in the classification, not about gunning for Froome specifically. I would expect any professional sportsman to be trying to improve from 10th to 9th, 9th to 8th etc etc right up to the finish line. But I wouldn't expect those in 10th to 6th to club together and say "let's risk the places we already have and see which of us can take down Froome, whilst the rest of us end up lower down the GC than before our attacks start"!

If Mollema, Yates and Quintana don't have the belief that they can take down Froome (and let's face it, they've ridden with the guy for the last two weeks, they should know if he's looking strong or weak), then the best thing they can do is to protect their own positions, and I'd be applauding them for doing it. In years to come, perhaps they'll look back on the 2016 Tour as being the one year they might have had a shot of winning it, and regret not red-lining it ever since. Or perhaps they'll look back with satisfaction knowing that that was the best they could have done.

I don't know what the psychology of an elite cyclist is, but I suspect that most days (particularly on the climbs) each of them, even if they are riding a train to the top, is at a level of exertion that requires both physical and mental commitment that we can't really imagine. If they have already told themselves there's nothing to play for that has any value if 2nd means nothing, they'd be out the back the moment it got tough. Those top 10 placings are worth fighting for and holding on to, even if 1 of those placings looks out of reach.

amrushton

Remember they ride next toFroome and the team every day - they will be looking for signs of weakness. It may just be he is the strongest and would you have a go and risk your 3rd or 4th position so Aru/Van Garderen etc go past you? Yates and Orica may be v.happy with 3rd - he could be a future winner and the data they get on him is going to help develop him He also becomes more marketable should he decide to move. We've yet to see what his brother can do (Simon is supposedly 'better'). BMC are currently the best team and if they can keep that they go on the podium in Paris. Inrng ran an article on this a couple of years back and how much that Team Prize can be worth

DeVlaeminck

It's true podium places are valuable but some are more valuable than others. Voeckler famously lost out on a podium gambling on a long shot that might have brought him the win, that to me is worth more in both kudos and exposure than a Joseba Beloki style 3rd or 2nd. If it wasn't for his accident - ironically when he was really attacking Armstrong for once - he'd be a forgotten man now despite 3 podium finishes not so long ago.

If it was me and I was in say Porte's position I'd be trying to win even if that put my place in the GC at risk, Yates and a few others who are new to this level of riding I can see why they might be more conservative.

josame

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You can't beat Froome, his domestiques can easily go and close on Aru, Quintana and all the others, so unless Froome has a problem, you can't beat him in the mountains... boring as it is

That's not true if there was a concerted effort by all the other teams to do the 'old one, two' Froomes train would not be able to answer every attack.. then recover, answer an attack.. then recover - the only reason they can is because it is not sustained by every team, with a decent climber in it, on a properly concerted basis - rather than as now, just a few people trying a few times.

Alex99

josame wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You can't beat Froome, his domestiques can easily go and close on Aru, Quintana and all the others, so unless Froome has a problem, you can't beat him in the mountains... boring as it is

That's not true if there was a concerted effort by all the other teams to do the 'old one, two' Froomes train would not be able to answer every attack.. then recover, answer an attack.. then recover - the only reason they can is because it is not sustained by every team, with a decent climber in it, on a properly concerted basis - rather than as now, just a few people trying a few times.

But, it's not Sky vs everyone else. Other teams will defend their positions.

How would this super team made up of the rest of the peleton work? How would they decide who they are riding for? How would the other team managers decide who is the 'chosen one' once they manage to crack all of the Sky climber-domestiques? How many climbers are there in the peleton that could hang with Poels + Landa over the final few climbs long enough to perform this sustained attack? I can answer that one: not many... basically the team leaders.

Alex99

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's true podium places are valuable but some are more valuable than others. Voeckler famously lost out on a podium gambling on a long shot that might have brought him the win, that to me is worth more in both kudos and exposure than a Joseba Beloki style 3rd or 2nd. If it wasn't for his accident - ironically when he was really attacking Armstrong for once - he'd be a forgotten man now despite 3 podium finishes not so long ago.

If it was me and I was in say Porte's position I'd be trying to win even if that put my place in the GC at risk, Yates and a few others who are new to this level of riding I can see why they might be more conservative.

I'd love to see Porte lay it on the line and shock the race. Send Tejay up the road first maybe.

josame

Alex99 wrote:

But, it's not Sky vs everyone else. Other teams will defend their positions.

How would this super team made up of the rest of the peloton work? How would they decide who they are riding for? How would the other team managers decide who is the 'chosen one' once they manage to crack all of the Sky climber-domestiques? How many climbers are there in the peloton that could hang with Poels + Landa over the final few climbs long enough to perform this sustained attack? I can answer that one: not many... basically the team leaders.

All good points and that's why it hasn't happened - but I was just answering the Q of the thread 8)

timoid.

josame wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You can't beat Froome, his domestiques can easily go and close on Aru, Quintana and all the others, so unless Froome has a problem, you can't beat him in the mountains... boring as it is

That's not true if there was a concerted effort by all the other teams to do the 'old one, two' Froomes train would not be able to answer every attack.. then recover, answer an attack.. then recover - the only reason they can is because it is not sustained by every team, with a decent climber in it, on a properly concerted basis - rather than as now, just a few people trying a few times.

But Sky don't respond that way, they just grind at a high pace and gradually reel the breakaway in. They know exactly how many Watts to ride at and for how long and attacks just don't stick.

I think unless Froome has a jour sans, this one is done. Also, if I'm Mollema or Yates I play it safe. I think (as said above) that Porte is the most likely one for a death or glory ride, but that would only be to secure a podium.

RichN95.

Every time Froome does something above the mundane at the Tour the accusations of doping or motors rear their head, not least from French TV. Frankly, I hope he wins this in the most boring and uneventful manner possible and saves the show for the Vuelta. It's what the cycling media deserve .

bobmcstuff

If some of the riders lower down went on the attack for the other 2 podium spots that would be good to watch (even if Froome went with them and gained another bucket of time - but if that happened everyone would still call it boring).

bobmcstuff

RichN95 wrote:

Every time Froome does something above the mundane at the Tour the accusations of doping or motors seat their head, not least from French TV. Frankly, I hope he wins this in the most boring and uneventful manner possible. It's what the cycling media deserve .

This tour he's attacked on a descent, gone clear with Sagan on a flat stage and run up Mont Ventoux.

In my mind that's not particularly uneventful, but apparently I'm not jaded enough.

tailwindhome

RichN95.

So then the question to ask is how have Sky secured big budget long term funding from a blue multinational while other teams have to rely on billionaires, dictatorships and lotteries? And then there's the French whose cycling landscape has remained undisturbed for two decades.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Every time Froome does something above the mundane at the Tour the accusations of doping or motors rear their head, not least from French TV. Frankly, I hope he wins this in the most boring and uneventful manner possible and saves the show for the Vuelta. It's what the cycling media deserve .

I have to say I haven't heard any of that at all. None whatsoever.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Every time Froome does something above the mundane at the Tour the accusations of doping or motors rear their head, not least from French TV. Frankly, I hope he wins this in the most boring and uneventful manner possible and saves the show for the Vuelta. It's what the cycling media deserve .

I have to say I haven't heard any of that at all. None whatsoever.

I was referring more to last year.

above_the_cows

RichN95 wrote:

So then the question to ask is how have Sky secured big budget long term funding from a blue multinational while other teams have to rely on billionaires, dictatorships and lotteries? And then there's the French whose cycling landscape has remained undisturbed for two decades.

Because they're professional and so the sponsors feel secure. They then bring in the results so the sponsors see a return on their investment. And on and on like that? Maybe, I don't know?

rick_chasey

Only reason Froome hasn't charged off up a mountain is he hasn't really had the chance to.

rick_chasey

So say you're Bauke Mollema. You've got Yates and Quintana near enough a minute back. One of them will be on the attack for the podium, at least. Valverede probably too.

You know Chris can be a bit like a dog with a ball in the final week.

Surely you lay it all on Chris and go ' you want yellow, you chase 'em?'

Alex99

josame wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

But, it's not Sky vs everyone else. Other teams will defend their positions.

How would this super team made up of the rest of the peloton work? How would they decide who they are riding for? How would the other team managers decide who is the 'chosen one' once they manage to crack all of the Sky climber-domestiques? How many climbers are there in the peloton that could hang with Poels + Landa over the final few climbs long enough to perform this sustained attack? I can answer that one: not many... basically the team leaders.

All good points and that's why it hasn't happened - but I was just answering the Q of the thread 8)