How would YOU beat Froome?

Richmond Racer 2

^Sky on that stage in 2013 in disarray...what happened was a bit more complicated

The seeds for that stage were sown by the way they rode the previous day when Froome-Porte got the 1-2

They got carried away, lost their heads and rode like maniacs. they spent a LOT of energy (Porte and the other doms). Porte pretty much disobeyed orders to go for that 2nd place.

So the next day, there was a deal of accumulated fatigue, li'l Pete got knocked into a ditch by Hesjedal barging past him, and critically - and unusually for Sky - they lost their usual discipline and tried to chase down everything that moved. Some reckoned that wouldn't have happened if Rogers had still been with the team and road captain. At the very least, someone who would have kept a cool head.

Its rare to see Sky lose their heads and lose their discipline like that.

ridgerider

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

How to beat Froome: be Nairo Quintana and be ready for when Froome has a bad day.

This

Though I suppose the next question is - how can you increase the chances of him having a bad day?

...or spot when he is having it?

pinno

Ridgerider wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

How to beat Froome: be Nairo Quintana and be ready for when Froome has a bad day.

This

Though I suppose the next question is - how can you increase the chances of him having a bad day?

...or spot when he is having it?

Yeah, that staring at the stem bizness is just a ploy...

ic.

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^Sky on that stage in 2013 in disarray...what happened was a bit more complicated

The seeds for that stage were sown by the way they rode the previous day when Froome-Porte got the 1-2

They got carried away, lost their heads and rode like maniacs. they spent a LOT of energy (Porte and the other doms). Porte pretty much disobeyed orders to go for that 2nd place.

So the next day, there was a deal of accumulated fatigue, li'l Pete got knocked into a ditch by Hesjedal barging past him, and critically - and unusually for Sky - they lost their usual discipline and tried to chase down everything that moved. Some reckoned that wouldn't have happened if Rogers had still been with the team and road captain. At the very least, someone who would have kept a cool head.

Its rare to see Sky lose their heads and lose their discipline like that.

That being said, I'm pretty sure Froome gained time on that stage anyway. Am I remembering correctly?

The_Boy

Ridgerider wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

How to beat Froome: be Nairo Quintana and be ready for when Froome has a bad day.

This

Though I suppose the next question is - how can you increase the chances of him having a bad day?

...or spot when he is having it?

It's pretty easy to spot. If you're 5km from the summit of a MTF and he still has 5 guys in front of him? That's when.

bompington

Pinno wrote:

Sod the above, I want Bertie to win it.

Bertie - stick to Quintana's wheel who's sticking to Froome's wheel right up until the Ventoux... Just listen to me amigo and it will all work out just fine.

I think we all know Bertie's best tactic for having a chance of winning.

pinno

bompington wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Sod the above, I want Bertie to win it.

Bertie - stick to Quintana's wheel who's sticking to Froome's wheel right up until the Ventoux... Just listen to me amigo and it will all work out just fine.

I think we all know Bertie's best tactic for having a chance of winning.

Yes and it doesn't involve listening to me.

Bo Duke

Pinno wrote:

bompington wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Sod the above, I want Bertie to win it.

Bertie - stick to Quintana's wheel who's sticking to Froome's wheel right up until the Ventoux... Just listen to me amigo and it will all work out just fine.

I think we all know Bertie's best tactic for having a chance of winning.

Yes and it doesn't involve listening to me.

I hear barbeques are all the rage in Spain at the moment.

Paul 8v

Bin Valverde off and concentrate on Quintana. None of the other teams have a squad as strong as the one Sky are putting out though so it'll be a tough one.

shinyhelmut

Stopping Froome winning would be considerably easier than beating Froome. Lots of plans to put him under pressure but few teams with the strength to do this and then go on to win themselves.

thchris1958

ShinyHelmut wrote:

Stopping Froome winning would be considerably easier than beating Froome. Lots of plans to put him under pressure but few teams with the strength to do this and then go on to win themselves.

but is that these teams are ready to take the risk to lose with this tactic that could benefit someone else :?:

larkim

Surely no team is out to destroy Froome but benefit AN Other rather than their team leader? I don't think you can reasonably expect to win by being defensive all of the time, but obviously its that balance of attack and defence which you've got to get right. To win, whoever you are, you need to find the opportunities to benefit your team leader and then maximise them.

tailwindhome

*bump*

This is going well so far.
Anyone got a plan?

For me the only roll of the dice requires TJ and Valverde to be willing to sacrifice their positions to attack early from the cat 1 climb on Wednesday. These don't need to be hail marys just enough to force the sky train to up the wattage to bring them back and start tiring them out.

8 cat 1 or HC climbs left. Make them race every one and make it a race of attrition.

yourpaceormine

TailWindHome wrote:

For me the only roll of the dice requires TJ and Valverde to be willing to sacrifice their positions.

Think this is the problem - riders need to sacrifice to win, but are very unlikely because points mean contracts. Gary Imlach is already talking about Yates and Mollema defending their podium spots, yet there's still a week of hard racing to go.

To beat Froome I guess you have to be even more Froome like than Froome. Not lose seconds, but gain them by being attentive. Every opportunity to take time has to be taken. But the biggest tactic is to have a loyal focused team. Sky clearly reward their team well which is part of why they are so teamy. Movistar - on paper very strong, but is Senõr Hairplugs ever going to commit to 100℅ super domestique? BMC another team full of talent, but do they know who to support, Lady Garden or Titchie?

Mollema and Yates show the most potential as they haven't had the backing of an all-out GC team behind them, yet they are currently flying high.

dougzz

TailWindHome wrote:

*bump*
This is going well so far.
Anyone got a plan?
For me the only roll of the dice requires TJ and Valverde to be willing to sacrifice their positions to attack early from the cat 1 climb on Wednesday. These don't need to be hail marys just enough to force the sky train to up the wattage to bring them back and start tiring them out.
8 cat 1 or HC climbs left. Make them race every one and make it a race of attrition.

No real evidence that either of them could sustain an attack to put Poels in trouble, never mind Froome. Week to go so anything can happen, but tactically it would seem none of them really know what they can do to dent Sky, and Quintan's seeming plan of just being better than Froome seems way off. I suspect TJ and Valverde going early would damage Porte and Quintana more than it would Froome. Hopefully Quintana's legs will come back this week and they'll be some battles to make the stages more exciting than wondering whether Sky will pull back a break to win the stage or not.

dougzz

Rick Chasey wrote:

You've got to do something about that team.
I mean it's ridiculously good.
Worryingly good, from an entertainment perspective.

Good call.
I'm not really a cycling geek and forget a lot of stuff, so this may all be wrong. But Poels, Nieve, Landa etc. were not 'super' domestics before their Sky time. I think Landa had good days and a good Giro last year, and I suppose he's younger so it was maybe there before, Nieve less so, but with Poels was he just never on a GC teams so never shown the talent he had? Do they benefits from Sky's training and money, the Tenerife trips or do Sky identify riders with a big upside not previously exploited. Both? Something else?

inseine

SKY lost most of the team on the first climb yesterday, but after the break was established the peloton backed off and they all got back on. Obviously the main men for the mountains were there but they were allowed to regroup. It's been said before but the only possible plan for the other teams is to go early and go hard.

takethehighroad

Hope he falls off, genuinely. He's as dominant at an equivalent stage of this Tour as Kruijswijk was in the Giro.

The only thing is, if he does fall off, unlike SK he's got a strong enough team to get him back on

Alex99

IC. wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^Sky on that stage in 2013 in disarray...what happened was a bit more complicated

The seeds for that stage were sown by the way they rode the previous day when Froome-Porte got the 1-2

They got carried away, lost their heads and rode like maniacs. they spent a LOT of energy (Porte and the other doms). Porte pretty much disobeyed orders to go for that 2nd place.

So the next day, there was a deal of accumulated fatigue, li'l Pete got knocked into a ditch by Hesjedal barging past him, and critically - and unusually for Sky - they lost their usual discipline and tried to chase down everything that moved. Some reckoned that wouldn't have happened if Rogers had still been with the team and road captain. At the very least, someone who would have kept a cool head.

Its rare to see Sky lose their heads and lose their discipline like that.

That being said, I'm pretty sure Froome gained time on that stage anyway. Am I remembering correctly?

I'm sure that was a tough day of racing for Froome. But as I recall, even though he was isolated, he shut the attacks down so decisively that the other contenders packed it in after a while. That really showed that even on his own, he can deal with a lot.

Alex99

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

Hope he falls off, genuinely. He's as dominant at an equivalent stage of this Tour as Kruijswijk was in the Giro.

The only thing is, if he does fall off, unlike SK he's got a strong enough team to get him back on

Think you should change your user name

TheBigBean

As I said upthread, isolate him on the flat. They had their chance 30km before the end on Ventoux

hypster

This sort of thread just makes me laugh. How do you beat the best rider in the race?

It's simple (but not easy). You take someone who is genetically gifted, start them riding young, give them incredible dedication and determination, train like hell and put them in the best team.

All this talk of what Quintana/Valverde/Teejay van Garderan/et al should do or where this team or that team should attack is just nonsense. It's patently obvious that Froome is the strongest all-round rider in the race and there is no-one within a country mile of him at the moment. The fact that he has a strong team around him also is no coincidence but it is also not the reason he is winning. He is simply better than anyone else.

No-one is attacking him because they can't, they just don't have the strength or the endurance to mount sustained attacks and defend their position day after day in a three week GT. If they did, I'm sure they would.

Before anyone accuses me of being a Froome fanboy I will admit I am a fan. But I'm also a fan of Richie Porte, Alberto Contador, Miguel Indurain and Eddy Merckx. All of which indicates nothing other than I like great riders and I want to see the best man win.

I don't like riders going out through injury or having some mechanical befall them which means they lose time through no fault of theirs like Richie Porte's puncture on Stage 2. We had the "Big 5" supposedly challenging Froome last year and look how that turned out. He is just the best of the best at the moment and people are going to have to live with that until someone better and more dedicated comes along.

amrushton

There was the stage last or 3 years(?) ago where Movistar drilled it on the valley floor and the Sky team just went out of the back. Froome then proceeds to attach himself to the M-star train and they led him up the mountain. Not ideal for him but they were riding at a pace he could sustain so he just sat there and watched

tailwindhome

hypster wrote:

It's simple (but not easy). You take someone who is genetically gifted, start them riding young, give them incredible dedication and determination, train like hell and put them in the best team.
.

I'm not sure we can achieve that before Sunday.
Can we put a pin in this idea and call it plan B?

hypster

TailWindHome wrote:

hypster wrote:

It's simple (but not easy). You take someone who is genetically gifted, start them riding young, give them incredible dedication and determination, train like hell and put them in the best team.
.

I'm not sure we can achieve that before Sunday.
Can we put a pin in this idea and call it plan B?

That would imply there is a Plan A.

adr82

hypster wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

hypster wrote:

It's simple (but not easy). You take someone who is genetically gifted, start them riding young, give them incredible dedication and determination, train like hell and put them in the best team.
.

I'm not sure we can achieve that before Sunday.
Can we put a pin in this idea and call it plan B?

That would imply there is a Plan A.

I thought plan A was "hope he falls off"?

(although that already happened...)

larkim

amrushton wrote:

There was the stage last or 3 years(?) ago where Movistar drilled it on the valley floor and the Sky team just went out of the back. Froome then proceeds to attach himself to the M-star train and they led him up the mountain. Not ideal for him but they were riding at a pace he could sustain so he just sat there and watched

Presumably this is just what Mollema and Yates are doing at the moment. Never quite understood why you only need your own teammates around (save for getting access to drinks / nutrition easier, and a spare bike should it be necessary). All Froome has to do now is use the other teams to drag him to the finish. No-one in the GC has shown themselves to be a better climber, time trialer, descender or flat rider to such an extent that they can go solo.

Now it might just be the case that Quintana is having a really, really easy time of it so far, and Froome is working moderately hard. And if that was the case, there's all the time in the world for Quintana to make one, long, solo push up a hill and convert that into a few minutes of advantage, having saved himself for all of the Tour so far. But there's no real evidence that that's the case. But then, why would there be any evidence?

Froome has an advantage that he can work with Yates and Mollema if Quintana wants to attack, as all of them having plenty to defend from that situation.

Froome is still within such a small margin that a mechanical could make the difference between winning and losing, so its not all over yet by any stretch. But let's hope its not settled by mechanical issues.

ddraver

I ve lost the bloomin'tweet now but there was a quote from Trek about Mollema saying that he COULD go for the win but why, when he's extremely happy with what he has now...

inseine

ddraver wrote:

I ve lost the bloomin'tweet now but there was a quote from Trek about Mollema saying that he COULD go for the win but why, when he's extremely happy with what he has now...

If you read team treks timeline, all the tweets are along the lines of 'everygoing well for Mollema'. They seem totally happy with the stage result, and happy that SKY had it 'in control'.

RonB

One thing you can say about Froome is, prior to his GC wins, he never seemed happy with 2nd or 3rd (Vuelta '11, TdF '12).