EU Referendum (Serious...ish)

pblakeney

Briggo wrote:

thekickingmule wrote:

I think she makes a really good case for both sides, to stop the BS, stop the name calling, the lies, the fearmongering and deceitful stories. People can genuinely be persuaded to change their minds, so start giving us facts about what you believe to happen. I hope both sides of the arguement understand this.

Hold on if it's what people believe will happen how is it a fact or a lie?

No one knows what's happen so nothing is a lie or a fact.

It's just a case of do we risk what we have now for something that may or may not be better? Is the grass going to be greener?

Of course the grass is going to be greener.
We will get pissed on whatever the outcome.

rockmonkeysc

I read a whole, long pro exit thing about how the EU has ruined British manufacturing by providing grants to businesses wanting to move part of their manufacturing to eastern Europe.
They seem to completely ignore the fact that to manufacture certain things in the UK just results in uncompetitive product costs so it's a case of move or go bust. One example given was the new Landrover plant in Slovakia. It's closer to a lot of component manufacturers and they need to compete against other vehicles built in cheaper countries with this vehicle. They made no mention of the two much larger new UK Jaguar Landrover plants due to open in Wales and the Midlands.
They also blamed the EU for not helping our steel industry. The UK government could have taken action and introduced an import duty on the cheap Chinese steel but chose not to. If the UK government didn't take action then why should the EU?

pblakeney

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The UK government could have taken action and introduced an import duty on the cheap Chinese steel but chose not to. If the UK government didn't take action then why should the EU?

IIRC, David Cameron was the ring leader that stopped the EU adding tariffs when they wanted to.

rockmonkeysc

PBlakeney wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The UK government could have taken action and introduced an import duty on the cheap Chinese steel but chose not to. If the UK government didn't take action then why should the EU?

IIRC, David Cameron was the ring leader that stopped the EU adding tariffs when they wanted to.

Yep. Didn't want to upset the Chinese but perfectly happy to allow them to destroy our steel industry.
I've read some pretty harsh criticism of Tata for selling or closing steel works but to be fair to them, they can't keep loosing £1m a day because the Chinese are dumping surplus steel in to the UK at unsustainable prices. Tata have done a great job of saving Jaguar and Landrover and growing both businesses massively and creating loads of British jobs and most importantly, constantly beating BMW. Audi and Mercedes in magazine road tests.

pblakeney

RockmonkeySC wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The UK government could have taken action and introduced an import duty on the cheap Chinese steel but chose not to. If the UK government didn't take action then why should the EU?

IIRC, David Cameron was the ring leader that stopped the EU adding tariffs when they wanted to.

Yep. Didn't want to upset the Chinese but perfectly happy to allow them to destroy our steel industry.
I've read some pretty harsh criticism of Tata for selling or closing steel works but to be fair to them, they can't keep loosing £1m a day because the Chinese are dumping surplus steel in to the UK at unsustainable prices. Tata have done a great job of saving Jaguar and Landrover and growing both businesses massively and creating loads of British jobs and most importantly, constantly beating BMW. Audi and Mercedes in magazine road tests.

Yup.
So the person doing the most damage to this Country is the leader? One could become cynical.

surrey_commuter

Veronese68 wrote:

Briggo wrote:

Hold on if it's what people believe will happen how is it a fact or a lie?

I think it was just the figure of £350 million a week that could then be used for the NHS that she was calling a lie. I'm not sure why they keep trotting it out it's been comprehensively disproved, yet they keep saying it.

They have kept it in the headlines so maybe not so daft

Daz555

A brief history of Europe.

War
War
War
War
War
War
War
War
War
War
War
Arguments about naming rights for cheese and the shape of bananas.
.

The leaders that formed political union after World War 2 knew that it was the only way to secure lasting peace and Churchill was one of them. Countries in that political union in Europe have been at peace for close to 70 years.....the longest period of peace in more than 2000 YEARS.

You do not leave an organisation like this just because some aspects are broken or frustrating...you seek to change it for the better.

British people do not QUIT. We stay and roll our sleeves up and fix what is wrong.

Quitting is about as un-British an idea as I've ever heard.

rockmonkeysc

Damn right ^^^^^^^^

It annoys me when I see these things on Facebook saying something like "my grandfather didn't singlehandedly fight two world wars so we could give up our sovereignty to a bunch of non democratic Europeans and let our country get overrun by immigrants"
No, you morons. You're grandfather fought for peace across Europe and freedom for all Europeans and a peaceful future for all people.
It's almost as bad when UKIP made that anti immigration poster showing a spitfire from a RAF squadron of Polish pilots.

thekickingmule

Yes, but the agreement that was signed was for the countries to be able to trade fairly with each other, and look at each other in a peaceful way. Also, it was a great way for all the other countries to make sure Germany wasn't doing anything dodgy, whilst they paid to clean up the rest of Europe that they'd ruined.

I hate either side referencing Churchill. Yes, he wanted peace in Europe, but I bet he wouldn't have been too keen on hearing about what it's turned into.

As I said earlier, Europe needs to stop trying to be a supreme governor, as it will just annoy more countries, you'll have more right wing groups getting larger votes in elections, and before you know it, either the EU will collapse, or fighting will begin.

One thing I thought of the other day, South America isn't unified in any way, yet they all get along and trade with each other fine. They don't suddenly break out into war with a neighbour because of the price of cheese. Why would Europe do it if we left the EU?

FishFish

thekickingmule wrote:

One thing I thought of the other day, South America isn't unified in any way, yet they all get along and trade with each other fine. They don't suddenly break out into war with a neighbour because of the price of cheese. Why would Europe do it if we left the EU?

Look to your history, Venezuela a basket case with a very volatile economy. Chile and others including Venezuela with serious human rights issues, GDP problems, region dominated by USA. Brazilian isolationism..you are right; South America is not unified in any way, neither the Asean countries, ECOWAS no better than Europe other than in work permit restrictions, NAFTA ???

The only case for economic integration is competitive advantage over the other regions within South Asia, China, US and the BRICS - everything works perfectly well there but the dominant issue in peoples minds which does not work well in Europe is immigration which is nothing to do with the economic alliance and nothing to do with the last war.

thekickingmule

FishFish wrote:

thekickingmule wrote:

One thing I thought of the other day, South America isn't unified in any way, yet they all get along and trade with each other fine. They don't suddenly break out into war with a neighbour because of the price of cheese. Why would Europe do it if we left the EU?

Look to your history, Venezuela a basket case with a very volatile economy. Chile and others including Venezuela with serious human rights issues, GDP problems, region dominated by USA. Brazilian isolationism..you are right; South America is not unified in any way, neither the Asean countries, ECOWAS no better than Europe other than in work permit restrictions, NAFTA ???

Yes, but they haven't got to war with each other. Yes they're run terribly badly, but that's due to their history.
One issue I have, is that people wanting to stay in the EU seem to believe that the second we leave, we'll be made slaves to the state. We'll lose all human rights and live like the poorest people on the planet. Children will lay dead on the streets from malnutrition and the beatings from teachers.... This won't happen. Ever. We also won't turn back to our conquering days and set out to reclaim the Empire. Believe it or not, we're actually quite decent citizens, and we don't like war (remember the marches against Iraq back in the early 2000's?). Why would this change if we left?

Briggo

Slightly over the top exaggerations of what people believe.

Look at the markets, the pound is dropping in value, the FTSE is dropping quite dramatically because investors don't foresee a UK outside of the EU as a good one.

Granted we may over time claw that confidence back, however is it worth it?

People need to look at the good and the bad things that the EU brings and look at it as a whole picture. People are also forgetting the extra things Cameron negotiated (and yes there could have been more but you dont get 100% of what you want in a democracy, its called compromise) as part of a slightly reformed EU - no further political intergration on our behalf, immigrants can't just claim certain benefits straight away and so on.

I was watching this piece on BBC1 News last night about Michael Gove and his families history and how they're so against the EU. Why? Because his father fishing company went out of business.

Right, so we'll vote to leave and lose all of the benefits of EU because a single company went out of business or the fishing industry isn't quite what it once was for the UK (is that such a bad thing - over fishing?). Yes the EU may have had a hand in that however again look at the whole picture of what companies are thriving because we're in the EU and so on.

pblakeney

Briggo wrote:

Right, so we'll vote to leave and lose all of the benefits of EU because a single company went out of business or the fishing industry isn't quite what it once was for the UK (is that such a bad thing - over fishing?)

Tangent alert! Only a query.
Isn't the over fishing enhanced by other Country's fleets (Spanish?) entering what used to be our territorial waters?

Briggo

Maybe, however what's that got to do with it?

pblakeney

Briggo wrote:

Maybe, however what's that got to do with it?

If we were not in the EU, there wouldn't be Spanish fleets .
Less fishermen = more fish. No?

veronese68

I've just come to look at this thread to reassure myself, some people are beginning to sound like the UK version of Trump supporters. Last night my 17 year old son said "If we vote to leave the oldies will have really screwed things up for my generation"

rockmonkeysc

There's no guarantees for anything if we leave. We might be able to negotiate a similar trade deal but it will involve other compromises, possibly something like allowing some immigration or paying subsidies to EU.
We aren't going to get the trade deal we need for free.

wilberforce

Veronese68 wrote:

Last night my 17 year old son said "If we vote to leave the oldies will have really screwed things up for my generation"

Sounds very similar to my 19 year old who in a similar vein asked why anyone over 60 should be allowed to vote ...........

The Rookie

PBlakeney wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The UK government could have taken action and introduced an import duty on the cheap Chinese steel but chose not to. If the UK government didn't take action then why should the EU?

IIRC, David Cameron was the ring leader that stopped the EU adding tariffs when they wanted to.

Yep. Didn't want to upset the Chinese but perfectly happy to allow them to destroy our steel industry.
I've read some pretty harsh criticism of Tata for selling or closing steel works but to be fair to them, they can't keep loosing £1m a day because the Chinese are dumping surplus steel in to the UK at unsustainable prices. Tata have done a great job of saving Jaguar and Landrover and growing both businesses massively and creating loads of British jobs and most importantly, constantly beating BMW. Audi and Mercedes in magazine road tests.

Yup.
So the person doing the most damage to this Country is the leader? One could become cynical.

Of course JLR aren't benefiting in any way from the cheaper steel imports.........

ballysmate

The Rookie wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The UK government could have taken action and introduced an import duty on the cheap Chinese steel but chose not to. If the UK government didn't take action then why should the EU?

IIRC, David Cameron was the ring leader that stopped the EU adding tariffs when they wanted to.

Yep. Didn't want to upset the Chinese but perfectly happy to allow them to destroy our steel industry.
I've read some pretty harsh criticism of Tata for selling or closing steel works but to be fair to them, they can't keep loosing £1m a day because the Chinese are dumping surplus steel in to the UK at unsustainable prices. Tata have done a great job of saving Jaguar and Landrover and growing both businesses massively and creating loads of British jobs and most importantly, constantly beating BMW. Audi and Mercedes in magazine road tests.

Yup.
So the person doing the most damage to this Country is the leader? One could become cynical.

Of course JLR aren't benefiting in any way from the cheaper steel imports.........

viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13030866&p=19840764&hilit=tariffs#p19840764

Discussed at length by your roadie cousins.

thekickingmule

Wilberforce wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Last night my 17 year old son said "If we vote to leave the oldies will have really screwed things up for my generation"

Sounds very similar to my 19 year old who in a similar vein asked why anyone over 60 should be allowed to vote ...........

It bothers me that your sons think that. They know no better than the over 60's. Their generation are certainly NOT the fountain of knowledge (and having lived through my teens and 20's, I can vouch for that as I'm sure you all can too!)

pblakeney

thekickingmule wrote:

Wilberforce wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Last night my 17 year old son said "If we vote to leave the oldies will have really screwed things up for my generation"

Sounds very similar to my 19 year old who in a similar vein asked why anyone over 60 should be allowed to vote ...........

It bothers me that your sons think that. They know no better than the over 60's. Their generation are certainly NOT the fountain of knowledge (and having lived through my teens and 20's, I can vouch for that as I'm sure you all can too!)

Nonsense!
Every teenager knows that they know everything.

veronese68

PBlakeney wrote:

thekickingmule wrote:

Wilberforce wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Last night my 17 year old son said "If we vote to leave the oldies will have really screwed things up for my generation"

Sounds very similar to my 19 year old who in a similar vein asked why anyone over 60 should be allowed to vote ...........

It bothers me that your sons think that. They know no better than the over 60's. Their generation are certainly NOT the fountain of knowledge (and having lived through my teens and 20's, I can vouch for that as I'm sure you all can too!)

Nonsense!
Every teenager knows that they know everything.

What Blakey said.
I was talking to my optician (a man in his 50s) and he was moaning about the same thing. This will have a far bigger impact on the young than it will on him. He thought even he shouldn't even be allowed to vote as he will retire before long so it has a lesser impact on him.
When my son finally strings a sentence together it's quite surprising how much he does know on the subject. He was frustrated that people don't see that the country needs a certain amount of immigration to boost the economy in what would otherwise be a more rapidly ageing population. We need to ship in young workers to pay for our old age. It appears he does think about more than just girls and music.

The Rookie

Maybe he just fancies Eastern European girls......

pblakeney

Veronese68 wrote:

We need to ship in young workers to pay for our old age. It appears he does think about more than just girls and music.

Obviously.
He could make an effort to increase the population otherwise.

wilberforce

thekickingmule wrote:

Wilberforce wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Last night my 17 year old son said "If we vote to leave the oldies will have really screwed things up for my generation"

Sounds very similar to my 19 year old who in a similar vein asked why anyone over 60 should be allowed to vote ...........

It bothers me that your sons think that. They know no better than the over 60's. Their generation are certainly NOT the fountain of knowledge (and having lived through my teens and 20's, I can vouch for that as I'm sure you all can too!)

TKM I am not suggesting my son knows better than our dear OAPs, but he is probably more clued up on this issue than most of his age as he is currently at uni and when not in a drunken stupor, is studying economics.

His logic is the OAPs won't be around long enough to actually see us exit and so why should they be allowed to vote that way .....

thekickingmule

Yes, but over 60!? According to your sons logic, someone that turns 61 on the 22nd June cannot vote, even though they may live another 30 years, longer than your son's been alive, claiming state pensions, personal pensions, health care and other fundings, but they shouldn't be allowed to say how that money is collected and used?

pblakeney

Devil's advocate.
Anyone voting on the 23rd could be killed in an accident on the 24th. What's the point.

Thewaylander

We are doomed!! doomed I tell you!!

veronese68

I've just seen the amount of tea, coffee and sugar in the locked cupboard at work. There's enough in there to sink a battleship, I think they are expecting major supply problems come Friday if we vote out.