EU Referendum (Serious...ish)

mamba80

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I still haven't seen a good argument to leave the EU. It just seems to be based on getting control of the country back to the British government (who wants to give those idiots more power?) stopping immigration (I don't see it being a problem) and the ridiculous argument of "my grandfather didn't fight two world wars single handed to let the EU control Britain"

you ll be looking for a very long time

i ve yet to find any OUT er who can tell me what regs and laws the EU has enforced on the UK that is of any detriment to us.....

rockmonkeysc

They've created more laws to improve the rights of British workers than the British government have.
Apparently they banned bent bananas.

JGTR

There is no need for a referendum to blame the EU for anything, would have been just as easy to do that if we were just staying in and there was no referendum. Have a think about that...

True - proving my point that the whole EU thing is bollocks. The only arguments I hear for leaving the EU are based on blaiming the EU for OUR problems, problems which will still be there whether we stay or leave the EU, although most Brexit supported seem to believe leaving the EU will magically sort out all our problems.

thekickingmule

mamba80 wrote:

i ve yet to find any OUT er who can tell me what regs and laws the EU has enforced on the UK that is of any detriment to us.....

There's lots of rules and regulations that suppress the UK from performing differently. We have to restrain ourselves, which is what Brexit are claiming we could exceed at. Don't just assume that every single law that comes out of the EU benefits us, as that's just as ridiculous way to look at it as you think leaving the EU is! Remember the 'agreement' that DC set out with the EU a couple of months ago? Look into that with more detail, and you'll find that we got nothing at all from that deal. The EU have much more control on us than you realise.

I believe it was a Spanish MP or something that has asked the EU to change its way of working. To drop the totalitarian state that it's striving for and to go back to allowing fair trade, free movement and some simple laws and rules to follow. The United States of Europe is a terrible idea, and it will just create more right wing fascist movements spring up, and the EU will collapse in a much messier way than it could. I completely agree with the Spanish bloke.

JGTR

Cool, so we're all in agreement, the Spanish bloke or something must be right, let's leave Europe.

mamba80

thekickingmule wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

i ve yet to find any OUT er who can tell me what regs and laws the EU has enforced on the UK that is of any detriment to us.....

There's lots of rules and regulations that suppress the UK from performing differently. We have to restrain ourselves, which is what Brexit are claiming we could exceed at. Don't just assume that every single law that comes out of the EU benefits us, as that's just as ridiculous way to look at it as you think leaving the EU is! Remember the 'agreement' that DC set out with the EU a couple of months ago? Look into that with more detail, and you'll find that we got nothing at all from that deal. The EU have much more control on us than you realise.

what laws and regs? its easy to trot out "they ve a lot more control than you think" but i look at the decision to sell forestry comm land (later withdrawn, what would have done to the price of our much loved trail centres?), tuition fee's, a host of austerity cuts... in the things that matter to most folk, the uk still has plenty of power to exercise inc going to war!!
We ve signed up to a "club" and have agreed to abide by the rules and on many of those so called rules, we ve got opt outs and veto's
but as any continued access to single market will mean we ll have to sign up to free movement of people, so i really do not see any benefit to leaving, just negatives.

veronese68

The EU isn't perfect, but I'm convinced it's better than the alternatives.

core00

RockmonkeySC wrote:

JGTR wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

bompington wrote:

- try asking your GP who their employer is?

I will do that. I'll make an appointment first thing tomorrow to see her then in three or four weeks time I'll be able to ask her.

F'n immigrants

How did you know my GP is an immigrant? She does am excellent job given the conditions our government has imposed on her and her colleagues.
On the other hand though. She came over here, took our jobs and stole our women. Send her back where she came from.

Really? I didn't know falling inlove with an immigrant is part of this Lol, stole people's job, I hear this a lot? I'm from the Philippines but I'm now a citizen woah I stole your job my bad, LOL! Most professionals from another country are hired directly because they have more knowledge and qualifications than what you think and some of them works harder than the others.

IMO i don't think leaving or staying will fix whatever the issue is.

Stevo_666

I think you took Rockmonkeys post a bit too seriously...

core00

Stevo 666 wrote:

I think you took Rockmonkeys post a bit too seriously...

Haha the title says "Serious..ish" so :P and yeah for some people that's serious. Go to another country and find a job there and hear the same shit "you stole our job".. but ofc you probably won't hear that because some of them know why other people are working in another country. :twisted:

Oh don't forget "Muslims are planning to take over the UK", problem is not just the EU they pretty much handed their power to others and now they are being step on.

JGTR

Stevo 666 wrote:

I think you took Rockmonkeys post a bit too seriously...

Extremely qualified.....just lacking experience in sarcasm.

Briggo

I see the latest polls show a slight lead for the leave crowd, I'd love to know who they ask on these random polls.

JGTR

Briggo wrote:

I see the latest polls show a slight lead for the leave crowd, I'd love to know who they ask on these random polls.

Lol the ones I saw said the opposite

The Rookie

The trouble is that the Margin for error is at least 2% on each side, so a dead heat could be a dead heat or a 4% win for one side or the other, a 1% lead for one side could be a 3% win for the other.

Plus the unsures are still a big percentage.

That's the declared margin of error, look back to the last general election and how wrong were the polls?

surrey_commuter

as this thread is more about conspiracy theories could I put it out there that old-Etonian Cameron is getting a helping hand from his mates who own the polling companies by saying Brexit are ahead, so helping his campaign to scare his potential voters to the polls.

The Rookie

But why would Old Etonian Cameron want to stay in, oh yes its just to helps his mates with all those big companies which will all do better by staying in........

surrey_commuter

I am confident that old Etonian Dave has run such a lack lustre campaign because he and his other Etonian chums will swill down some champers then just announce the result they want without even opening the ballot boxes

thekickingmule

JGTR wrote:

Cool, so we're all in agreement, the Spanish bloke or something must be right, let's leave Europe.

Err... the Spanish bloke never said to leave the EU...

mamba80 wrote:

what laws and regs? its easy to trot out "they ve a lot more control than you think" but i look at the decision to sell forestry comm land (later withdrawn, what would have done to the price of our much loved trail centres?), tuition fee's, a host of austerity cuts... in the things that matter to most folk, the uk still has plenty of power to exercise inc going to war!!
We ve signed up to a "club" and have agreed to abide by the rules and on many of those so called rules, we ve got opt outs and veto's
but as any continued access to single market will mean we ll have to sign up to free movement of people, so i really do not see any benefit to leaving, just negatives.

The free movement is a double edged sword. It's great for people who temporarily move, that's kind of the point of it, but people tend to settle, and more and more come to the UK. The skilled labour isn't a problem, the bloke who simply can't get a job in Poland so comes here because his mate says it's amazing, not so good.
The fishing quota that's placed on us. We're an island nation, and get the same quota as much larger countries. We traditionally fished and sold our stock to the EU, now the EU stops us from monopolising it.
We had to stop buying products from the commonwealth, instead it all came via the EU. Butter quadrupled in price when we joined as we used to buy it direct from New Zealand, now it's via the EU.
The CAP, we get £2.5bn from this fund a year, yet we pay in £5bn.

There's lots. Just because you haven't done any research into this, doesn't mean they're not there. Look, and you shall find. As Veronese68 said, the EU isn't perfect, is the alternative better? I really don't know. The Spanish MP was highlighting this, it isn't perfect, the EU needs to change it's plans.

rockmonkeysc

If we leave the EU will we then be out of Eurovision?
Could swing the vote for a lot of people.

veronese68

RockmonkeySC wrote:

If we leave the EU will we then be out of Eurovision?
Could swing the vote for a lot of people.

That would make more sense than a lot of the arguments to leave that I've heard. But, unfortunately, even Australia seem to be part of Eurovision.

daniel_b

This thread gives me hope, as well as speaking to half a dozen work colleagues yesterday, who were all voting to stay in.
General press reports and facebook posts from random people who I kind of know, also filled me with concern.

The opinion polls currently scare me, but hopefully that will get the people who might not have voted to get off their @rses and do the decent thing.

FishFish

The freedom of movement was addressed by the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) a multi lingual multi state organisation of countries in differing states of development and a principle common currency that not everyone uses (sound familiar). Members of an ECOWAS nation state have full freedom of movement in the region. The clever thing they did was to insist upon work visas / work permits rather than the right to employment on the basis of ECOWAS citizenship. I always thought that was a more intelligent and pragmatic approach than from the EU.

mamba80

thekickingmule wrote:

JGTR wrote:

Cool, so we're all in agreement, the Spanish bloke or something must be right, let's leave Europe.

Err... the Spanish bloke never said to leave the EU...

mamba80 wrote:

what laws and regs? its easy to trot out "they ve a lot more control than you think" but i look at the decision to sell forestry comm land (later withdrawn, what would have done to the price of our much loved trail centres?), tuition fee's, a host of austerity cuts... in the things that matter to most folk, the uk still has plenty of power to exercise inc going to war!!
We ve signed up to a "club" and have agreed to abide by the rules and on many of those so called rules, we ve got opt outs and veto's
but as any continued access to single market will mean we ll have to sign up to free movement of people, so i really do not see any benefit to leaving, just negatives.

The free movement is a double edged sword. It's great for people who temporarily move, that's kind of the point of it, but people tend to settle, and more and more come to the UK. The skilled labour isn't a problem, the bloke who simply can't get a job in Poland so comes here because his mate says it's amazing, not so good.
The fishing quota that's placed on us. We're an island nation, and get the same quota as much larger countries. We traditionally fished and sold our stock to the EU, now the EU stops us from monopolising it.
We had to stop buying products from the commonwealth, instead it all came via the EU. Butter quadrupled in price when we joined as we used to buy it direct from New Zealand, now it's via the EU.
The CAP, we get £2.5bn from this fund a year, yet we pay in £5bn.

There's lots. Just because you haven't done any research into this, doesn't mean they're not there. Look, and you shall find. As Veronese68 said, the EU isn't perfect, is the alternative better? I really don't know. The Spanish MP was highlighting this, it isn't perfect, the EU needs to change it's plans.

we negotiated away our quota, we didnt have too, though the stupidity of throwing over quota fish back was just crazy but of course was introduced because fisherman were conning the system

Anchor butter is made by Arla in the UK and is cheap as chips, i dont know what happened in 1973 though.

the movement of people needs to be replaced with movement of labour and the uk needs a contributory benefits system so your Polish example cannot claim any Housing or dole money, as he hasnt contributed, UK gov could introduce that now, just as most eu countries do already, i would get very little if i turned up in Poland or Spain with no job or having paid in nothing, here you get everything a UK citizen gets ie the lot.

thing is, before i cast my vote, i looked for these rules and regs that many say economically strangles the UK etc and i cant find so many.

FishFish

mamba80 wrote:

thekickingmule wrote:

JGTR wrote:

Cool, so we're all in agreement, the Spanish bloke or something must be right, let's leave Europe.

Err... the Spanish bloke never said to leave the EU...

mamba80 wrote:

i would get very little if i turned up in Poland or Spain with no job or having paid in nothing, here you get everything a UK citizen gets ie the lot.

No you would not get everything - it is means tested.

welshkev

FishFish wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

thekickingmule wrote:

JGTR wrote:

Cool, so we're all in agreement, the Spanish bloke or something must be right, let's leave Europe.

Err... the Spanish bloke never said to leave the EU...

mamba80 wrote:

i would get very little if i turned up in Poland or Spain with no job or having paid in nothing, here you get everything a UK citizen gets ie the lot.

No you would not get everything - it is means tested.

can you show me evidence that immigrants/migrants get "the lot" because i'd read they receive something like £30 a week. and that was to pay for food, lodging etc

btw, i'm still on the fence, but i'm leaning more towards staying

The Rookie

EU migrants under EU law were entitled to the same benefits a UK citizen would get in the same circumstances, some of that has been changed now as part of the renegotiation (for example a Pole with a child resident in Poland no longer gets the same tax credits as for a UK resident child). the same means testing applies as does the same paying in criteria for a Pension.

This is completely different to non EU migrants yet the out campaigners do like to conflate the two. We have no less control of our borders with respect to non EU migrants now than we would outside the EU, so the 'illegals' coming from France would still create the same issue, arguably we would have less clout with the French to get them to take action to help us prevent them getting in.

thekickingmule

Interesting video of MP Sarah Wollaston who has changed sides from Leave to Remain. Goes to show that some people haven't yet made their minds.

I think she makes a really good case for both sides, to stop the BS, stop the name calling, the lies, the fearmongering and deceitful stories. People can genuinely be persuaded to change their minds, so start giving us facts about what you believe to happen. I hope both sides of the arguement understand this.

The point about £100mil being spent on the NHS each week was definitely a mistake of the Leave party. They shouldn't be using figures, as their main point is "We don't know what will happen". That figure was plucked out the air to win over voters, but I believe they've lost more than they could have gained if they'd just said "We'll have a few million more a week to spend on services like the NHS, Policing and Fire brigades", this would have been much more realistic, not placing an unachievable figure, and would have convinced more people.

veronese68

thekickingmule wrote:

...both sides, to stop the BS, stop the name calling, the lies, the fearmongering and deceitful stories. People can genuinely be persuaded to change their minds, so start giving us facts about what you believe to happen. I hope both sides of the arguement understand this.

If only this could happen in politics as a whole.

Briggo

thekickingmule wrote:

I think she makes a really good case for both sides, to stop the BS, stop the name calling, the lies, the fearmongering and deceitful stories. People can genuinely be persuaded to change their minds, so start giving us facts about what you believe to happen. I hope both sides of the arguement understand this.

Hold on if it's what people believe will happen how is it a fact or a lie?

No one knows what's happen so nothing is a lie or a fact.

It's just a case of do we risk what we have now for something that may or may not be better? Is the grass going to be greener?

veronese68

Briggo wrote:

Hold on if it's what people believe will happen how is it a fact or a lie?

I think it was just the figure of £350 million a week that could then be used for the NHS that she was calling a lie. I'm not sure why they keep trotting it out it's been comprehensively disproved, yet they keep saying it.