EU Referendum (Serious...ish)

thekickingmule

So with just shy of 3 weeks to the big EU referendum, I wondered what our fellow crudders views were.

Try to keep it seriousish, I'm genuinely interested to hear peoples views are without people being worried about a backlash from others (it's amazing how many people on Facebook are calling people voting to Leave idiots, retards and other things. That won't help them change their mind!)

So, my view is that I'm still not sure. I change my mind a little bit every now and then. I've mostly been leaning toward the Leave side, as I like the thought of taking a challenge and seeing what happens. Something I keep noticing is that Remain people are saying that the EU might break up in 20/30/40 years if we leave, which would be quicker than if we stay in. Well if it's going to break up anyway, is it not better to abandon a sinking ship?

So, share your views, answer others, be civil and let's see what happens.

wilberforce

Does anyone really know what is the likely outcome if we were to leave, or on the other hand, what will happen in the next 10 or 20 years if we vote to remain - seems to me that both sides are just going through the motions of marketing and seeking the attention grabbing headlines in their favour.

Can you tell I am not convinced either way ............

JGTR

Oh dear, I was waiting for an EU in/out post. Every thread I've seen so far has descended into name calling and abusive posts. I'm out!

Well I'm actually in - personally I think we'd be mad to leave the EU and it would be a significant backwards step, we should work together to create a better world and if that means that we spend some of our great wealth supporting other countries and helping people make a better life for themselves then fine by me.

People are deluded I they think immigration will reduce and we'd be safe from money grabbing fat cats if we leave the EU - we leave ourselves wide open for government and those in charge to take advantage and the gap between the rich and poor would get even bigger.

FishFish

Wilberforce wrote:

Does anyone really know what is the likely outcome if we were to leave, or on the other hand, what will happen in the next 10 or 20 years if we vote to remain - seems to me that both sides are just going through the motions of marketing and seeking the attention grabbing headlines in their favour.

Can you tell I am not convinced either way ............

Excellent point and most people are making the assumption that Germany and France will not change their positions and are basing their voting choice on the party involved, personalities and immigration.

bg13

I live in France, i'm voting to stay in. Only because the way things are at the moment is working ok with me. And if you lot over there vote 'out' then you may have to put up with me returning to the UK! Lock up your daughters etc!

veronese68

I don't think anybody knows for sure which will be for the best long term. Short term it can only be a bad thing as far as I can see. The uncertainty of a vote to leave will cause a significant drop in investment until people know how things are going to pan out.
Personally I think we should stay. We sell a huge amount into Europe including Switzerland and Norway. Shipping within the EC is far easier and cheaper. To have a preferential trade agreement with the EU we would have to pay in anyway, apparently the Norwegians pay almost as much per head as we do by the time you take into account all the money going in and out. Yet they don't get as good a deal as we do. Plus do you really trust our government? I believe the EU has limited some things on workers rights and civil liberties. I was listening to Radio 4 the other day and there was someone from a body representing small businesses. They said some of their members that objected to the EU did so because of things like working hours legislation and limits on pesticides. Both of those restrictions are in the interests of the general public. A lot of what the EU does is to our benefit, we just don't see it.
The press are not exactly impartial about this, the press is largely controlled by rich right wing types. Murdoch once said the reason he didn't like the EU was that he could control Downing Street but he has no control over the EU. Boris used to be pro EU, I think he only changed as he saw an opportunity to get the top job. I don't believe much of what he says any more. Apparently he was recently described as being like Donald Trump with a thesaurus.
I could go on but doubt anyone has read all that and I should really do some work.

veronese68

Not managed to read it all yet but this looks reasonable to me, and far better put.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/ ... eferendum/

Briggo

Good to see plenty of people with sense voting to remain.

Stevo_666

Veronese68 wrote:

Not managed to read it all yet but this looks reasonable to me, and far better put.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/ ... eferendum/

That is not a million miles from my overall view on this. I'm in and my postal vote has already gone back.

rockmonkeysc

If we leave the EU, my Korean (south) employer will be closing UK operations to expand in Poland and stay within the EU.
I can't imagine they will be the only big employer to do this.
I'm voting remain

JGTR

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

Briggo

Ah yes public services, where we expect someone to do something for us. But we don't want to pay too much in the way of tax to pay for it.

Wonder why we got into so much debt?

Who knows.

Stevo_666

JGTR wrote:

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

:roll:

Left wing paranoia?

FishFish

RockmonkeySC wrote:

If we leave the EU, my Korean (south) employer will be closing UK operations to expand in Poland and stay within the EU.
I can't imagine they will be the only big employer to do this.
I'm voting remain

...bet they don't. Factor in the original reason for coming to the UK - there were some advantages in terms of Development Zone concessions but the real reason was that the senior management could play golf on British courses. Location decisions are rarely made with any sense of rationality.

rockmonkeysc

FishFish wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

If we leave the EU, my Korean (south) employer will be closing UK operations to expand in Poland and stay within the EU.
I can't imagine they will be the only big employer to do this.
I'm voting remain

...bet they don't. Factor in the original reason for coming to the UK - there were some advantages in terms of Development Zone concessions but the real reason was that the senior management could play golf on British courses. Location decisions are rarely made with any sense of rationality.

They UK factory is making a steady million pound a year loss, they're looking for the excuse to close anyway. The Korean company bought the UK business to get our technology and patients.
The UK plant is the main technical centre, we're already seeing the higher tech development projects moving to Germany.
I'd be extremely surprised if I have a job if we leave the EU.

thekickingmule

RockmonkeySC wrote:

FishFish wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

If we leave the EU, my Korean (south) employer will be closing UK operations to expand in Poland and stay within the EU.
I can't imagine they will be the only big employer to do this.
I'm voting remain

...bet they don't. Factor in the original reason for coming to the UK - there were some advantages in terms of Development Zone concessions but the real reason was that the senior management could play golf on British courses. Location decisions are rarely made with any sense of rationality.

They UK factory is making a steady million pound a year loss, they're looking for the excuse to close anyway. The Korean company bought the UK business to get our technology and patients.
The UK plant is the main technical centre, we're already seeing the higher tech development projects moving to Germany.
I'd be extremely surprised if I have a job if we leave the EU.

Based on that rationale, you won't have a job if we stay in the EU either as you'll still be making a loss.

thekickingmule

JGTR wrote:

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

So you're more than happy to have people making huge laws and rules that we have to abide by, but aren't voted in at all, however the 'crooks and cronies' that we vote in every 4 years are the problem?

Stevo_666

thekickingmule wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

FishFish wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

If we leave the EU, my Korean (south) employer will be closing UK operations to expand in Poland and stay within the EU.
I can't imagine they will be the only big employer to do this.
I'm voting remain

...bet they don't. Factor in the original reason for coming to the UK - there were some advantages in terms of Development Zone concessions but the real reason was that the senior management could play golf on British courses. Location decisions are rarely made with any sense of rationality.

They UK factory is making a steady million pound a year loss, they're looking for the excuse to close anyway. The Korean company bought the UK business to get our technology and patients.
The UK plant is the main technical centre, we're already seeing the higher tech development projects moving to Germany.
I'd be extremely surprised if I have a job if we leave the EU.

Based on that rationale, you won't have a job if we stay in the EU either as you'll still be making a loss.

Relocating is easier said than done.

I've been coordination our Groups BREXIT contingency and we have no plans to relocate anything. Nor have we seen any major multinationals state that they will do a full scale relocation. Some banks have said they will move certain functions to allow them to retain access under the 'passprting rules' in financial services though.

That said, I am still 'in' as mentioned above. Unrestricted access to the world's largest trading block is pretty important to our prosperity.

JGTR

thekickingmule wrote:

JGTR wrote:

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

So you're more than happy to have people making huge laws and rules that we have to abide by, but aren't voted in at all, however the 'crooks and cronies' that we vote in every 4 years are the problem?

Exactly, it's not the immigrants or the EU that are ruining our NHS, causing a housing shortage, filling up our schools and what ever else people feel like blaming them for its our own government. While we all argue about the EU the NHS crisis is worsening, Fire Service response times are the longest they have ever been and increasing, schools are slowly being privatised etc etc and we're doing nothing about it.

What huge laws and rules?? The bendy banana rule and no turbo powered hair driers? Who gives a toss. Working time directive - great, block exemption - great, environmental laws - great, vehicle emission laws - great - thank you very much Europe.

Just ask yourself if we leave Europe will the NHS be fixed, will they build more schools, will the housing crisis no longer exist - I very much doubt it.

bompington

JGTR wrote:

Just ask yourself if we leave Europe will the NHS be fixed, will they build more schools, will the housing crisis no longer exist - I very much doubt it.

Absolutely. It's not the EU's fault we don't all have free unicorns, it's those Tory bastards who refuse to give them to us.

bompington

PS where does this idea come from that the NHS is only guaranteed by the EU? The vast majority of European countries have part-privatised systems, in most cases better than ours.
Oh, hang on a minute - try asking your GP who their employer is?

Stevo_666

bompington wrote:

JGTR wrote:

Just ask yourself if we leave Europe will the NHS be fixed, will they build more schools, will the housing crisis no longer exist - I very much doubt it.

Absolutely. It's not the EU's fault we don't all have free unicorns, it's those Tory bastards who refuse to give them to us.

The old 'its all the evil tories' line. There's a thread in Cake Stop that addresses just this sort of delusional thinking.

JGTR

Stevo 666 wrote:

bompington wrote:

JGTR wrote:

Just ask yourself if we leave Europe will the NHS be fixed, will they build more schools, will the housing crisis no longer exist - I very much doubt it.

Absolutely. It's not the EU's fault we don't all have free unicorns, it's those Tory bastards who refuse to give them to us.

The old 'its all the evil tories' line. There's a thread in Cake Stop that addresses just this sort of delusional thinking.

No more delusional than the arguments for leaving the EU.

But you've missed my point entirely, we don't need to be out of the EU to sort out the problems which are apparently caused by being in the EU.

rockmonkeysc

bompington wrote:

- try asking your GP who their employer is?

I will do that. I'll make an appointment first thing tomorrow to see her then in three or four weeks time I'll be able to ask her.

JGTR

RockmonkeySC wrote:

bompington wrote:

- try asking your GP who their employer is?

I will do that. I'll make an appointment first thing tomorrow to see her then in three or four weeks time I'll be able to ask her.

F'n immigrants

Stevo_666

JGTR wrote:

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

This was your first post in this thread.

Great smokescreen, which will be over in less than 3 weeks time.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

JGTR wrote:

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

This was your first post in this thread.

Great smokescreen, which will be over in less than 3 weeks time.

well, being cynical, its likely DC decided to go pro, after he thought the INs would win and Boris went OUT because he thinks they ll win, these guys want power and for the losers, they ll be out on their ear.

As for EU/NHS migration, i was fixed up yesterday by an ooh Polish dentist, i asked her why she works in UK, her reply was "its easy to travel and work here"
if we leave, and introduce this points system, she ll find it not not so easy, meaning she ll either stay where she is or go to another eu country, maybe even move to aus, who knows but freedom of movement benefits us too.

JGTR

Stevo 666 wrote:

JGTR wrote:

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

This was your first post in this thread.

Great smokescreen, which will be over in less than 3 weeks time.

Lol you seriously have not been paying attention for the last few years.

The referendum also creates a platform to apportion blame for our countries problems which I'm sure will last longer than 3 weeks.

rockmonkeysc

JGTR wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

bompington wrote:

- try asking your GP who their employer is?

I will do that. I'll make an appointment first thing tomorrow to see her then in three or four weeks time I'll be able to ask her.

F'n immigrants

How did you know my GP is an immigrant? She does am excellent job given the conditions our government has imposed on her and her colleagues.
On the other hand though. She came over here, took our jobs and stole our women. Send her back where she came from.

Stevo_666

JGTR wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

JGTR wrote:

The Referendum is just a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real crooks that are ruining this country and to make us feel like we have a say in how this country is run when in fact we are all being royally shafted by the Tory government who are ruining our country in preparation for mass privatisation.

Why do you think Cameron is so pro EU? While we are all discussing the EU him and his cronies are busy at work dismantling any public service they can get their hands on and after we vote to stay in (which will happen) we'll still be blaming the immigrants instead of those Tory scumbags.

This was your first post in this thread.

Great smokescreen, which will be over in less than 3 weeks time.

Lol you seriously have not been paying attention for the last few years.

The referendum also creates a platform to apportion blame for our countries problems which I'm sure will last longer than 3 weeks.

I have been paying attention, I just don't buy the leftiebollox theories that this is some sort of excuse or there is some shady privatisation conspiracy.

There is no need for a referendum to blame the EU for anything, would have been just as easy to do that if we were just staying in and there was no referendum. Have a think about that...

rockmonkeysc

I still haven't seen a good argument to leave the EU. It just seems to be based on getting control of the country back to the British government (who wants to give those idiots more power?) stopping immigration (I don't see it being a problem) and the ridiculous argument of "my grandfather didn't fight two world wars single handed to let the EU control Britain"