Giro 16 - Stage 20 ***Spoilers***

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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    If a rider goes down right in front of you no amount of skill will save you.

    tell that to Sagan.

    tumblr_o5gsax9u7l1swtjjuo1_500.gif
    That's single file, not a full peloton
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    nickice wrote:
    ld be right but Greg Lemond always felt that if you were good, you were good from the start. What is Chaves going to do to improve from now on? Of course you can become more tactically aware but he already had a whole team behind him so it's not as if he started riding for someone else. I'd be interested to see how, physiologically, you can improve in your mid-twenties.


    I agree that 26 is into your physical peak if you've been training efficiently from a fairly young age. What we don't know about Chavez is whether there are improvements he can make in his training, preparation, weight loss etc. Now he's established himself as a real contender for grand tours it might be that his team spend more time and money on him getting him just right - or of course it might be that he was already doing all he could do and this is the highpoint of his career.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • seanorawe
    seanorawe Posts: 950
    RichN95 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Italian press asking whether Nibali is greater than Pantani?

    I-think-not

    I'd say he is. As "exciting", certainly not.

    But his palmares dwarf Pantani.
    Nibali has never beaten an A lister though. Put him up against Contador, Froome or Quintana and he's nowhere. He's a bit like a boxer who keeps fighting bums.
    The David Haye of cycling
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  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Bit unfair to say Nibali has never beaten an A lister, he won the 2014 Tour by nearly 8 minutes, he was already ahead of the A listers before they crashed out and given how he performed in the rest of the race there must be a good chance he'd have held that.

    Contador over 2 minutes 30 back and even without crashes Froome would likely have at best been over 2 minutes back unless we are assuming he is now a Paris Roubaix contender.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • jam1e
    jam1e Posts: 1,068
    He did out do nibali on the cobbles last year so 2.5 minutes seems a stretch.
  • andytee87
    andytee87 Posts: 414
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    ld be right but Greg Lemond always felt that if you were good, you were good from the start. What is Chaves going to do to improve from now on? Of course you can become more tactically aware but he already had a whole team behind him so it's not as if he started riding for someone else. I'd be interested to see how, physiologically, you can improve in your mid-twenties.


    I agree that 26 is into your physical peak if you've been training efficiently from a fairly young age. What we don't know about Chavez is whether there are improvements he can make in his training, preparation, weight loss etc. Now he's established himself as a real contender for grand tours it might be that his team spend more time and money on him getting him just right - or of course it might be that he was already doing all he could do and this is the highpoint of his career.

    Also worth remembering that Chaves missed a whole season of racing after a crash in 2013, take a look at this interview http://www.alpsandes.com/posts/clinginquisition.com/2014/03/patience-and-emotional-recovery-and.html
    to get an idea what happened re surgery and recovery process, can see why he might be later than others to show his class, plus he was riding l'Avenir with Quintana as top Colombian. Maybe not one for TdF but winning GC at la Vuelta or Giro, yeh I can see that happening.

    First time OGE have had decent climbing support as well. Vuelta 2015, they had Ewan, Gerrans, Impey going for their own results. Fine, they had Ewan this time, but he was gone by the time it got hilly.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    andytee87 wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    ld be right but Greg Lemond always felt that if you were good, you were good from the start. What is Chaves going to do to improve from now on? Of course you can become more tactically aware but he already had a whole team behind him so it's not as if he started riding for someone else. I'd be interested to see how, physiologically, you can improve in your mid-twenties.


    I agree that 26 is into your physical peak if you've been training efficiently from a fairly young age. What we don't know about Chavez is whether there are improvements he can make in his training, preparation, weight loss etc. Now he's established himself as a real contender for grand tours it might be that his team spend more time and money on him getting him just right - or of course it might be that he was already doing all he could do and this is the highpoint of his career.

    Also worth remembering that Chaves missed a whole season of racing after a crash in 2013, take a look at this interview http://www.alpsandes.com/posts/clinginquisition.com/2014/03/patience-and-emotional-recovery-and.html
    to get an idea what happened re surgery and recovery process, can see why he might be later than others to show his class, plus he was riding l'Avenir with Quintana as top Colombian. Maybe not one for TdF but winning GC at la Vuelta or Giro, yeh I can see that happening.

    First time OGE have had decent climbing support as well. Vuelta 2015, they had Ewan, Gerrans, Impey going for their own results. Fine, they had Ewan this time, but he was gone by the time it got hilly.

    It's not so much that he's good now rather than the fact that people are talking about him as 'one for the future'.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    jam1e wrote:
    He did out do nibali on the cobbles last year so 2.5 minutes seems a stretch.


    Well a couple of minutes was pretty much the next group back, we'll never know for sure but par for the other GC contenders was two minutes plus back and some of them have shown more form on cobbles than Froome. I wouldn't say it's a stretch - not nailed on but most likely scenario - he could have lost less or even more.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • curium
    curium Posts: 815
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Great job by Astana... proper teamwork on the final climb... chapeau to Vino's French too
    Interesting that the interview was conducted in French given that everybody there spoke Italian and they were in Italy.
  • curium
    curium Posts: 815
    andrewjoseph wrote:
    after nibali being crap for 19 days, 'blood samples' are taken, he's given the all clear. "nothing wrong with you nibbles, it's all in your head' then he goes out and destroys the field. it usually takes days for blood results to come back.

    anyone else think the 'blood samples' are just an excuse for the needle marks in his arm?
    No. That's something your GP tells you so that you wont bother him before he's had time to review the results. Lab results are typically available the same day and almost always within 24 hours.
  • curium
    curium Posts: 815
    andrewjoseph wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    I'm assuming Nibali didn't go to his GP to get the blood samples so nothing odd about getting the results straight off...

    but it takes days to culture, examine, count etc. the only relatively instant check is haemoglobin, iron, red blood cells. At least it was when i was nursing.
    PCR, MALDI-TOF, etc. will give you a result a lot quicker.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    it was a good race that grew on me.

    no idea f he is clean or not...more likely not. who knows
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,312
    Chaves was unwell and apparently on antibiotics. Valverde was never going to go up the last few cols like a contender and challenge for the GC, SK had a fall that probably not only hurt but took the wind out of his sails and Nibali had an organised, strong team around him but most importantly, he had Scarponi.
    In that context, the deficit he made up wasn't unrealistic or unachievable.

    Can't we just give any rider the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise? Surely, this is the only way we can watch cycling and enjoy it. If I suspected every other rider of doping, I may as well go and play Tiddlywinks because I wouldn't enjoy the sport in the slightest.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Didn't know Chaves was ill
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    Pinno wrote:
    Chaves was unwell and apparently on antibiotics. Valverde was never going to go up the last few cols like a contender and challenge for the GC, SK had a fall that probably not only hurt but took the wind out of his sails and Nibali had an organised, strong team around him but most importantly, he had Scarponi.
    In that context, the deficit he made up wasn't unrealistic or unachievable.

    Can't we just give any rider the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise? Surely, this is the only way we can watch cycling and enjoy it. If I suspected every other rider of doping, I may as well go and play Tiddlywinks because I wouldn't enjoy the sport in the slightest.

    All this.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Chaves was unwell and apparently on antibiotics. Valverde was never going to go up the last few cols like a contender and challenge for the GC, SK had a fall that probably not only hurt but took the wind out of his sails and Nibali had an organised, strong team around him but most importantly, he had Scarponi.
    In that context, the deficit he made up wasn't unrealistic or unachievable.

    Can't we just give any rider the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise? Surely, this is the only way we can watch cycling and enjoy it. If I suspected every other rider of doping, I may as well go and play Tiddlywinks because I wouldn't enjoy the sport in the slightest.

    All this.

    Happy to give the benefit usually, but this transformation, akin to Aru's last year at the same time, leaves a sour taste.

    If it happens in the Tour in the final couple of stages with Aru then I will seriously call foul.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    Joelsim wrote:
    Happy to give the benefit usually

    :D
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Pinno wrote:
    he had Scarponi.
    That bastion of clean cycling........
  • andrewjoseph
    andrewjoseph Posts: 2,165
    thanks for the clarification on the blood results.

    i've always thought nibali was clean, but then he went to astana.

    my main concern was the total lack of form and sudden turn around.
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  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    andrewjoseph wrote:

    my main concern was the total lack of form and sudden turn around.

    What total lack of form and what dramatic turn around? They all looked knackered on the last two mountain stages and it was touch and go whether he was going to stay away on stage 20. Kruijswijk was pinned on the climb before he crashed on stage 19 and Nibali was always going to push on on that decent. Nibali won it on grinta, and I could see no Landis like turn around.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    According to Gazzetta, Nibali's dad told him to get shorter cranks than the 175 he was using... he did and he won the Giro... that's it... it's all in the cranks... :-)
    left the forum March 2023
  • manic_esso
    manic_esso Posts: 92
    That stage had as much credibility as the stuff coming out of the Leave and Remain campaigns
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    According to Gazzetta, Nibali's dad told him to get shorter cranks than the 175 he was using... he did and he won the Giro... that's it... it's all in the cranks... :-)


    I await the Joe Rogan vs Durianrider Youtube fight that will surely follow his announcement that he was on a Ketogenic diet...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    Naive, maybe - but I've never particularly had the impression Nibali has been doping over the last few years. He's shown too much inconsistency and frailty of form. I think the upturn in his form this Giro was when he realised that he'd have to go to the Tour and look silly there like he'd been doing all Giro if he didn't get his act together.
    As mentioned earlier, has he ever beaten an in form Froome or Contador (which is why I suspect he intended swerving the Tour this year as might not even have got a sniff of the podium)? His GC wins have come in their absence or bad luck.
    Besides, he's a bell-end. I suspect he was wetting the bed well into his teens. And his team is managed by a particularly unsavoury ex-rider who, like with this Giro, robbed millions of spectators a more satisfying winner (Olympic RR) by virtue of still being upright when others crumbled and fell by the wayside. But you can only be a champion if you stay on your bike and finish the race, right?
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,434
    Everyone condemning Nibali is able to reconcile this position with Landa being on Sky and Nibali's inability to beat the A listers including Froome?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Everyone condemning Nibali is able to reconcile this position with Landa being on Sky and Nibali's inability to beat the A listers including Froome?

    Yes. I personally don't think Froome dopes. And that's not because Brits don't dope as some clearly do.

    It doesn't follow that you have to dope to beat dopers these days, unlike 10-20 years ago.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    Joelsim wrote:

    Yes. I personally don't think Froome dopes. And that's not because Brits don't dope as some clearly do.

    .

    You think it is not for that reason, but it is. In Italy everybody thinks Froome dopes and Nibali is clean... In Spain... well in Spain nobody cares about doping
    left the forum March 2023
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:

    Yes. I personally don't think Froome dopes. And that's not because Brits don't dope as some clearly do.

    .

    You think it is not for that reason, but it is. In Italy everybody thinks Froome dopes and Nibali is clean... In Spain... well in Spain nobody cares about doping

    I know. But logically Froome's performances go with expectation i.e. he hangs on in the last week. Of course most people ignore that aspect.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    They don't care in Italy either Ugo.
    _
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    They don't care in Italy either Ugo.
    The Italian Federation cares and I would believe they have penalised more riders that than any other.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972

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