Giro 16 - Stage 20 ***Spoilers***

gweeds

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Nibali almost Landis-like in his improvement over two days there.

Maybe that's a bit too far, Landis did a solo stage, Nibali did a 4-5 Km ascent on his own... there is an analogy with Aru last year, that is quite clear. The Astana team did a great job, before he caught Kangaert they were about to catch him

I was being a little facetious. Only a little mind you.

I just can't take pleasure from an Astana win, or anything Vinokourov has a hand in.

andrewjoseph

after nibali being crap for 19 days, 'blood samples' are taken, he's given the all clear. "nothing wrong with you nibbles, it's all in your head' then he goes out and destroys the field. it usually takes days for blood results to come back.

anyone else think the 'blood samples' are just an excuse for the needle marks in his arm?

DeVlaeminck

I'm assuming Nibali didn't go to his GP to get the blood samples so nothing odd about getting the results straight off.

Is it possible these days for a rider to be doped mid race to turn a collapse into a resurrection without it showing up in the dope tests? I don't know if NIbali is on the sauce but I see no evidence for it - he isn't the only rider to suffer a collapse and then come good again.

Don't forget Nibali was the big favourite for this - what he has done in the last two days is nothing above his normal level. Chavez suffered a huge collapse making Nibali's renaissance seem ore dramatic but really putting 30 seconds into an ageing Valverde and a Uran who has turned out to be very much a second tier grand tour rider is not that spectacular - especially as some of the damage was done on the descent.

Come on we've had two days of the best grand tour racing in years and people haven't enjoyed it?

Feel sorry for Chavez but I suppose had it not been for yesterday's bad fortune for Kruijswick (sp?) he'd never have been in pink.

ugo.santalucia

Italian press asking whether Nibali is greater than Pantani?

I-think-not

iainf72

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Italian press asking whether Nibali is greater than Pantani?

I-think-not

I'd say he is. As "exciting", certainly not.

But his palmares dwarf Pantani.

deejay

andrewjoseph wrote:

after nibali being crap for 19 days, 'blood samples' are taken, he's given the all clear. "nothing wrong with you nibbles, it's all in your head' then he goes out and destroys the field. it usually takes days for blood results to come back.
il
anyone else think the 'blood samples' are just an excuse for the needle marks in his arm?

I rub my eyes until I realise this is not the Clinic. ?

EnacheV

clean people like Chaves gets tired, doped ones come in to form after 3 weeks
this Giro is the exact reminder why this sport is disgusting

Do you think that Chaves would fade if he would be on EPO and blood bags like the bidon thrower car hanger ?

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Italian press asking whether Nibali is greater than Pantani?

I-think-not

I'd say he is. As "exciting", certainly not.

But his palmares dwarf Pantani.

Nibali has never beaten an A lister though. Put him up against Contador, Froome or Quintana and he's nowhere. He's a bit like a boxer who keeps fighting bums.

rick_chasey

Gweeds wrote:

Nibali almost Landis-like in his improvement over two days there.

Your memory deceives you.

deejay

RichN95 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

chapeau to Vino's French too

He's lived in either France or Monaco for twenty years. It would a disgrace if it wasn't good.

Back in the day of so called amateurs, Vinokourov started with a St Etienne club who had pro contacts
.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Italian press asking whether Nibali is greater than Pantani?

I-think-not

I'd say he is. As "exciting", certainly not.

But his palmares dwarf Pantani.

Nibali has never beaten an A lister though. Put him up against Contador, Froome or Quintana and he's nowhere. He's a bit like a boxer who keeps fighting bums.

Depends if you call staying upright a skill or not.

RichN95.

If a rider goes down right in front of you no amount of skill will save you.

ugo.santalucia

iainf72 wrote:

But his palmares dwarf Pantani.

And we all know the reasons for that... 1996 was lost to injury, 1999 was disqualified and never came back really. That leaves 1994, 1995, 1997 and 1998, where he racked 3 podiums and 2 GT wins... I'd say give him a 10 years career like Nibali had and he would have won a hell of a lot of GTs. Pantani V Armstrong from 1999 onwards is something we can only live to regret missing

andrewjoseph

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I'm assuming Nibali didn't go to his GP to get the blood samples so nothing odd about getting the results straight off...

but it takes days to culture, examine, count etc. the only relatively instant check is haemoglobin, iron, red blood cells. At least it was when i was nursing.

rick_chasey

Turned a boring Giro into one of the great Houdini efforts in cycling.

If you didn't like it you've officially jumped the shark and it's not the sport for you.

kleinstroker

andrewjoseph wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I'm assuming Nibali didn't go to his GP to get the blood samples so nothing odd about getting the results straight off...

but it takes days to culture, examine, count etc. the only relatively instant check is haemoglobin, iron, red blood cells. At least it was when i was nursing.

Things have changed, they don't inject the blood into monkeys anymore ! Stop being silly. You have no idea what the blood tests were for, so have no reason to suspect anything other than to start an argument.

NB: reminder to self - don't reply to incoherent doping accusations

ugo.santalucia

Rick Chasey wrote:

Turned a boring Giro into one of the great Houdini efforts in cycling.

If you didn't like it you've officially jumped the shark and it's not the sport for you.

I liked it and I am warming to the idea that it's all true

type:epyt

http://www.saintetiennedisco.com/fanclu ... terol.html

deejay wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

chapeau to Vino's French too

He's lived in either France or Monaco for twenty years. It would a disgrace if it wasn't good.

Back in the day of so called amateurs, Vinokourov started with a St Etienne club who had pro contacts
.

Another fun Astana/Saint Etienne link?

http://www.saintetiennedisco.com/fanclu ... terol.html

nickice

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

fair play to chaves, 26 and just come 2nd in Giro, lots of guys hyped up to be grand tour contenders haven't gone near that!

Is 26 that young? In the 70's and 80's riders were winning GTs a few years younger.

onyourright

If the story isn’t true, it’s at least plausible. You’d think to hear the doubters that Nibali had done something unbelievable. Putting some seconds into a 36-year-old, Uran Uran Uran, a Dutchman riding on broken bones, and an unheralded (if promising) rider on a terrible day is not remarkable except for the emotional circumstances.

And for a moment Nibali’s attack even spluttered and may have failed had he not then bridged to a teammate. Astute Astana tactics saved the day.

bobmcstuff

nickice wrote:

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

fair play to chaves, 26 and just come 2nd in Giro, lots of guys hyped up to be grand tour contenders haven't gone near that!

Is 26 that young? In the 70's and 80's riders were winning GTs a few years younger.

I think the standard of riders is a lot closer together than it was then, there's a lot more depth in the field these days (as they said on the cycling podcast it wasn't that long ago that the Giro field was 90%+ Italian) and training is a lot more advanced. You're not really comparing apples with apples.

Quintana won at 24 or whatever but these days I think peak GT winning age is generally accepted to be late twenties/early thirties?

Not to say you can't win younger of course but Chaves has been on an upward trajectory the last few years and I think it's reasonable to expect him to do well in future.

joelsim

OnYourRight wrote:

If the story isn’t true, it’s at least plausible. You’d think to hear the doubters that Nibali had done something unbelievable. Putting some seconds into a 36-year-old, Uran Uran Uran, a Dutchman riding on broken bones, and an unheralded (if promising) rider on a terrible day is not remarkable except for the emotional circumstances.

And for a moment Nibali’s attack even spluttered and may have failed had he not then bridged to a teammate. Astute Astana tactics saved the day.

That isn't the point.

As Aru did last year, an amazing transformation for the last couple of stages after looking well beaten.

That goes against nature. At least with Froome he is hanging on by his fingernails at the end of a GT. The same can never be said for Astana riders.

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

Turned a boring Giro into one of the great Houdini efforts in cycling.

If you didn't like it you've officially jumped the shark and it's not the sport for you.

Yeah, it turned from a dull first two weeks (bar one or two stages) into a very good edition in the final week. Maybe the organisers got their route balance just right or maybe it's more likely that the second stringers have a bad day? Whatever, an exciting third week and even though I'd have rather Chaves or Kruiswijk had won it you can't fault Nibali's fighting spirit.

Mad_Malx

Assuming nibs wasn't sandbagging or the testing isn't rigged, there's no way that his turnaround was due to doping at a level that could slip under the radar. Micro dosing is only going to help over a sustained period, and an extra gallon of blood will be picked up.
This doesn't exclude the possibility that he had some help, but some of you guys have an exaggerated faith in what pharmacology can achieve.
Much though I would have liked to see kruijswijk or Chaves smiling on the top step.

Le Commentateur

iainf72 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Italian press asking whether Nibali is greater than Pantani?

I-think-not

I'd say he is. As "exciting", certainly not.

But his palmares dwarf Pantani.

Indeed, depends what you mean by "better". Ivan Gotti won more Giros than Pantani, but who remembers him?

nickice

bobmcstuff wrote:

nickice wrote:

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

fair play to chaves, 26 and just come 2nd in Giro, lots of guys hyped up to be grand tour contenders haven't gone near that!

Is 26 that young? In the 70's and 80's riders were winning GTs a few years younger.

I think the standard of riders is a lot closer together than it was then, there's a lot more depth in the field these days (as they said on the cycling podcast it wasn't that long ago that the Giro field was 90%+ Italian) and training is a lot more advanced. You're not really comparing apples with apples.

Quintana won at 24 or whatever but these days I think peak GT winning age is generally accepted to be late twenties/early thirties?

Not to say you can't win younger of course but Chaves has been on an upward trajectory the last few years and I think it's reasonable to expect him to do well in future.

I suppose you could be right but Greg Lemond always felt that if you were good, you were good from the start. What is Chaves going to do to improve from now on? Of course you can become more tactically aware but he already had a whole team behind him so it's not as if he started riding for someone else. I'd be interested to see how, physiologically, you can improve in your mid-twenties.

tim000

EnacheV wrote:

clean people like Chaves gets tired, doped ones come in to form after 3 weeks
this Giro is the exact reminder why this sport is disgusting

so like Quintana and froome in last years tour ? froome strong at the start , but faded . Quintana stronger at the end . ps , I don't think Quintana is doping . just using it to prove a bad example.

bobmcstuff

Pross wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Turned a boring Giro into one of the great Houdini efforts in cycling.

If you didn't like it you've officially jumped the shark and it's not the sport for you.

Yeah, it turned from a dull first two weeks (bar one or two stages) into a very good edition in the final week. Maybe the organisers got their route balance just right or maybe it's more likely that the second stringers have a bad day? Whatever, an exciting third week and even though I'd have rather Chaves or Kruiswijk had won it you can't fault Nibali's fighting spirit.

I think the course was pretty well designed, it gave a steady build in tension over 2 weeks resulting in fireworks in the third - rather than one explosive stage at the start followed by boring defensive riding.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

If a rider goes down right in front of you no amount of skill will save you.

tell that to Sagan.

joelsim

I'm sorry that none of you believe in miracles