Future proofing? Best to go discs?

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It's definitively not welded, it's probably grown onto the metal. Again, the way is applied doesn't say anything about its properties.
The problem with any ceramic coating is that it has different mechanical properties from metal. For instance, you hit a pothole, the metal bends within its yield point and bounces back without you noticing it, the coating cracks, as it cannot bend as much, being a much stiffer material. The thickness of the coating will play a role, if it's thin, it might still bend a little, but then it wears out rapidly, if it's thick, it will last longer but bend less.

What I am tryin to say is that ceramic coated rims are not the solution to the problem of wear, which is the reason they have been around on and off for decades, but never really caught on. In ideal conditions they will last longer, in not ideal conditions they might perform poorly.

According to some Rigida blurb, the carbide is blasted into the rim at 7 times the speed of sound or something like that which is apparently quite a lot faster than Mavic do.

I hear your theory but it doesn't appear to be born out in practice - which is what matters. These wheels have been around for a decade, they last extremely well in all conditions (40,000 km in touring conditions with little sign of wear sounds good to me) and nobody seems to have a problem with them. . There are lots of reasons why some things catch on and others don't. Occasionally those things are related to the efficacy of the product! But in this case, it isn't true that they haven't caught on - it's just the road fraternity that haven't showed any interest; probably because the braking surface is a dull grey colour rather than black.....

They do work, there doesn't seem to be an obvious issue with cracking and they do appear to be the solution to the wear problem - like I said, I've seen this with my own eyes. I think the fact that Mavic have done a poor job of applying this technology doesn't mean that Rigida (who seem to have far longer experience of it - when did Mavic first release a ceramic rim?) haven't done a good job of it.

DeVlaeminck

haven't Mavic had ceramic rims for ages, seem to remember having a pair of Mavic Reflex which had a ceramic coating must be well over 10 years ago. One of them did crack though.

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

I hear your theory but it doesn't appear to be born out in practice - which is what matters. These wheels have been around for a decade, they last extremely well in all conditions (40,000 km in touring conditions with little sign of wear sounds good to me) and nobody seems to have a problem with them. . There are lots of reasons why some things catch on and others don't. Occasionally those things are related to the efficacy of the product! But in this case, it isn't true that they haven't caught on - it's just the road fraternity that haven't showed any interest; probably because the braking surface is a dull grey colour rather than black.....

You make it sound as if there were hundreds of thousands of those rims around, while in fact there's a couple of blokes on the web that mention them and one even gives a positive feedback, showing his rim after 18,000 Km. Interestingly, that rim is nice and shiny and is no longer covered by Tungsten Carbide, so it's probably down to being light on the brakes, more than anything.
Stories of touring rims lasting many tens of thousands with or without coating are not new... the sidewalls are very thick, which also means they weigh a ton.

I don't see any evidence of this stuff being any better than Mavic Open PRO ceramic, which were raved about by few and bought by even fewer, to the point that Mavic stopped making them.
They can be deposited at 7 times the speed of sound, for what I am concerned they might even be deposited at the speed of light, that is not a selling point, as it's a meaningless statement. It's an aluminium rim with a ceramic material deposited on top, whichever way you want to see it, that's the reality. It's probably better than the rim without the Tungsten Carbide... how much better depends on use, I guess

Milton81

I really don't agree with disc brakes on road bikes. Most would disagree but it seems to me completely unnecessary on a road bike! I know weight isn't an issue anymore but there is no need for such braking power on a road bike, neither we ride in mud or ride up and down as often as in cyclocross. No doubt they work, but it seems another commercial way of pushing new things into the market. Having disc brakes means changing everything: frame, wheels, brakes etc.. etc... not to mention the higher maintenance!

Milton81

Let's not forget a few years ago manufactures jumped into the market with integrated seat posts, raving about how good they were! .... does anyone uses them anymore??!?

darkhairedlord

bring back rod brakes, always used to see the old boys riding these back in the day.

cycleclinic

Milton81 the same was said about STI/Ergo shifters in 1989/90 and clipless pedals in 1984 and the 1880's when the where first invented.

I am sure when the French came up with the A-head stem in 1937 similar thing were said. Oval chainrings were around in the 1890's. There was a full suspension bike in the 1890's but the technology at the time meant no dampers. Maybe when the first clincher tyres came about there those who said all thomas Jeffery is trying to do in 1882 is sell something new. Of course he is but clinchers is what you use now isn't it. Maybe in 1922 when the telescopic front suspension (cannondale did not invent the headshock) similar things where said or maybe everyone though what a wonderful idea. It is possible when Harden came up with the first cartridge bearing hub in the 20's folk said how do you service them. Maybe when Baylis came up with the first freehub hubs in the 30's people shouted witchcraft like I do at a iphone.

the point is technology moves on or comes around again for second or third pass, it is not just about pushing sales although that is part of it (this how an economoy works you want to eat don't you) but the other big reason is new tech means new possibilities like being able to stop in the wet without killing your rims for example.

It is a shame some people are so cynical. I suppose you bike Milton81 has D/T shifter, toe clips and is made of lugged steel. single pivot brakes too as you don't like new tech.

cycleclinic

@meanspirit rider I thought my bike was bad. Ugo I break chains so I change them at the wear limit. Also I don't like the way an old chain on a worn cassette feels anyway as the shifting can play up. Add to that chainring wear. The chain rings I use are quite pricey so I want to keep them running for as long as I can.

Snapped another chain on my 29er at the weekend. I just rip them to pieces. I have pulled the links apart before right in the middle of the outer plate, before a chain gets to its wear limit. so I am a bit paranoid about chain wear.

meanredspider

Milton81 wrote:

I really don't agree with disc brakes on road bikes. Most would disagree but it seems to me completely unnecessary on a road bike! I know weight isn't an issue anymore but there is no need for such braking power on a road bike, neither we ride in mud or ride up and down as often as in cyclocross. No doubt they work, but it seems another commercial way of pushing new things into the market. Having disc brakes means changing everything: frame, wheels, brakes etc.. etc... not to mention the higher maintenance!

Yeah - I feel the same about colour television. What was wrong with B&W? It's just a marketing gimmick to sell more TVs

gaffer_slow

There was NOTHING wrong with VHS.

noodleman

Milton81 wrote:

I really don't agree with disc brakes on road bikes. Most would disagree but it seems to me completely unnecessary on a road bike! I know weight isn't an issue anymore but there is no need for such braking power on a road bike, neither we ride in mud or ride up and down as often as in cyclocross. No doubt they work, but it seems another commercial way of pushing new things into the market. Having disc brakes means changing everything: frame, wheels, brakes etc.. etc... not to mention the higher maintenance!

It's not simply about outright power though! And maybe we dont ride through fields or woods but try telling any of our club riders we don't ride in mud after last sundays ride in the cotswolds. Roads around here in the winter months are covered in mud and gravel. Maintenance? maybe a change of pads once in a while and a bleed of the system possibly twice a year at most.

Milton81

Guys I'm a fan of technology and agree we should move forward. Disc brakes are definitely great in some/most conditions but I still think there isn't a big necessity on road bikes. Of course if the market goes that way, that's the future. Maybe next year i will end up buying a bike with road brakes.. I don't know, but I don't seem to have any issues with my current 'ancient' brake set up. I think if you have good skills, you will be fast, if you can't ride, brakes aren't going to help you getting to the line first! Just like electronic group sets, sorry, what is the advantage? I hate the thought of having to charge my bike. I struggle to remember to charge my bike computer.

Milton81

Serious question. What happens with quick wheel change in case of flat during races?? Can this be performed that same way as traditional brakes or do the pads need re-allignment after swap??

meanredspider

In my experience it's as quick if not quicker to swap a disc wheel and hydraulic brakes are self-centering (within reason) - there's no need to release and redo the calipers as there is with rim brakes. All of this assumes you don't have thru-axles but have QR (which are way better in my experience).

What I would add is, if you haven't tried hydraulic road discs, then give them a proper try before deciding they aren't necessary. I've been using discs for 5 years now and seen a steady stream of people converting as they try them. A few haven't and won't.

ugo.santalucia

Milton81 wrote:

Serious question. What happens with quick wheel change in case of flat during races?? Can this be performed that same way as traditional brakes or do the pads need re-allignment after swap??

With QR the front takes about the same time, the rear is generally much slower. pads don't need realignment, but fitting the disc in the slot might require a bit of work IME.
With thru axle I have no idea, as I've never owned it. I think for racing it needs to be paired with tubeless technology and sealant, so that you don't have to change the wheel if you puncture

noodleman

My personal experience is changing the wheel takes no longer than usual. The only difference is making the sure the disc goes between the pads rather than either side. No re-allignment necessary. some advantages i find on electronic groupsets are perfect shifts every time (cant be said for my campag 11spd). Auto mech trimming (not a big deal but nice). Much nicer when your hands are freezing cold to simply press a button than have to move the levers. When i'm tired and trying to sprint uphills i have a tendency to pull slightly on the lever (shimano) when changing gear which results in slight brake rub (not an issue on electronic). I also disagree with your statement about brakes not helping you get to the line first. This would only maybe apply on a TT.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

@MRS you should have got a bike that could take full guards 45mm..!

Last night I was motoring down a slight hill with a great tailwind and pishing rain, I can't deny I was enjoying it so much I hadn't really noticed the traffic suddenly backing up in an unusual place, first real time I really appreciated the combo of disc and 30mm tyres was able to scrub speed off instantly and without locking or skidding although I was preparing myself for both and had even unclipped one foot in anticipation as brain is still in rim brake mode.

My worst thing with rim brakes is clearing the water, I know that it doesn't really impact stopping distance as it takes seconds but I am just not able to program myself not to apply more brake in those seconds in panic so when it grabs it bloody grabs me in to a skid. I still am loving when I clean the bike that the rims still look like new, that really is a novelty.

1250 miles, not once have I had to adjust the brakes and quite a bit of meat left on the disc pads and I reckon I would have been through two rear sets and one front by now on rim think of that wear.

keezx

Milton81 wrote:

Maybe next year i will end up buying a bike with road brakes.. I don't know,

I DO know you will end up with a bike with road brakes.

meanredspider

@F-B-R - I hate full mudguards. They're a real pain if you're transporting the bike with wheels off. The Swan stops crap getting up my back and in my hair and is easily removed. The rest doesn't matter.

cycleclinic

Milton81 obviously thinks rim wear is acceptable or does not ride in the rain much. Rim brakes are fine people have used them for 100 years or more. The offerings today are very good indeed but rim brakes are fine only until they are not. We have all been in the situation in the wet where braking has been lacking and you have that brown shorts moment. We normally get away with it but disc brakes generally avoid those moments well you dont get it from poor braking, too much speed or poor tyre grip can't be removed as causes by brakes.

I hate wearing out rims so I like disc brakes. It is the future. Think of it this way you are being sold a new bike but you wont be buying wheels so often. That surely is a good thing.

I wonder why motorbikes don't have drum brakes still uhmmm let me think.....

The ammount of resistance to change is staggering and wide spread. The thing is most of the resistance comes from people who have never had a proper set up bike with disc brakes. In which case how would you know.

Shuggy76

Why do folks who have 'converted' to disc brakes on road bikes feel the need to convince others of their apparent superiority?
It's not as if rim brakes have suddenly stopped working, and now the rest of us will be in imminent danger of colliding into everything?
As for future proofing, maybe is it the way to go, it's not something I've discounted, but I'm certainly not going to head out and purchase a brand new bike to feel slightly better modulation through the lever.

Go off and enjoy your new brakes I'll not stop enjoying mine...

meanredspider

@Shuggy76 - I actually see it as entirely the reverse. For some reason nearly every disc thread has someone pop up and say "I don't think disc brakes work/are necessary/are more than a marketing gimmick" etc Of course, they're entitled to do it (like in this thread) but then those people who HAVE tried them properly and HAVE converted will pipe up all the reasons that they've found them to be superior. Seatbelts didn't stop working when airbags were invented either - that's not to say that airbags are a waste of time.

The key point is though that pretty much everyone who rides discs used to ride rims and has experienced the improvement. I've been watching that change for 5 years.

Shuggy76

Yeah, I see your point. Why this polarises people so much I'll never know. Obviously the mechanical force multiplication of hydraulic brakes is superior, the flipside of this is the contact patch of the tyre is the same, so minimum stopping distances are somewhat capped. And of course the modulation can be very good on hydraulic discs, however it can also be the opposite too, or at least there were some terrible iterations in the MTB world, can't imagine the road side to be too far from this.

The benefits of rims not wearing is without question, and if you're riding in gritty grimy I can understand using them.

In my humble opinion though, the slight shortfalls of good quality rim brakes (ultegra 6800) are not enough to justify the purchase of two (yep, summer and winter!) bikes. When one wears out, perhaps i'll re-think, in the meantime i'll stick with the rim brakes...

meanredspider

A question about contact patches, though: how many people lock their front brake into a skid? I don't think I've ever done it on a solid surface - the weight transfer is extreme. What I have been able to do is left my rear wheel on demand with discs. And that is what I love about discs is that level of predictable control that I've never found with rim brakes which I've found tend to snatch at the limit.

cycleclinic

grabby rim brakes are a problem. Nearly gone over the bars a couple of times like that. I actually own a number of rim brake bikes and enjoy riding them. I just don't use them everyday. The new race bike has rim brakes.
I don't think I stop quicker with disc brakes it is just that braking is same regardless of the conditions and is more progressive without suddenly grabbing and the front wheel locking up then the back wheel lifting and having a brown shorts moment.

I am not against rim brakes but what I am not is cynical about the need for new tech. It is not about feeling superior it is more about trying to open peoples eyes. The same resistance exists with tubeless tyres. Oddly enough mountain bikers who have used tubeless embrace road tubeless quite easily. roadies who have never ridden an MTB or if they have they have one from 20 years ago with tubes are the most resistant/happy with tubes. How anyone can be happy with inner tubes escapes me but people are because they know where they are with them.

DeVlaeminck

Lift the rear wheel when riding at speed - say slowing from 30 to 25mph ? If you can do that on demand with discs then yes I'm impressed - or do you mean lift the rear wheel when stopping or slowing right down - because that would be pretty routine with any brake wouldn't it ?

World of Wigans

Try the new direct mount brakes with SwissTop pads. You'll think twice about shelling out for discs, especially if you race as discs haven't been approved at club level yet.

meanredspider

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Lift the rear wheel when riding at speed - say slowing from 30 to 25mph ? If you can do that on demand with discs then yes I'm impressed - or do you mean lift the rear wheel when stopping or slowing right down - because that would be pretty routine with any brake wouldn't it ?

I don't know the speed (it takes a bit too much of my concentration to be looking at my Garmin) - I'm guessing around 10-15mph. I expect it could be done quicker - I'm just not good enough. The point is that discs are very predictable - I could never do it on rims. And, if you have confidence and predictability on your brakes, you can brake later and harder. With rims in less than perfect conditions, you never know quite what you're going to get until you squeeze the lever.

I too ride rim brakes, remember - the Foil has them (as did my Cayo, Variado, Cinder Cone before that) and hop between bikes quite often. But I expect you can imagine what the Foil brakes were like in the mud and crap that's in that picture I posted.

mamba80

Regardless of the benefits of disc's - i really dont get what you guys r on about, my rim brakes wet or dry stop me, they are predictable and stopping (rather than just slowing down) distances in the wet are limited by lean angles and tire grip, esp when riding on a farm lanes.
Just use a soft pad, like a Gooey or Salmon and clean the rims reg.

Of course when it comes to rim wear, disc;s obviously win hands down.

DeVlaeminck

I agree, I can't argue that full hydros aren't better because I've not used them but I find modulation on rim brakes fine. Rim wear vs extra faff and weight of discs - tbh I'm still favouring rim brakes on a race bike.