Future proofing? Best to go discs?
Comments
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I was congratulating you for being a hard man and riding badass trails on your commuter. Chapeau.
And I was just pointing out that your arguments make no sense. Chapeau
Open Pros are cheaper than Ice-Tech rotors. Besides, most people will never ride enough miles to change their rims. There is no type of 'road' riding I can think of which requires discs.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
I was congratulating you for being a hard man and riding badass trails on your commuter. Chapeau.
And I was just pointing out that your arguments make no sense. Chapeau
Open Pros are cheaper than Ice-Tech rotors. Besides, most people will never ride enough miles to change their rims. There is no type of 'road' riding I can think of which requires discs.
So Open Pro rims that end up on £200 wheels are comparible with Ice Tech Freeza (I assume you mean Freeza as regular Ice Tech rotors are the same price as expensive rubber brake blocks) rotors - the most expensive disc rotors out there? Well, that's a rock solid data point in your otherwise flimsy argument :roll:
Well - of course there's no type of road riding YOU can think of which require discs...ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Just because you drank the Kool-Aid... Next you'll be trying to convince everyone that TT bikes need discs.
And no, in all my tens of thousands of miles on roads I haven't needed discs. When I did ride MTB trails I used an MTB (novel thought that). As I've said before, rim brakes are fine on the road.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
I would only choose discs if they are hydro. I have cable pulls on a £800 bike and they don't meet the hype and as others have said, the standards are changing like underwear so they are unlikely to be futureproof.0
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Nope, Grill - as I said at the beginning, you don't need good brakes on a bike that doesn't need to brake much. There's logic and reason in my argument.
Well, if you've never needed discs (and I have no way of dispelling that) you've obviously not gone as fast in the wet as you could have done - as it's almost universally accepted that discs are better in the wet.
But these are old and dull arguments and you aren't going to listen so it's a waste of time. GoodnightROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
I look forward to how long Grill holds out on road bike w/discs0
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I'll say it again: TA are a waste of time on road bikes. They're a PITA for fitting wheels and don't make it any easier and they make no difference to disc rub. I've had QR on discs for over 5 years - never felt the need for anything else. I like new technology but not where it makes things worse. TA deserves to die an early death on road bikes. I'm even sceptical, based upon what I've seen, that it might help on MTB but I can imagine a bit more stiffness across the bottom of long-stroke suspension forks might be useful. I'm not even sure of that.
All perfectly logical, but since when has logic had any relevance to what the bike industry pushes out...?
That's fair. I'm often a fan of the new stuff but TA simply adds nothing as my own bike proves.
But, as I say, you CAN be future proof with QR because there are already adaptors that allow you to fit TA wheels to QR bikes. And there are still LOADS of MTBs with QR.
I don't agree on this one, sure QR works fine with discs but TA gives you added stiffness that stops the occassional disc rub you get with QR and discs. There's no downside to a well designed TA system once the standards are aligned.0 -
"No place for discs on a road bike" is poppy cock!
Last week I was in a group of four (road) riders. Three of us had disc brakes one had rim brakes. The weather was cold and wet. As we approached a roundabout a car appeared out of a junction way to fast. We all applied the brakes sharply together. Three of us stopped pronto. One of us had a much longer stopping distance (and was very lucky). I'll let you deduct the riders?
So. In dry weather a good set of rim brakes is all you need (which I have on my Summer Bike). But. In wet weather there is no comparison. Discs are MUCH better.
We don't need discs is like saying we don't need DI2. The people who say that are the ones who refuse to accept change.0 -
Riding in the rain is no fun and more dangerous than in the dry.
So I avoid it at all costs. Therefore I am more than happy with rim brakes.
However, if I DID ride alot in the rain (and I know some of you love that), then I would definitely look at discs.
Why ignore a guaranteed performance enhancement?0 -
"No place for discs on a road bike" is poppy fool!
Last week I was in a group of four (road) riders. Three of us had disc brakes one had rim brakes. The weather was cold and wet. As we approached a roundabout a car appeared out of a junction way to fast. We all applied the brakes sharply together. Three of us stopped pronto. One of us had a much longer stopping distance (and was very lucky). I'll let you deduct the riders?
So. In dry weather a good set of rim brakes is all you need (which I have on my Summer Bike). But. In wet weather there is no comparison. Discs are MUCH better.
We don't need discs is like saying we don't need DI2. The people who say that are the ones who refuse to accept change.
you are a marketing mans dream
we dont need Di2 or etap either. 0 -
"No place for discs on a road bike" is poppy fool!
Last week I was in a group of four (road) riders. Three of us had disc brakes one had rim brakes. The weather was cold and wet. As we approached a roundabout a car appeared out of a junction way to fast. We all applied the brakes sharply together. Three of us stopped pronto. One of us had a much longer stopping distance (and was very lucky). I'll let you deduct the riders?
So. In dry weather a good set of rim brakes is all you need (which I have on my Summer Bike). But. In wet weather there is no comparison. Discs are MUCH better.
We don't need discs is like saying we don't need DI2. The people who say that are the ones who refuse to accept change.
you are a marketing mans dream we dont need Di2 or etap either.
I hate marketing guff as much as the next man; 'Gamechanger' shorts, 4 minutes off your hour TT, etc. etc. but I do love Di2 and I much prefer my Di2 bike to the non-Di2 one (9000).
Progress is good, and although there'll be some flops, overall, the path is up.0 -
You still haven't got it, Grill, so I'll spell it out in words of one syllable
Crap on roads with hills wear out the rims on your bike.
Oh come on - be fair! Don't spoil your good arguments with dodgy ones; it's a bad habit of yours! It's reasonable to say that rim brakes are an issue in crap weather but in dry weather, you are doing something wrong if you are wearing your rims out just because it is hilly.
As it happens though, it is actually unfair to compare old rim brake technology with up to date disc technology. I spent three months last year cycling to the North Cape with a Dutch friend. I was on a traditional British tourer with canti brakes and new rims. By the end of the 4200 mile ride, the rims had worn noticeably and the tyres were covered in grey cack - a mixture of rubber and alloy. So, minus one to the rim brakes then?
Well no. My mate was running hydraulic rim brakes on Rigida rims with a tungsten carbide 'coating' (speech marks because apparently the tungsten carbide is blasted into the rim at high speed so is more than a coating). His rims were not in the slightest worn and the tyres remained clean for the whole trip confirming the lack of rim wear. I also went through almost two sets of pads whereas his were barely worn.
So, rim wear is more down the nature of the rim itself than the braking method. Of course, the Rigida rim technology seems unavailable on lightweight rims were sadly coating technology is all about making alloy rims look like carbon ones rather than for any functional benefit!Faster than a tent.......0 -
If discs means I can have rims like that, where do I sign up?
Even for American Classic, they are a little garish.
From my own experiences, discs are great, rim brakes are great.
Much of my opinion is based on being sub 60kg, so I have no need of more power than I get from a good rim brake (even in the rain). Rims wear out, but, again, if you are light, they last forever (i don't measure distance on individual wheels, but I have some rims that have done over 20000km through all weathers).
However, if I were a heavier rider, I guess there becomes a point where discs are more appealing. Certainly on the tandem (we are a 120kg team) I would not be without discs (mechanical with huge rotors).0 -
I think "future proofing" needs to be put into context. Things change, things evolve, some we are forced to use even if we do/did not want to (try using an analogue mobile). Manufacturers need to sell product, to do that they can make it better,different or just invent something new. We as individuals can choose if we want to buy into whatever they are trying to sell us. Early adopters will want the latest tech, sheep will do whatever they are told, some will refuse and stick to what they have, but I believe a large proportion will just buy whatever is current at the time (because their current thing is worn/broken or they just want to). Manufacturers will be reluctant to go through the "agreeing standards" process as it is costly and/or they think their thing/design is better or has the edge over the competition. Given todays availability of information on product reliability and performance, poor products generally don't sell well or are dropped fairly quickly (or sold to idiots on so called "black friday").
People who frequent forums and discussion boards seem to be one of two types, those that are passionate about a subject (or at least have an interest), and those that are having a problem with something and require help in some form (weather that be advice, information, how to or just a recommendation). But, and its a big but, the majority of people who buy any given range of products do not spend their time on forums associated with those products. I'm sure some manufacturers align themselves and keep a watch on what is currently being discussed (and may even develop things accordingly), the majority will just build what sells to the masses and makes a good profit.
What I am trying to say is that in our world "future proofing" will mean different things to each of us. The likleyhood of being able to buy a particular "spare" in 20 years time will be dependent on the nature of the spare (a wheel, brake block, crank etc etc will probably be obtainable, spares for an electronic widget may not). So if your idea of future proofing means will I still be able to keep this particular model on the road? The answer is probably yes. If however it is can I fit whatever is current in 20 years to whatever I've just bought? The answer is possibly but probably not.Rose Xeon CDX 3100, Ultegra Di2 disc (nice weather)
Ribble Gran Fondo, Campagnolo Centaur (winter bike)
Van Raam 'O' Pair
Land Rover (really nasty weather )0 -
Looking to get rid of my heavy old hybrid and get back on a road bike. Since I last had a road bike disc brakes have now become the in thing. Am I best off future proofing myself by buying a bike with discs?
My budget is around £800 and quite like the look of the Giant Defy 2 disc or a Vitus Zenium disc.
Disc brakes are going to be better, but if you want future proofing and availability of parts then disc brakes are not in it. Standards, such as they are, are in massive flux and will be for the next 2-3 years.
In the meantime caliper brakes are ubiquitous and not going anywhere anytime soon.0 -
"No place for discs on a road bike" is poppy fool!
Last week I was in a group of four (road) riders. Three of us had disc brakes one had rim brakes. The weather was cold and wet. As we approached a roundabout a car appeared out of a junction way to fast. We all applied the brakes sharply together. Three of us stopped pronto. One of us had a much longer stopping distance (and was very lucky). I'll let you deduct the riders?
So. In dry weather a good set of rim brakes is all you need (which I have on my Summer Bike). But. In wet weather there is no comparison. Discs are MUCH better.
We don't need discs is like saying we don't need DI2. The people who say that are the ones who refuse to accept change.
Crap pads are crap pads. Swissstops actually do the job with the actual limit being a combination of brake setup and tyre choice (the ultimate limit of adhesion). Lots of disc bikes out there with glazed pads; they don't stop either.
I went from Di2 back to mechanical on my road bike. There's just no point (as I've always said, it's great on a TT rig). Just because I spend then GDP of small island nations on bike crap doesn't mean that I'm blinded by the marketing.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
@Rolf F - sorry - on my phone so I'm not even going to attempt to quote and edit. I just wanted to clarify what I meant by "crappy". Next time I'm commuting I'll take a picture of the "crap" on the roads around here. It's basically liquid mud and (to be honest) crap spread about mostly by the farmers (who don't want you to go on their land but are happy to share their land all over the roads).
I'm not for one minute saying that dry dirty roads will wear out rims but the wet, muddy, crap and sand-strewn ones most surely will.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
@ Marcusjb - yup, those American Classics rims are shocking in their decoration. That lot will come off once:
a. I'm sure the frame is OK - first two bikes (one was ex-demo) had to go back for frame faults
b. I can figure out the best way to remove it (looks frighteningly well applied)
I'm currently riding exclusively in the dark so it doesn't matter.
They're nice wheels (especially as original equipment). It's a great bike too and I saw last week that it had been placed Bike of the Year by Road.cc - not one of the usual suspect brands. Plenty of fire roads, forest trails and the like in Scotland and the filthy roads down here.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
I'll say it again: TA are a waste of time on road bikes. They're a PITA for fitting wheels and don't make it any easier and they make no difference to disc rub. I've had QR on discs for over 5 years - never felt the need for anything else. I like new technology but not where it makes things worse. TA deserves to die an early death on road bikes. I'm even sceptical, based upon what I've seen, that it might help on MTB but I can imagine a bit more stiffness across the bottom of long-stroke suspension forks might be useful. I'm not even sure of that.
All perfectly logical, but since when has logic had any relevance to what the bike industry pushes out...?
That's fair. I'm often a fan of the new stuff but TA simply adds nothing as my own bike proves.
But, as I say, you CAN be future proof with QR because there are already adaptors that allow you to fit TA wheels to QR bikes. And there are still LOADS of MTBs with QR.
I don't agree on this one, sure QR works fine with discs but TA gives you added stiffness that stops the occassional disc rub you get with QR and discs. There's no downside to a well designed TA system once the standards are aligned.
That's the point - in my experience (and that of a few others that have ridden both) there's absolutely no difference between the two. And, from an engineering point of view, I also struggle to see why you'd expect there to be much different. The QR provides the clamping force (much like a screw does in any assembly) and the axle in the wheel provides the stiffness. Whatever, I still get exactly the same minor disc rub on hard standing climbs between both systems. It was never an issue on QR and it isn't on TA.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Thats got to be one of the fugliest bikes ever seen on this forum.I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19782119#p19782119]SloppySchleckonds[/url] wrote:
Thats got to be one of the fugliest bikes ever seen on this forum.
I wondered when you would crawl out from under your rock with a "useful" one-liner....
Fortunately the reviewers are far less shallow
http://road.cc/content/feature/173196-roadcc-bike-year-2015-16ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
And when it takes me to places like this on the F500, I'll forgive it anything:
ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
I use my disc brake bike for commuting. My route to work is not direct. It takes in the mud covered roads in all weather. I ride everyday. When riding with rim brakes through winter wear the front out in about 3000 miles. There is no way of avoiding this done it before and it would happen again this year if I did not have a disc brake bike. 3000 miles is 10 weeks riding. I can't be re-rimming at the end of every winter and then again at the begining of winter. Disc brakes are a must for me. For my weekend bikes then rim brakes are fine. My race bike has rim brakes because I can't use disc brakes yet and I can't afford to replace all yet.
thru axles are not needed with rigid forks imo. I suppose with light weight fork legs they would help but I ride rigid 29er MTB's with Q/R and they corner like they are on rails (except in the mud). Tried TA bikes and they feel little different.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
On rim brakes one of my best braking bikes uses Campagnolo veloce brake calipers and cheap Clarks pads (which are quite abrasive) on some old FIR tubular rims. the best braking road bike is DA caliper on Ambrosio Nemesis rims. The most predictable are my disc brakes on the Genesis. Actually the best is the Shimano XTR brakes on my MTB's but we are not taking MTB's. In the wet I have nearly gone over the bars with the Veloce calipers. Rim brakes can work well in the wet. However with disc brakes my rear brake actually slows me down quicker than my rear rim brake calipers can. Not sure why so overall I can stop in a more controlable way with disc brakes without the risk of putting the bike on the front wheel.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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Most people are getting a lot more than 3000 miles out of a rim though and aren't riding 15000 miles a year.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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Nevermind future proofing, I'd like to travel back in time ~110 weeks and be on a hydraulic disced bike on that fateful morning, over two years on my upper jaw and lower nose often remind me they got messed up (despite the titanium plates holding them together)!;)
I don't think I could buy a rim brake bike again.================
2020 Voodoo Marasa
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
2016 Voodoo Wazoo0 -
Nevermind future proofing, I'd like to travel back in time ~56 weeks and be on a hydraulic disced bike on that fateful morning, over two years on my upper jaw and lower nose often remind me they got messed up (despite the titanium plates holding them together)!;)
I don't think I could buy a rim brake bike again.
Not sure of your accident details but most folks that I know who complain about the inability to brake hard overlook the fact that stopping quickly is dependent on a few factors, like road surface, tyres/tyre width and not least the overall ability of 23-28mm of rubber to able to scrub speed off a 15 stone bloke riding at 30mph down a hill without simple skidding out.
The best brakes are the ones you don't desperately need at a specific point in time! Hence, reading ahead, being prepared to slow down just in case, braking at the right time and with the right amount of modulation makes much more difference, IMO, than the actual braking technology, assuming that it is of a certain level.0 -
That's all well and good, but does rather ignore the demonstrable fact (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs) that disk brakes are better in any non-perfect conditions, just as good in perfect conditions, and so a key one of those 'few factors'. Disk brakes mean I can go faster under most sets of conditions.Nevermind future proofing, I'd like to travel back in time ~56 weeks and be on a hydraulic disced bike on that fateful morning, over two years on my upper jaw and lower nose often remind me they got messed up (despite the titanium plates holding them together)!;)
I don't think I could buy a rim brake bike again.
Not sure of your accident details but most folks that I know who complain about the inability to brake hard overlook the fact that stopping quickly is dependent on a few factors, like road surface, tyres/tyre width and not least the overall ability of 23-28mm of rubber to able to scrub speed off a 15 stone bloke riding at 30mph down a hill without simple skidding out.
The best brakes are the ones you don't desperately need at a specific point in time! Hence, reading ahead, being prepared to slow down just in case, braking at the right time and with the right amount of modulation makes much more difference, IMO, than the actual braking technology, assuming that it is of a certain level.
I hate commuting in bad conditions on rim brakes because it means I must leave more stopping distance, which then leads to more dodgy overtakes from impatient road users that can't understand why I have that big gap in front of me.
If you are going to have just one road bike, I would get one with discs - or go one step further, get a cross bike, then you can fit 35mm tyres, so giving you even better braking performance, you can even fit studded tyres for snow & ice. If you find you can mix it with the fast boys, then you have an extra excuse for buying a rim braked race bike...0 -
That's all well and good, but does rather ignore the demonstrable fact (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs) that disk brakes are better in any non-perfect conditions, just as good in perfect conditions, and so a key one of those 'few factors'. Disk brakes mean I can go faster under most sets of conditions.Nevermind future proofing, I'd like to travel back in time ~56 weeks and be on a hydraulic disced bike on that fateful morning, over two years on my upper jaw and lower nose often remind me they got messed up (despite the titanium plates holding them together)!;)
I don't think I could buy a rim brake bike again.
Not sure of your accident details but most folks that I know who complain about the inability to brake hard overlook the fact that stopping quickly is dependent on a few factors, like road surface, tyres/tyre width and not least the overall ability of 23-28mm of rubber to able to scrub speed off a 15 stone bloke riding at 30mph down a hill without simple skidding out.
The best brakes are the ones you don't desperately need at a specific point in time! Hence, reading ahead, being prepared to slow down just in case, braking at the right time and with the right amount of modulation makes much more difference, IMO, than the actual braking technology, assuming that it is of a certain level.
I hate commuting in bad conditions on rim brakes because it means I must leave more stopping distance, which then leads to more dodgy overtakes from impatient road users that can't understand why I have that big gap in front of me.
If you are going to have just one road bike, I would get one with discs - or go one step further, get a cross bike, then you can fit 35mm tyres, so giving you even better braking performance, you can even fit studded tyres for snow & ice. If you find you can mix it with the fast boys, then you have an extra excuse for buying a rim braked race bike...
mmm, overlooking the fact that I have no intention of riding a crossbike with 35mm knobbly tyres for my road riding, if I was going to compare rim versus disc in poor weather then I would at least pick a wheel with a decent aluminium brake track and something like Swisstop Flashpro or Koolstop Salmon.0 -
[quote="TimothyWThat's all well and good, but does rather ignore the demonstrable fact (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs)[/quote]
Carbon rim vs. discs isn't really conclusive is it. Had they done this on an alloy rim or even better an Exalith 2 rim...0
