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  • I have.

    Along with 535445 others.

    So, you ve signed a petition to ban a guy from coming to the UK, for the reason that he wants to ban people from coming to his country????? :roll:

    all over europe falls have been seen in tourism etc Paris alone has lost about 2b euros in business, so i doubt if Trump is the only one to be unsure about Muslim migration into US and europe, ukip polled 3m voters, (60% agree with trump) so about 2m think Trump is correct but of course they dont count do they? just 4 x the number that have signed your petition.

    But to agree with trump is seen as not PC, so people give the answer they think is ok to give.
  • pinnopinno Posts: 39,158
    edited December 2015
    I do not know how the likes of the minions that are us are supposed to convey a message that says we don't endorse your attitude Mr Trump. In fact, it is not about liking or disliking his attitude it is about not provoking those who are anti-west, fundamentalist muslims and in the light of recent happenings in Paris, his sentiments are downright dangerous (and easy to say being across the pond in perceived safety).
    When Merkel is trying her best and even we are trying our best not to exacerbate the current situation, this pleb of a man is spouting the sort of rubbish that undermines the careful diplomatic path that even DC is treading seen with his recent public address (es).

    In that respect, we are powerless to do anything about him and his bigotry, stupidity [insert adjective of your choice here]. If it sends a clear message to the Republicans that they are backing the wrong moron, then i'll sign the petition. The bigger picture is a tense and tentative climate surrounding extremism on our doorstep, not the apparent hypocrisy of signing that petition.
    If this idiot were to win the US presidential election (I don't think he will BTW), it would be squeaky bum time.
    I just think that it is only a matter of time that the US electorate vote for a Trump or a Palin...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpDEu8KmNj0
    S - https://i.pinimg.com/564x/35/cd/f1/35cdf125f02216d233fc9aa90f8607e6.jpg
    W - (still at Atlantic boulevard). Neill broke his collarbone.

    "Why are the tractors beeping in the night? I dunno woss goin' on"
    Tricky, 9yo
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 3,238
    11,000 gun homicides per year in US and no momentum behind any suggestion to implement gun control.
    One (of many) mass shootings has a muslim extremist motivation and the idea is proposed that restrictions on muslims is required, where's the proposed restrictions on postal workers, emo's and whatever other common themes occur in mass shootings.

    The petition is amusing and reactionary but also shouldn't be dismissed as totally flippant. Hate preachers can be banned, why not Trump?

    The thing that I find so pathetic in all of this is his clarification. Stop muslims entering the country until our security forces can 'find out what is going on'. You seriously don't know what's going on???

    There's no easy solution to the current mess. I accept that, but we sure as hell know what's going on.
  • pinnopinno Posts: 39,158
    I was in the very esteemed company of two QC's and a judge the day after 9/11. Quite by accident. There was little said about the atrocities that had taken place (beyond normal conventions) between them. The only clear thing that was uttered was quite succinct. It was:

    "The chickens have come home to roost".
    S - https://i.pinimg.com/564x/35/cd/f1/35cdf125f02216d233fc9aa90f8607e6.jpg
    W - (still at Atlantic boulevard). Neill broke his collarbone.

    "Why are the tractors beeping in the night? I dunno woss goin' on"
    Tricky, 9yo
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 14,142
    I was in the very esteemed company of two QC's and a judge the day after 9/11. Quite by accident. There was little said about the atrocities that had taken place beyond the conventions between them. The only clear thing that was uttered was quite succinct. It was:

    "The chickens have come home to roost".

    Did you get off?
  • pinnopinno Posts: 39,158
    I was in the very esteemed company of two QC's and a judge the day after 9/11. Quite by accident. There was little said about the atrocities that had taken place beyond the conventions between them. The only clear thing that was uttered was quite succinct. It was:

    "The chickens have come home to roost".

    Did you get off?

    :D
    S - https://i.pinimg.com/564x/35/cd/f1/35cdf125f02216d233fc9aa90f8607e6.jpg
    W - (still at Atlantic boulevard). Neill broke his collarbone.

    "Why are the tractors beeping in the night? I dunno woss goin' on"
    Tricky, 9yo
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,980 Lives Here
    I do not know how the likes of the minions that are us are supposed to convey a message that says we don't endorse your attitude Mr Trump. In fact, it is not about liking or disliking his attitude it is about not provoking those who are anti-west, fundamentalist muslims and in the light of recent happenings in Paris, his sentiments are downright dangerous (and easy to say being across the pond in perceived safety).
    When Merkel is trying her best and even we are trying our best not to exacerbate the current situation, this pleb of a man is spouting the sort of rubbish that undermines the careful diplomatic path that even DC is treading seen with his recent public address (es).

    In that respect, we are powerless to do anything about him and his bigotry, stupidity [insert adjective of your choice here]. If it sends a clear message to the Republicans that they are backing the wrong moron, then i'll sign the petition. The bigger picture is a tense and tentative climate surrounding extremism on our doorstep, not the apparent hypocrisy of signing that petition.
    If this idiot were to win the US presidential election (I don't think he will BTW), it would be squeaky bum time.
    I just think that it is only a matter of time that the US electorate vote for a Trump or a Palin...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpDEu8KmNj0

    Let's set some things straight.

    You are basically powerless to do anything about trump.

    The petition does, as you would expect for something so a) trivial and b) knee jerk, it has already been dismissed.

    You need to get over that. If you want to have some power on things like this, go into politics.

    Generally, banning anything should be considered a last resort, especially when it is about opinions.

    On this: it's more powerful to point out the flaws and problems with Trump's view than it is to ban him. It shouldn't be hard. Banning him just sinks down to his level. We revere Britain as a place of liberalism. It steered past more extreme government forms by debate and argument. Best keep it that way.
  • pinnopinno Posts: 39,158
    Quote:

    "...banning anything should be considered a last resort, especially when it is about opinions."

    I agree but his opinions, as I have stated, are dangerous. Tyson Fury has lots of opinions but he's not planning to be in a position of power.

    "We revere Britain as a place of liberalism. It steered past more extreme government forms by debate and argument. "

    Yes and lets keep it that way. If you see what I mean.
    S - https://i.pinimg.com/564x/35/cd/f1/35cdf125f02216d233fc9aa90f8607e6.jpg
    W - (still at Atlantic boulevard). Neill broke his collarbone.

    "Why are the tractors beeping in the night? I dunno woss goin' on"
    Tricky, 9yo
  • debelidebeli Posts: 582
    The ePetition seeking a ban is puerile and pointless...

    But no matter.

    I think that Trump will start to fade (as a candidate) in the next fortnight and will not be resurrected politically - other than among a barmy fringe - thereafter.

    Nonetheless, he has done much damage and his pronouncements have legitimised - in the minds of the cracked - a sort of divisive, xenophobic, sneering disdain for 'the other' that will leave an ugly taste for some time.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    I have.

    Along with 535445 others.

    So, you ve signed a petition to ban a guy from coming to the UK, for the reason that he wants to ban people from coming to his country????? :roll:

    I don't understand why people can't tell the difference between what the petition aims to do and what Trump is saying. He wants to ban, effectively, a race on the basis that a miniscule proportion of those people are a threat. The petition aims (inappropriately IMO - let him come over here and make more of an idiot of himself) to ban a specific individual for his views - it's not the same thing. If you can't tell the difference between the two then presumably you are of the opinion that it would be racist to dislike, for example, Mugabe.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,980 Lives Here
    If you don't like people's opinions you don't ban them.

    That's illiberal.

    No mod does that on here and we don't even need to look after free speech and democracy.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    If you don't like people's opinions you don't ban them.

    That's illiberal.

    No mod does that on here and we don't even need to look after free speech and democracy.

    I'm not disagreeing with you there but that has nothing to do with the fact that there is a difference between having a negative opinion of an individual and having a negative opinion of an entire race. There's nothing intrinsically ironic in the aims of the petition whether it is misguided or not.

    As for mods on here - they do commonly eradicate given opinions by deleting threads rather than just locking them. If you are making analogies with the Trump issue, the mods response on here would be to happily remove all record of Trumps comments and the ensuing debates! It's just as well you don't need to look after free speech! :wink:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,980 Lives Here
    Some mods are more heavy handed than others ;).

    But thing is, I'd imagine there are Brits who think and say the same thing amongst friends.

    Do we ban them too?
  • If you don't like people's opinions you don't ban them.

    That's illiberal.

    No mod does that on here and we don't even need to look after free speech and democracy.

    I'm not disagreeing with you there but that has nothing to do with the fact that there is a difference between having a negative opinion of an individual and having a negative opinion of an entire race. There's nothing intrinsically ironic in the aims of the petition whether it is misguided or not.

    As for mods on here - they do commonly eradicate given opinions by deleting threads rather than just locking them. If you are making analogies with the Trump issue, the mods response on here would be to happily remove all record of Trumps comments and the ensuing debates! It's just as well you don't need to look after free speech! :wink:

    firstly Trump is an idiot (or a clever spy?) but i do see the irony in disliking Trump's comments on Muslims (not a race?) and starting up a petition to ban him from UK, so he doesnt like Muslims, so bans them, we dont like trump, so ban him.

    i dont see the connection with Mugabe, a mass murderer who has improverished his country.
  • mrfpbmrfpb Posts: 4,451

    The thing that I find so pathetic in all of this is his clarification. Stop muslims entering the country until our security forces can 'find out what is going on'. You seriously don't know what's going on???

    There's no easy solution to the current mess. I accept that, but we sure as hell know what's going on.

    He isn't the President or a Presidential candidate, so doesn't have access to security briefings. He is, Farage style, echoing and amplifying an uncertainty held by the electorate.
    debeli wrote:
    I think that Trump will start to fade (as a candidate) in the next fortnight and will not be resurrected politically - other than among a barmy fringe - thereafter.

    The first primary is still seven weeks away, and no one is likely to drop out until a few have delivered their results. Candidates drop because their funding dries up when it is clear they don't have a mandate. Trump is self funding, so it is entirely down to him how far he pushes the process. If no consistent leader emerges in Jan/Feb he may keep going until "Super Tuesday" (in May?) when twelve big States announce their candidates.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    Lookyhere wrote:
    firstly Trump is an idiot (or a clever spy?) but i do see the irony in disliking Trump's comments on Muslims (not a race?) and starting up a petition to ban him from UK, so he doesnt like Muslims, so bans them, we dont like trump, so ban him.

    i dont see the connection with Mugabe, a mass murderer who has improverished his country.

    Easier to use the term 'race' in this context - ultimately, I suspect Trump would be happier if only nice republican white people were allowed in America.

    As for Mugabe......

    Going back to Trump and Muslims. Some Muslims are nasty pieces of work. As are some white people and some black people (eg aforementioned Mugabe) and some Republican Americans. No reasonable person would say that because of this, all Muslims, all white people and all black people and all Republican Americans are nasty pieces of work because that would be racist.

    Now, you might then decide you want to have a house party. Do you think that there would be anything ironic about wanting to invite some Republican Americans to that party but at the same time banning Donald Trump? Do you think that it would be exactly the same thing to just ban all Republican Americans from your party?

    I think it would be different. I don't think that it is ironic to want to ban an individual but to think that banning a race is something different. Infact, I would say that to think otherwise is racist. The whole point about racism is that it is the application of hatred to an entire race. There's nothing wrong with hating individuals. It's a good thing because why would you like bastards like Mugabe? They are horrible, worthless people. On the other hand, hating an entire race is wrong because most people are nice and don't deserve to be hated whatever their colour.

    So it's OK to hate Trump for wanting to ban Muslims and it's OK to not want him in your house for that reason and there's nothing inconsistent or ironic about that.

    But I still don't agree with the petition! And I probably still haven't explained myself well!
    Some mods are more heavy handed than others ;).

    But thing is, I'd imagine there are Brits who think and say the same thing amongst friends.

    Do we ban them too?

    Oooh, thought police. If they took over I'd have to ban myself for the stuff that goes on in my head!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • cc78cc78 Posts: 599
    another defeat, this time in the Supreme Court, for the odious cretin and his poxy golf course

    http://news.stv.tv/north/1336132-donald-trump-loses-legal-battle-against-offshore-wind-farm/
  • pinnopinno Posts: 39,158
    another defeat, this time in the Supreme Court, for the odious cretin and his poxy golf course

    http://news.stv.tv/north/1336132-donald-trump-loses-legal-battle-against-offshore-wind-farm/

    He's willing to build a Golf Course in an environmentally sensitive area and then suddenly he's worried about the environment with the construction of this wind farm?!

    "This is an extremely unfortunate verdict for the residents of Aberdeen and anyone who cares about Scotland's economic future.

    "The EOWDC will completely destroy the bucolic Aberdeen Bay and cast a terrible shadow upon the future of tourism for the area.

    "History will judge those involved unfavourably and the outcome demonstrates the foolish, small minded and parochial mentality which dominates the current Scottish Governments dangerous experiment with wind energy."
    S - https://i.pinimg.com/564x/35/cd/f1/35cdf125f02216d233fc9aa90f8607e6.jpg
    W - (still at Atlantic boulevard). Neill broke his collarbone.

    "Why are the tractors beeping in the night? I dunno woss goin' on"
    Tricky, 9yo
  • IIRC the authorities can ban persons from entering the UK for several reasons including promoting hatred. Also in this country promoting hatred or hate crimes is an offence in itself. I'm not saying trump is doing that so I feel he shouldn't be banned. Indeed I would encourage him to come over here and say these comments publicly. I'd love to see him on a political debate show such as any questions or Question time. I'd fully expect such comments made on these shows over here to get short shrift. He'd be sent packing in the debate. Also any overstepping of the legal mark for hate crimes or promoting it would quite possibly result in him being banned in future or even prosecuted. I do however wonder what diplomatic status he'd have if he's the nominated republican candidate, if he became that.

    There is precedent in banning a foreign political figure. IIRC the Dutch right wing mp whose name escapes me. He was banned from entering UK after an invite to talk in the house of commons committee room to a v select group, invite from a right wing Tory BTW. He had extensively given talks promoting hate based policies and beliefs of a racist leaning. In this country he'd now be arrested for some of those comments if they'd been made here in recent b years.

    Others who've been banned include snoop dog for drugs offences and numerous other practitioners of music of black origin. Also religious preachers who had openly preached religious hatred like the Florida based pastor IIRC.

    My view is he's distasteful, wrong headed and very much morally questionable but we don't have enough yet to justly ban him. that may come should he repeat in the UK comments and take them just a bit further. He is still the current republican front runner. That may well change but until then he's a worry but no threat requiring a travel ban.

    BTW IMHO he's in a kind of Corbyn-esque position in that he's currently the first choice/front runner to compete as the republican candidate for president but he'll not beat Clinton. Unless the republicans vote for a believable presidential candidate they're only going to put Clinton into the white house. My worry is I just cannot see where that Clinton beating candidate is going to come from. Kind of like the Tory beating Labour leader right now. Both parties have a political and geographical divide in the Atlantic but share a similar political unelectability to their respective nations for the top political spot.
  • Lookyhere wrote:
    firstly Trump is an idiot (or a clever spy?) but i do see the irony in disliking Trump's comments on Muslims (not a race?) and starting up a petition to ban him from UK, so he doesnt like Muslims, so bans them, we dont like trump, so ban him.

    i dont see the connection with Mugabe, a mass murderer who has improverished his country.

    Easier to use the term 'race' in this context - ultimately, I suspect Trump would be happier if only nice republican white people were allowed in America.

    As for Mugabe......

    Going back to Trump and Muslims. Some Muslims are nasty pieces of work. As are some white people and some black people (eg aforementioned Mugabe) and some Republican Americans. No reasonable person would say that because of this, all Muslims, all white people and all black people and all Republican Americans are nasty pieces of work because that would be racist.

    Now, you might then decide you want to have a house party. Do you think that there would be anything ironic about wanting to invite some Republican Americans to that party but at the same time banning Donald Trump? Do you think that it would be exactly the same thing to just ban all Republican Americans from your party?

    I think it would be different. I don't think that it is ironic to want to ban an individual but to think that banning a race is something different. Infact, I would say that to think otherwise is racist. The whole point about racism is that it is the application of hatred to an entire race. There's nothing wrong with hating individuals. It's a good thing because why would you like bastards like Mugabe? They are horrible, worthless people. On the other hand, hating an entire race is wrong because most people are nice and don't deserve to be hated whatever their colour.

    So it's OK to hate Trump for wanting to ban Muslims and it's OK to not want him in your house for that reason and there's nothing inconsistent or ironic about that.

    But I still don't agree with the petition! And I probably still haven't explained myself well!

    Your not wrong there! i m stll not sure if you agree/or not with me, if you want to ban trump or not and if you want him to come to xmas dinner at yours?
  • mrfpbmrfpb Posts: 4,451
    So Trump came second in Iowa, which is pretty much his heartland - anti-establishment WASPs, he is unlikely to do so well in New Hampshire, which is more well disposed to the establishment . However its all about how long he takes to get the message that people won't vote for him before he pulls out of the race.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,980 Lives Here
    edited February 2016
    Not so sure New Hampshire is that much worse for Trump.

    Iowa is full of evangelicals and Cruz was doing his best fire-and-brimstone preaching there.

    New England is more secular mind-your-own-business which you'd expect to suit Trump more.

    Cruz isn't a conventional politician either remember.

    Rubio is the winner amongst the mainstream candidates (and will get the funding as a result)
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,980 Lives Here
    You'd expect Sanders to do worse than Clinton outside of Iowa too.
  • mrfpbmrfpb Posts: 4,451
    I agree, once the candidates reach a large state with a diverse population, the more liberal candidates will pull ahead. Even the large southern states have big Latino populations with votes, who Jeb Bush has being trying to appeal to. Cruz will do better in mobilising the right wing evangelicals, I don't think Trump's gross displays of wealth appeal to the more modest elements of evangelicalism.
    I read somewhere this week that Bill Clinton only won one out of the first twelve states on his way to being nominated, so I don't think Hilary will be massively worried. Sanders doesn't have the youthful clean sheet/Audacity of Hope story that Obama had. Nor does he have the appeal to the black churches that Bill Clinton won over, but who chose Obama over Hilary.
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,889
    Funny case is Bernie Sanders. Polls of the general public put him and Clinton neck-to-neck with the Republican candidates, but polls of the Democrats show that Clinton will get the presidential nomination. Pity, would have been nice to see a US president who isn't a warmonger or in the pockets of Wall Street.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,980 Lives Here
    He's quite populist on a number of less savoury issues however...
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,889
    Which ones in particular?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,980 Lives Here
    His voting record suggests he's a bit protectionist around low wage workers and has some questionable voting records on immigration (which he's trying to rectify in his campaign in fairness).

    Puts some of the blame of US poverty on immigration.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    Trump is an utter disgrace, but just look at the opposition.

    If you have a vote in the US elections, or know people that do I urge you to share this around.

    https://www.facebook.com/KnowPolitical/ ... 9/?fref=nf
  • pinnopinno Posts: 39,158
    joelsim wrote:
    Trump is an utter disgrace, but just look at the opposition.

    If you have a vote in the US elections, or know people that do I urge you to share this around.

    https://www.facebook.com/KnowPolitical/ ... 9/?fref=nf

    WTF, they're all a bunch of raving loons.
    S - https://i.pinimg.com/564x/35/cd/f1/35cdf125f02216d233fc9aa90f8607e6.jpg
    W - (still at Atlantic boulevard). Neill broke his collarbone.

    "Why are the tractors beeping in the night? I dunno woss goin' on"
    Tricky, 9yo
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