Donald Trump

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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,554
    morstar said:

    nickice said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    First.Aspect said:

    nickice said:

    kingstongraham said:

    nickice said:

    Would anyone be ready to consider that the killing of George Floyd is not a problem of racist police but police brutality? I ask this because he had a criminal history so police, once they knew that, were going to be more wary around him. That doesn't excuse the actions of the police but surely it might cast doubt on race being the primary factor.

    "more wary around him"?

    You don't think police would be more wary around someone with a history of violent offences? That doesn't excuse the brutality but it does mean we might not be looking at racism being the reason for it.
    He was being detained for using counterfeit money. There's no indication he was armed. There were 4 officers.

    At the very least this comes back to RC's point that if they are more predisposed to fear and certain presumptions due to his race, that's systematic racism.

    And for god's sake, the guy is dead. Not for committing a fairly petty crime, but for being a black whilst doing so.
    I am not saying they are not racist but the fact that 85 of them die a year can not help their mindset
    We can say they might be racist but surely that's as far as we can currently go.
    There is an observable pattern!

    Me being drunk one night is evidence I have been drunk.

    Me being drunk with regularity may suggest I have a drinking problem.

    This. I've seen various black writers comment that one of the most exhausting aspects of racism is being asked to prove that each and every incident really was racially aggravated. Maybe this or that incident was "just" someone being an a*sehole but when it happens again and again and again, there's a pattern.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    edited June 2020
    From 2017

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-nfl-protests-may-be-unpopular-now-but-that-doesnt-mean-theyll-end-that-way/
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    Pross said:

    nickice said:

    Would anyone be ready to consider that the killing of George Floyd is not a problem of racist police but police brutality? I ask this because he had a criminal history so police, once they knew that, were going to be more wary around him. That doesn't excuse the actions of the police but surely it might cast doubt on race being the primary factor.

    Don't you find it odd that in almost all the well publicised instances of police brutality the victim tends to be black? That seems to be the case in the UK as well as the US. Now it could be that there are loads of unreported cases of white criminals dying at the hands of the police or it could be that they are far more likely to treat black criminals disproportionately violently.

    The media goes with the what they think will be the biggest story. I'm not saying there aren't racist police officers but it's dangerous to always see racism as a factor
    or the primary factor in every case of police brutality.

    That will be self-perpetuating as every time a black man is unjustly killed by police, it will go down as a racist incident. When this happens again people will point to George Floyd's death as evidence of racism. It might be but it might not be.

    There have been several instances of deaths publicised by the media which have either turned out to be justified (Michael Brown, for example) or have been committed/partly committed by black police officers (Freddie Gray). And of course there are white victims (I posted one above) of brutality but that doesn't get as much attention.

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,167
    nickice said:

    Pross said:

    nickice said:

    Would anyone be ready to consider that the killing of George Floyd is not a problem of racist police but police brutality? I ask this because he had a criminal history so police, once they knew that, were going to be more wary around him. That doesn't excuse the actions of the police but surely it might cast doubt on race being the primary factor.

    Don't you find it odd that in almost all the well publicised instances of police brutality the victim tends to be black? That seems to be the case in the UK as well as the US. Now it could be that there are loads of unreported cases of white criminals dying at the hands of the police or it could be that they are far more likely to treat black criminals disproportionately violently.

    The media goes with the what they think will be the biggest story. I'm not saying there aren't racist police officers but it's dangerous to always see racism as a factor
    or the primary factor in every case of police brutality.

    That will be self-perpetuating as every time a black man is unjustly killed by police, it will go down as a racist incident. When this happens again people will point to George Floyd's death as evidence of racism. It might be but it might not be.

    There have been several instances of deaths publicised by the media which have either turned out to be justified (Michael Brown, for example) or have been committed/partly committed by black police officers (Freddie Gray). And of course there are white victims (I posted one above) of brutality but that doesn't get as much attention.

    You guys need to look at the overall stats. For sure there is some man bites dog Vs dog bites man with the reporting here, but are black men in the us really 600% more likely to be criminal than white men?
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    First.Aspect said:

    nickice said:

    Pross said:

    nickice said:

    Would anyone be ready to consider that the killing of George Floyd is not a problem of racist police but police brutality? I ask this because he had a criminal history so police, once they knew that, were going to be more wary around him. That doesn't excuse the actions of the police but surely it might cast doubt on race being the primary factor.

    Don't you find it odd that in almost all the well publicised instances of police brutality the victim tends to be black? That seems to be the case in the UK as well as the US. Now it could be that there are loads of unreported cases of white criminals dying at the hands of the police or it could be that they are far more likely to treat black criminals disproportionately violently.

    The media goes with the what they think will be the biggest story. I'm not saying there aren't racist police officers but it's dangerous to always see racism as a factor
    or the primary factor in every case of police brutality.

    That will be self-perpetuating as every time a black man is unjustly killed by police, it will go down as a racist incident. When this happens again people will point to George Floyd's death as evidence of racism. It might be but it might not be.

    There have been several instances of deaths publicised by the media which have either turned out to be justified (Michael Brown, for example) or have been committed/partly committed by black police officers (Freddie Gray). And of course there are white victims (I posted one above) of brutality but that doesn't get as much attention.

    You guys need to look at the overall stats. For sure there is some man bites dog Vs dog bites man with the reporting here, but are black men in the us really 600% more likely to be criminal than white men?

    Blacks commit a disproportionate number of violent crimes. Probably because of socioeconomic factors. Very very few Americans are killed in police custody.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    pinno said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It's easy to pin this all on trump but it's not really to do with him. The police might be a bit more emboldened by him and the racists in it might feel they have more room to be racist, but this is as old as America.

    If you look at what the consequences are for US police breaking the rules and what even the rules are for dealing with people, you wouldn't believe it.

    I mean, if you wanted to go around killing people, and i mean this quite seriously, why wouldn't you get into the US police force?

    By the same token, some police have been kneeling.
    Not enough unfortunately.
    Wow. Poor guy starts bleeding from his ear immediately, not a good sign. Staggering that they are united in defending this.
    Genuinely, if you look at what the police argument is against accountability it’s basically “no one would be a policeman if we were held accountable for all our actions”
    I am posting this so you can try and understand the viewpoint of a cop.

    A mate of mine used to be a firearms officer in the UK. His idea of a bad day is not a bollocking from the boss but being killed. He volunteered so knew the risk.

    Anyway one day an armed robber had fled into a light industrial estate still clutching his shotgun. Our hero saw him run round the end of a building and hit him in the face with the butt of his rifle.

    Tea and medals all round you would think, oh no he spent the next 18 months facing charges that would have seen him banged up, not ideal for a copper.

    He was let off and quit.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,349
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    pinno said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It's easy to pin this all on trump but it's not really to do with him. The police might be a bit more emboldened by him and the racists in it might feel they have more room to be racist, but this is as old as America.

    If you look at what the consequences are for US police breaking the rules and what even the rules are for dealing with people, you wouldn't believe it.

    I mean, if you wanted to go around killing people, and i mean this quite seriously, why wouldn't you get into the US police force?

    By the same token, some police have been kneeling.
    Not enough unfortunately.
    Wow. Poor guy starts bleeding from his ear immediately, not a good sign. Staggering that they are united in defending this.
    Genuinely, if you look at what the police argument is against accountability it’s basically “no one would be a policeman if we were held accountable for all our actions”
    I am posting this so you can try and understand the viewpoint of a cop.

    A mate of mine used to be a firearms officer in the UK. His idea of a bad day is not a bollocking from the boss but being killed. He volunteered so knew the risk.

    Anyway one day an armed robber had fled into a light industrial estate still clutching his shotgun. Our hero saw him run round the end of a building and hit him in the face with the butt of his rifle.

    Tea and medals all round you would think, oh no he spent the next 18 months facing charges that would have seen him banged up, not ideal for a copper.

    He was let off and quit.

    The flip-side to that is that killings by UK police are vanishingly rare. In an average year, more people are killed by US police in the first 35 days of a year than have been killed by UK police in 35 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom

    It might not be great for individual UK police such as your friend, but the fact that each one will be put under the microscope must have an effect on the figures.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • florerider
    florerider Posts: 1,112
    Difficult as Brits to understand both the racism and violence of the US.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,328
    florerider said:

    Difficult as Brits to understand both the racism and violence of the US.

    100%. Unless the author has been a witness to an arrest in the U.S. at least then it is all just conjecture and p!ssing in the wind.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Like school shootings I tend to listen to all the hot air and marvel at people’s naivety that they think this time will be different.

    My employer has a lot of staff in America and they are very insistent that staying silent is not an option and that we have to stand up and be counted.

    I think we could be watching a game changer up there with the likes of Rosa Parks
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited June 2020
    surrey_commuter said:

    Like school shootings I tend to listen to all the hot air and marvel at people’s naivety that they think this time will be different.

    My employer has a lot of staff in America and they are very insistent that staying silent is not an option and that we have to stand up and be counted.

    I think we could be watching a game changer up there with the likes of Rosa Parks

    Until an obvious leader surfaces i can’t see it moving into anything material, not least as it is election year.

    The most obvious route, and I still think it’s unlikely, is Biden is elected and makes it his obamacare.
    _
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    One can hope.
  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 4,023
    Trump is the best current living example of the saying 'Poor people are crazy, rich people are eccentric.' Anyone without wealth wouldn't be given the time of day if they were heard talking like he does, he would either be mocked, pitied or given a fundraiser for mental health care. He is legitimised purely by an inheritance.

    The only upside is seeing first hand incidents from past history played out in front of you, it is truly fascinating to be alive and witness a person like that be elected in to the highest office of such a powerful country.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,349
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Like school shootings I tend to listen to all the hot air and marvel at people’s naivety that they think this time will be different.

    My employer has a lot of staff in America and they are very insistent that staying silent is not an option and that we have to stand up and be counted.

    I think we could be watching a game changer up there with the likes of Rosa Parks

    Until an obvious leader surfaces i can’t see it moving into anything material, not least as it is election year.

    The most obvious route, and I still think it’s unlikely, is Biden is elected and makes it his obamacare.

    On the plus side, the NRA is in some trouble, though I realise that America's gun culture goes way way deeper than that.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,328
    briantrumpet said:


    On the plus side, the NRA is in some trouble, though I realise that America's gun culture goes way way deeper than that.

    On that note, I did appreciate this post from a friend on that side of the Atlantic. At best it is funny, at worst it is true.
    .

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Systemic racism (US) explained.

    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2745368975685853

    Facebook unfortunately but thought this was quite interesting.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Pross said:

    nickice said:

    Would anyone be ready to consider that the killing of George Floyd is not a problem of racist police but police brutality? I ask this because he had a criminal history so police, once they knew that, were going to be more wary around him. That doesn't excuse the actions of the police but surely it might cast doubt on race being the primary factor.

    Don't you find it odd that in almost all the well publicised instances of police brutality the victim tends to be black? That seems to be the case in the UK as well as the US. Now it could be that there are loads of unreported cases of white criminals dying at the hands of the police or it could be that they are far more likely to treat black criminals disproportionately violently.

    The impression I get of the USA I get is that if younare black you better be extremely wary of how you act around the police. I have no stats or personal experience but yes it does appear that way. This video shows how things can escalate https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9SZlypyK-4

    Not sure it's right to say the same of the UK though. Stats show that of those in custody you are are more likely to die if you are white than if you are black - you can google it. Now that doesn't prove anything 100% but it does suggest that black criminals in the UK are not being brutalised - at least at a rate higher than white criminals. Of course there may be other factors. My take is that we watch so much US news and TV some people are now reacting to it as if it has happened here .
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    morstar said:

    Systemic racism (US) explained.

    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2745368975685853

    Facebook unfortunately but thought this was quite interesting.

    Fairly accurate picture of America right there. The issue for the UK BLM protests is how systemically racist do they think Britain is. We have a centrally funded school system where we even give extra money to schools with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. We have a national health service that will do a good job of looking after you if something significant goes wrong. So it seems to me that it is only peoples bias that is left to solve. This is not a state issue.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    DeVlaeminck said:

    Pross said:

    nickice said:

    Would anyone be ready to consider that the killing of George Floyd is not a problem of racist police but police brutality? I ask this because he had a criminal history so police, once they knew that, were going to be more wary around him. That doesn't excuse the actions of the police but surely it might cast doubt on race being the primary factor.

    Don't you find it odd that in almost all the well publicised instances of police brutality the victim tends to be black? That seems to be the case in the UK as well as the US. Now it could be that there are loads of unreported cases of white criminals dying at the hands of the police or it could be that they are far more likely to treat black criminals disproportionately violently.

    The impression I get of the USA I get is that if younare black you better be extremely wary of how you act around the police. I have no stats or personal experience but yes it does appear that way. This video shows how things can escalate https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9SZlypyK-4

    Not sure it's right to say the same of the UK though. Stats show that of those in custody you are are more likely to die if you are white than if you are black - you can google it. Now that doesn't prove anything 100% but it does suggest that black criminals in the UK are not being brutalised - at least at a rate higher than white criminals. Of course there may be other factors. My take is that we watch so much US news and TV some people are now reacting to it as if it has happened here .
    Cops pick on smart kid.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    john80 said:

    morstar said:

    Systemic racism (US) explained.

    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2745368975685853

    Facebook unfortunately but thought this was quite interesting.

    Fairly accurate picture of America right there. The issue for the UK BLM protests is how systemically racist do they think Britain is. We have a centrally funded school system where we even give extra money to schools with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. We have a national health service that will do a good job of looking after you if something significant goes wrong. So it seems to me that it is only peoples bias that is left to solve. This is not a state issue.
    U.K. policing is properly racist.
    _
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    I'd be interested in what the demands of the protesters in the UK are. I thought initially it was to protest police racism and brutality in the USA - the first protests were outside the US embassy.

    If they are now saying it's a protest against racism in the UK or the UK police what measures are they asking for and what exactly are they protesting against ?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    DeVlaeminck said:

    I'd be interested in what the demands of the protesters in the UK are. I thought initially it was to protest police racism and brutality in the USA - the first protests were outside the US embassy.

    If they are now saying it's a protest against racism in the UK or the UK police what measures are they asking for and what exactly are they protesting against ?

    They are not worth wasting time and effort on.

    They are an anarchist love-child of XR & Momentum. The mask is slipping on this every day.

    The only good thing they have done is put the lockdown loonies back in their boxes :smiley:
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    DeVlaeminck said:

    I'd be interested in what the demands of the protesters in the UK are. I thought initially it was to protest police racism and brutality in the USA - the first protests were outside the US embassy.

    If they are now saying it's a protest against racism in the UK or the UK police what measures are they asking for and what exactly are they protesting against ?

    1700 people in the last 30 years died in custody and not a single policeman has been prosecuted.

    That seems odd to me.
    _
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    rick_chasey said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    I'd be interested in what the demands of the protesters in the UK are. I thought initially it was to protest police racism and brutality in the USA - the first protests were outside the US embassy.

    If they are now saying it's a protest against racism in the UK or the UK police what measures are they asking for and what exactly are they protesting against ?

    1700 people in the last 30 years died in custody and not a single policeman has been prosecuted.

    That seems odd to me.
    That's a police brutality/inadequate safeguards issue. Not a race issue. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1122775/deaths-in-police-custody-in-the-uk-2019-by-ethnicity/

    Blacks might be over represented but Asians are underrepresented.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    I think it's also a result of the demise in mental health care. It feels like a lot of the highly publicised deaths in police custody in the UK are reported to have mental health issues such as schizophrenia which may result in police using greater force than normal to subdue them.

    Take a look at the difference in how we police public gatherings over here. Protests and marches are usually policed with a very light touch by officers in normal uniform who are usually good humoured. There were some complaints of heavy handedness at Extinction Rebellion protests just because the stepped in to arrest people. The heavy mob are usually kept around the corner and will react if a protest gets hijacked and turns violent but even then the use of measures such as CS gas, rubber bullets and water cannons are almost unheard of. At risk of sounding like a flag waving, Brexiteer patriot the UK police are among the best in the world at public order policing and many other aspects (lots of forces have used the UK approach to murder investigation for example). I have a lot of friends in the police from constable to superintendent level and can honestly say I have never heard them make any racist remarks even in jest after a few drinks.

    The US system is weird from well organised, metropolitan police forces such as NYPD to the stereotype redneck hillbilly sheriff departments with a load of deputies appointed from his family with very little oversight. Some towns / counties even contract in their law enforcement from adjacent areas or don't have specialist services like homicide departments. I think 20% are military veterans and suspect that in smaller forces that is much higher.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    morstar said:

    Systemic racism (US) explained.

    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2745368975685853

    Facebook unfortunately but thought this was quite interesting.

    Fairly accurate picture of America right there. The issue for the UK BLM protests is how systemically racist do they think Britain is. We have a centrally funded school system where we even give extra money to schools with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. We have a national health service that will do a good job of looking after you if something significant goes wrong. So it seems to me that it is only peoples bias that is left to solve. This is not a state issue.
    U.K. policing is properly racist.
    I know at least 10 people who work for the police and not one of them has acted or spoken in a manner that make me think they are racists. Now i have spent quite a bit of time in there company and often on the sauce where peoples inhibitions are lower. I think you might be over egging the pudding there somewhat. I remain to be convinced by evidence that the police are more racist than the general population. I await your evidence with interest.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    morstar said:

    Systemic racism (US) explained.

    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2745368975685853

    Facebook unfortunately but thought this was quite interesting.

    Fairly accurate picture of America right there. The issue for the UK BLM protests is how systemically racist do they think Britain is. We have a centrally funded school system where we even give extra money to schools with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. We have a national health service that will do a good job of looking after you if something significant goes wrong. So it seems to me that it is only peoples bias that is left to solve. This is not a state issue.
    U.K. policing is properly racist.
    I know at least 10 people who work for the police and not one of them has acted or spoken in a manner that make me think they are racists. Now i have spent quite a bit of time in there company and often on the sauce where peoples inhibitions are lower. I think you might be over egging the pudding there somewhat. I remain to be convinced by evidence that the police are more racist than the general population. I await your evidence with interest.
    To be fair he sets a very low bar for racism.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    Who might be the more racist? A professional UK policeperson or an average UK flag waving Brexiteer little Ingerlaander? Just for context as there seems to be a lot of finger pointing towards the former.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    morstar said:

    Systemic racism (US) explained.

    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2745368975685853

    Facebook unfortunately but thought this was quite interesting.

    Fairly accurate picture of America right there. The issue for the UK BLM protests is how systemically racist do they think Britain is. We have a centrally funded school system where we even give extra money to schools with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. We have a national health service that will do a good job of looking after you if something significant goes wrong. So it seems to me that it is only peoples bias that is left to solve. This is not a state issue.
    U.K. policing is properly racist.
    I know at least 10 people who work for the police and not one of them has acted or spoken in a manner that make me think they are racists. Now i have spent quite a bit of time in there company and often on the sauce where peoples inhibitions are lower. I think you might be over egging the pudding there somewhat. I remain to be convinced by evidence that the police are more racist than the general population. I await your evidence with interest.
    Does the Macphearson report mean anything to you?

    Or the fact the leading black met officer has said the police is still institutionally racist?

    Or that black people are 4x more likely to be subject to a stop and search?

    And that despite making up only 3% of the population they are involved in 12% of instances of police violence?

    Or that black people are twice as likely to die in police custody?

    Or that police use tasers on block people 4x as often than others?

    Come on. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
    _
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    morstar said:

    Systemic racism (US) explained.

    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2745368975685853

    Facebook unfortunately but thought this was quite interesting.

    Fairly accurate picture of America right there. The issue for the UK BLM protests is how systemically racist do they think Britain is. We have a centrally funded school system where we even give extra money to schools with kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. We have a national health service that will do a good job of looking after you if something significant goes wrong. So it seems to me that it is only peoples bias that is left to solve. This is not a state issue.
    U.K. policing is properly racist.
    I know at least 10 people who work for the police and not one of them has acted or spoken in a manner that make me think they are racists. Now i have spent quite a bit of time in there company and often on the sauce where peoples inhibitions are lower. I think you might be over egging the pudding there somewhat. I remain to be convinced by evidence that the police are more racist than the general population. I await your evidence with interest.
    Does the Macphearson report mean anything to you?

    Or the fact the leading black met officer has said the police is still institutionally racist?

    Or that black people are 4x more likely to be subject to a stop and search?

    And that despite making up only 3% of the population they are involved in 12% of instances of police violence?

    Or that black people are twice as likely to die in police custody?

    Or that police use tasers on block people 4x as often than others?

    Come on. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
    What have you seen with your own eyes?

    The problem is that you lump in valid points with statistics that only give half the story. Before we can make any judgement on it we'd need to see the crime statistics for crimes committed by black people.

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