Donald Trump
Comments
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wishitwasallflat wrote:Pinno wrote:America - there is a huge number of gun touting Americans intent on keeping their guns despite the increasing atrocities. There is still a huge black/white divide. There is still a huge underclass. They still don't have a health care system because 'not having a choice of doctor' would be akin to Communism even if he was free.. etc etc The term 'Rednecks' is a general term that I have used for the gun touting, knee-jerk sector of society. If you want me to use a different term, just let me know.
I could live with you using the term American.
...and have the PC brigade shout 'referee'? It's a pity we have to live in a world where the PC stifle debate by pulling the PC card out.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Stuff the PC brigade - and carry on.Pinno wrote:wishitwasallflat wrote:Pinno wrote:America - there is a huge number of gun touting Americans intent on keeping their guns despite the increasing atrocities. There is still a huge black/white divide. There is still a huge underclass. They still don't have a health care system because 'not having a choice of doctor' would be akin to Communism even if he was free.. etc etc The term 'Rednecks' is a general term that I have used for the gun touting, knee-jerk sector of society. If you want me to use a different term, just let me know.
I could live with you using the term American.
...and have the PC brigade shout 'referee'? It's a pity we have to live in a world where the PC stifle debate by pulling the PC card out."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I am curious.wishitwasallflat wrote:Pinno wrote:America - there is a huge number of gun touting Americans intent on keeping their guns despite the increasing atrocities. There is still a huge black/white divide. There is still a huge underclass. They still don't have a health care system because 'not having a choice of doctor' would be akin to Communism even if he was free.. etc etc The term 'Rednecks' is a general term that I have used for the gun touting, knee-jerk sector of society. If you want me to use a different term, just let me know.
I could live with you using the term American.
Does that mean that you cannot go on living if he uses the term "Redneck"?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I couldn't believe my eyes just now. There may be a new candidate for London Mayor that makes Trump look relatively sane.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-357448370 -
Veronese68 wrote:I couldn't believe my eyes just now. There may be a new candidate for London Mayor that makes Trump look relatively sane.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35744837
Musicians known for their music and talent, Lemmy & Bowie are dead and this self righteous c0ckend is still breathing and spouting crap while publicising himself. I mean what's a semi official site for himself all about?“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
Veronese68 wrote:I couldn't believe my eyes just now. There may be a new candidate for London Mayor that makes Trump look relatively sane.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35744837
i dont know, could he be any more of a clown than the guy in charge now?0 -
Veronese68 wrote:I couldn't believe my eyes just now. There may be a new candidate for London Mayor that makes Trump look relatively sane.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35744837
That would bring about panic on the streets of London.0 -
Pross wrote:Veronese68 wrote:I couldn't believe my eyes just now. There may be a new candidate for London Mayor that makes Trump look relatively sane.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35744837
That would bring about panic on the streets of London.
Very good.
To answer the question, yes, he would be significantly worse than Boris or any of the other clowns in power. The bloke is completely deluded.0 -
Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/2/bryan-pagliano-hillary-clinton-worker-cooperating-/
Can't see this making it to any court before November. What price it being swept under the carpet if she wins?
Quite telling that most comments concern the well being of Pagliano and people would not be surprised if he didn't reach old age.
Ah well. Mr Carpet, meet Mr Broom
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/02/polit ... index.html0 -
Hardly a scientific study but...
My mum and dad were talking to some coherent Americans whilst on holiday recently. They were genuinely worried by Trump but, whilst seeing him as totally unelectable, the alternative of Clinton really doesn't sit comfortably with them. It's a real rock and hard place decision for many.
Land of the free and opportunity and yet 4 of the last 5 presidents will have come from 2 families if HC wins. I think our democracy has some significant shortfalls but I'm glad our politicians come in many shapes and sizes and leadership contests rarely go to the form book.0 -
Hopefully praising Putin will go down badly with those who are usually Trump's right wing cheerleaders. They tend to not like those damned Commies although maybe they'll cotton on that he is actually another far right ultra nationalist.0
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President Tim Kaine anyone?
He has a strong Catholic religious background. (He was a missionary out of college.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html
Lord have mercy!
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The Americans love that 'strong bible background' stuff. I doubt any candidate would ever be president if they were outwardly agnostic including those close by.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
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Joelsim wrote:Pinno wrote:The Americans love that 'strong bible background' stuff. I doubt any candidate would ever be president if they were outwardly agnostic including those close by.
Yup. Complete religious lunatics. Dangerous, worrying and most of all sad and depraved.
My British wife's sister lives in Colorado, they are both christians, so is my American brother-in-law, however, I am not religious in the slightest. But I do think that kind of generalised bigotry is disturbing.0 -
joe2008 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Pinno wrote:The Americans love that 'strong bible background' stuff. I doubt any candidate would ever be president if they were outwardly agnostic including those close by.
Yup. Complete religious lunatics. Dangerous, worrying and most of all sad and depraved.
My British wife's sister lives in Colorado, they are both christians, so is my American brother-in-law, however, I am not religious in the slightest. But I do think that kind of generalised bigotry is disturbing.
Errr... Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Napalm, Union Carbide, the Iran Contras scandal... Not to mention 11,208 gun related homicides per annum (latest figures; 2013), Columbine, Waco ... etc etc.
For my twopence worth, I know of a lot of Americans* - peace loving woolly Liberals (as they are referred to by their countrymen) and they are worried about the rise of Trump. They are also dismayed by the resistance for gun control.
*Oh and one of them wrote a book:
Available from all good booksellers. If you ask me nicely, i'll get him to sign it for you:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Crusade-N ... 0595379443seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
joe2008 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Pinno wrote:The Americans love that 'strong bible background' stuff. I doubt any candidate would ever be president if they were outwardly agnostic including those close by.
Yup. Complete religious lunatics. Dangerous, worrying and most of all sad and depraved.
My British wife's sister lives in Colorado, they are both christians, so is my American brother-in-law, however, I am not religious in the slightest. But I do think that kind of generalised bigotry is disturbing.
Well, when you consider the damage that religion has caused, far more than anything else, it's understandable.
Sorry if it offends, but my bigoted beliefs are that if you're religious you're a sandwich short. Brainwashed, if you like, and not in a good way.
Perhaps ask them some questions and delve deeply about what they really think about homosexuality, other religions, the role of religion in war, what species is god, what colour was Jesus, why they believe in something that is plainly a figment of their imagination, why they feel if god is so good he allows all this revolting stuff to happen...I bet you get some crazy answers that'll leave you with your mouth agape.
Furthermore ask them what else they could be doing on a Sunday morning. Animals, who are supposedly much less intelligent than us don't waste their time in church.0 -
Bertrand Russell, God is a chocolate tea pot.
Quote "He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong. Russell's teapot is still invoked in discussions concerning the existence of God, and in various other contexts."seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Pinno wrote:Bertrand Russell, God is a chocolate tea pot.
Quote "He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong. Russell's teapot is still invoked in discussions concerning the existence of God, and in various other contexts."
I can't handle the rubbish you spout. Plain to see that I shouldn't milk it any more for puns and put a lid on it.0 -
Pinno wrote:
Errr... Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Napalm, Union Carbide, the Iran Contras scandal... Not to mention 11,208 gun related homicides per annum (latest figures; 2013), Columbine, Waco ... etc etc.
Well, being British I'm not exactly proud of our past: The British Empire, The Boer Wars, The Partitioning of India, The Amritsar Massacre, Kenya: Mau Mau Uprising, Ireland through 8 centuries of colonial occupation and genocide, The Slave Trade, Australian Aborigines, Native Americans...Joelsim wrote:Well, when you consider the damage that religion has caused, far more than anything else, it's understandable.
Sorry if it offends, but my bigoted beliefs are that if you're religious you're a sandwich short. Brainwashed, if you like, and not in a good way.
Perhaps ask them some questions and delve deeply about what they really think about homosexuality, other religions, the role of religion in war, what species is god, what colour was Jesus, why they believe in something that is plainly a figment of their imagination, why they feel if god is so good he allows all this revolting stuff to happen...I bet you get some crazy answers that'll leave you with your mouth agape.
Furthermore ask them what else they could be doing on a Sunday morning. Animals, who are supposedly much less intelligent than us don't waste their time in church.
On the whole I agree.
So, I asked my wife what she thinks, and her view is that although she calls herself a Christian she does not believe that organised religion is a good thing, to her it is more about a personal spiritual journey.0 -
joe2008 wrote:Pinno wrote:
Errr... Hiroshima... Waco ... etc etc.
Well, being British I'm not exactly proud of our past: The British Empire, The Boer Wars, The Partitioning of India, The Amritsar Massacre, Kenya: Mau Mau Uprising, Ireland through 8 centuries of colonial occupation and genocide, The Slave Trade, Australian Aborigines, Native Americans...Joelsim wrote:Well...church.
On the whole I agree.
So...journey.
Beat ourselves up for all we like about having the last great Empire - sure, if you want to deploy a flawed moral relativism and you want to take the media line.
India: The Raj invited us in.
Mau mau uprising: The Mau Mau was not an uprising against the British contrary to popular and misguided, misquoted and distorted belief.
I will go into some detail, from infanticide to the maiming of livestock by the Mau Mau. Considering how brutal and totally unconnected some of the violence and atrocities committed by the Mau Mau were to the control of Kenya, the British showed remarkable restraint. I would not have imprisoned the main protagonists, I would have had them executed.
Warning, the following is shocking. So if you are sensitive, do not read any further.
Ukora island, Lake Victoria: There was a nunnery which were taking in victims and displaced native women of the uprising. The Mau Mau crossed the water and to cut it short, killed everyone on the Island. Left dead foetus's on sticks.
My father fought the Mau Mau. He spent 1 year in a convalescent home in New Zealand from 1960 to 1961 recovering from the atrocities that he had witnessed or the things he had to deal with in the aftermath of atrocities.
The Mau Mau were too stupid to recognise the difference between Dutch/European origin settlers (farmers) and used to target them as if they had any influence on the British (perhaps this is actually an indicator it was an non-political uprising). Their favourite game was to cut the Achilles tendons of cattle and sheep with machete's and the farmer would have to put the animals down by shooting them. Then the carcasses would be dragged off in the nigh by the Mau Mau until the remaining one's were putrid and inedible. Stuff scrubbed conveniently from the history books because of political correctness gone silly and because no one wants to recall such matters else also, we may learn from it.
You may argue that the Mau Mau were indeed an uprising against the British and you will not be short of plenty of evidence that claims their methods and their actions were to this effect but you cannot in any shape of form justify nor comprehend their brutality. It was an uprising just like Rwanda but the world never learned.
The era of Empire: The Dutch were at it, the Belgians, The Germans, The French and so on and so on. The difference being we were good at it. It was either expand or suffer. It was the way of the world then. It might not be now but it was then. Traditional empire has been replaced by a global empire of materialism and markets. An empire that knows no boundaries, obligates millions of people into poverty, sucks up natural resources to a completely unsustainable level - like the decimation of the elephant population to the the jungles of Indonesia, (habitat of the orang utan) whilst a minority percentage of the world live in luxury.
Meanwhile, in this wonderful post empirical world, super powers play on the chess board that is Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq etc etc and people are dying and suffering whilst we look on helplessly.
If the History of just one colonial territory is so badly misrepresented, it throws into doubt a lot of other history. Political Correctness prevents us from having real debate and being able to draw philosophical conclusion.
Read 500 Nations. Was it the British who annihilated the Red Indians? Are you sure?
How can you say you are not proud of the what the British did? You're far too young to have had any influence on British Foreign Policy during the years of Empire. What a stupid, vain and inverted sense of dubious moral self-promotion.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Pinno wrote:joe2008 wrote:Pinno wrote:
Errr... Hiroshima... Waco ... etc etc.
Well, being British I'm not exactly proud of our past: The British Empire, The Boer Wars, The Partitioning of India, The Amritsar Massacre, Kenya: Mau Mau Uprising, Ireland through 8 centuries of colonial occupation and genocide, The Slave Trade, Australian Aborigines, Native Americans...Joelsim wrote:Well...church.
On the whole I agree.
So...journey.
Beat ourselves up for all we like about having the last great Empire - sure, if you want to deploy a flawed moral relativism and you want to take the media line.
India: The Raj invited us in.
Mau mau uprising: The Mau Mau was not an uprising against the British contrary to popular and misguided, misquoted and distorted belief.
I will go into some detail, from infanticide to the maiming of livestock by the Mau Mau. Considering how brutal and totally unconnected some of the violence and atrocities committed by the Mau Mau were to the control of Kenya, the British showed remarkable restraint. I would not have imprisoned the main protagonists, I would have had them executed.
Warning, the following is shocking. So if you are sensitive, do not read any further.
Ukora island, Lake Victoria: There was a nunnery which were taking in victims and displaced native women of the uprising. The Mau Mau crossed the water and to cut it short, killed everyone on the Island. Left dead foetus's on sticks.
My father fought the Mau Mau. He spent 1 year in a convalescent home in New Zealand from 1960 to 1961 recovering from the atrocities that he had witnessed or the things he had to deal with in the aftermath of atrocities.
The Mau Mau were too stupid to recognise the difference between Dutch/European origin settlers (farmers) and used to target them as if they had any influence on the British (perhaps this is actually an indicator it was an non-political uprising). Their favourite game was to cut the Achilles tendons of cattle and sheep with machete's and the farmer would have to put the animals down by shooting them. Then the carcasses would be dragged off in the nigh by the Mau Mau until the remaining one's were putrid and inedible. Stuff scrubbed conveniently from the history books because of political correctness gone silly and because no one wants to recall such matters else also, we may learn from it.
You may argue that the Mau Mau were indeed an uprising against the British and you will not be short of plenty of evidence that claims their methods and their actions were to this effect but you cannot in any shape of form justify nor comprehend their brutality. It was an uprising just like Rwanda but the world never learned.
The era of Empire: The Dutch were at it, the Belgians, The Germans, The French and so on and so on. The difference being we were good at it. It was either expand or suffer. It was the way of the world then. It might not be now but it was then. Traditional empire has been replaced by a global empire of materialism and markets. An empire that knows no boundaries, obligates millions of people into poverty, sucks up natural resources to a completely unsustainable level - like the decimation of the elephant population to the the jungles of Indonesia, (habitat of the orang utan) whilst a minority percentage of the world live in luxury.
Meanwhile, in this wonderful post empirical world, super powers play on the chess board that is Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq etc etc and people are dying and suffering whilst we look on helplessly.
If the History of just one colonial territory is so badly misrepresented, it throws into doubt a lot of other history. Political Correctness prevents us from having real debate and being able to draw philosophical conclusion.
Read 500 Nations. Was it the British who annihilated the Red Indians? Are you sure?
How can you say you are not proud of the what the British did? You're far too young to have had any influence on British Foreign Policy during the years of Empire. What a stupid, vain and inverted sense of dubious moral self-promotion.
I've logged in especially just to say that, with a bit of authority from studying this alongside respected experts on this topic, this is genuine, self delusional sh!te.
I like to use this analogy to describe British imperialism.
You're sitting at home with your family, wife, 3 children, when a big man from another very rich town comes in with a gun, and decides that because he's richer than you, he's going to commandeer your house.
He beats up your wife, so you know he means business, and maybe shoots one of your more unruly children in the foot to leave you in no doubt he will kill if he needs to. He then takes all the nice furniture you have to send back to his place and insists on watching his own TV. He'll demand you feed him and clean the place (after all, you're slovenly), and he commandeers the bedroom, so you can live in the basement.
He'll then set about rebuilding the house, because it's the style of poor people, not rich people. So he'll knock down the wall between the living room & kitchen that held all your family pictures up - they get lost in the collateral. He builds a big, tasteless gauche swimming pool where your dining room was, because you don't need it, but he decides you're not worthy of swimming in it, so you end up with no dining room to eat your meals.
Finally, your teenage son has enough and he kicks off - he feels it's unfair this guy can just come in with a big gun, threaten violence, turning the family into servants for no reason. He deciding to wreck the pool and goes for the TV. The man then shoots your son in the head, because your son's considered too brutal because he's destroying what the man is trying to achieve.
What you say about Mau Mau is genuine propganda boll*cks. What you say about India is also b*llocks.
There's a lot of b*llocks being spoken, and it's coming from you.0 -
Your analogy is wrong Rick. I'm not even going to start to unpick it.
Did you live in Kenya? Did your parents live in East Africa during the uprising?
The main flaw to your analogy is that you are attempting (very poorly) to cast a modern scenario on a historical occurrence where the back drop is totally different.
As an aside, you have failed to tell me that the post-empirical world is better then our current one.
You are suckered into the moral relativism of what is morally accessible now versus what was morally acceptable then.
Get off your PC wagon. Your post is even more riddled with the emotive than mine.
Let's you and I have a quick argument in moral relativism.
(Nothing to do with Empire)
I'll ask you this question: Is infanticide wrong?seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Ah so you have family who were there?
So there's a self declared interest in making out the locals were the brutal ones, not the occupiers?
Then perhaps your heavy use of the propaganda used at the time makes more sense.
I have no interest in comparing eras, but to brush off crimes against humanity as 'the way of the world then' misses the point. Those things occurred, and it is one of the purposes of history to frame the past in the current discourse - the current discourse is that the massacres are war crimes, as were sackings, torture and sexual assault. There are populations of certain local groups that have never recovered from the massacres, such as one of the Mombassa dwarf population.
In the 50s, post Holocaust and during a time Britain criticised the Soviet Union for its Gulags, the Brits held 100,000s of locals in concentration camps and millions held in 'enclosed villages'. Torture in this places, including the cutting off of the ear, pouring fuel on suspects & burning them, is now well documented. Those 5 guys who brought the case to the UK courts, which ultimately ruled in the locals favour? 2 of them had been castrated during torture.
Mau Mau is quite rightly judged to be one of the nadirs of British occupation, because of the excessive use of force and violence, and use of methods and practices that are not appropriate in any situation.
I don't see why 'political correctness' is a) being used as an insult towards me, and b) that you can't see that your airbrushed version is not in fact more 'politically correct', as it brushes over truths that make you uncomfortable.0 -
Pinno wrote:
Read 500 Nations. Was it the British who annihilated the Red Indians? Are you sure?
I didn't say anything about annihilating the Red Indians... however, it is well documented that British officers, including the top British commanding generals, ordered, sanctioned, paid for and conducted the use of smallpox against the Native Americans.0 -
Have a read of the Dawkins book 'The God Delusion'. The famous tea pot gets a mention. As you say you can't logically disprove its (or Gods) existence but you can demonstrate that they are extremely improbable.Pinno wrote:Bertrand Russell, God is a chocolate tea pot.
Quote "He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong. Russell's teapot is still invoked in discussions concerning the existence of God, and in various other contexts.""I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Just as a personal aside, my old man was RAF ground crew in his late teens at the end of WW2. He was told that post Germany surrendering, if the war in the Pacific continued he was likely to get shipped out there to help the US fight the Japanese. Aside from the point that the fatalities/casualties of that course of action would likely have massively exceeded those from the two A bombs dropped, there is the small point that I might not be here if it weren't for 'Little Boy' and 'Fat Man'.Pinno wrote:Errr... Hiroshima, Nagasaki,
On that occasion, thank you USA."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Ah so you have family who were there?
So there's a self declared interest in making out the locals were the brutal ones, not the occupiers?
Then perhaps your heavy use of the propaganda used at the time makes more sense.
For a start: 'Propaganda'. Who's propaganda? Not British Propaganda. My father (and let me get this straight, my step father - not my real father) was the son of non-British origin farmers. They formed militia groups to protect their farms from the Mau Mau. The British A) Paid little attention to their concerns because they weren't of British origin
Were 2 to 3 days from safety/assistance and C) Outlawed by the British because mainly, they were far more effective at dealing with the Mau Mau and embarrassed them
As part of the independence agreement, British Origin people's, including ex-soldiers were allowed to apply for Citizenship in Kenya but any non-British origin peoples who colluded to fight the Mau Mau were not. This meant that my step father left for New Zealand (Kiwi Wife) and changed his name by Deed Poll in order that he may return to Kenya.
So unfortunately for you, my source is not British Propaganda. "I have family who were there" - I was born in Kenya.Rick Chasey wrote:I have no interest in comparing eras, but to brush off crimes against humanity as 'the way of the world then' misses the point.
No one is brushing this off - let alone me. However, I will not stand by and let people spout bollox about the apparent integrity of a bunch of men intent on violence in a way very reminiscent of what happened in Rwanda.
The rest of your post (apart from emotive subjectivity): I do not doubt some of the atrocities.
Why on earth do people, including yourself attempt to serve some sort of penance for past sins, totally unconnected with you and now?Pinno wrote:How can you say you are not proud of the what the British did? You're far too young to have had any influence on British Foreign Policy during the years of Empire. What a stupid, vain and inverted sense of dubious moral self-promotion.
So do you Rick Chasey, (because you can sit there retrospectively saying "tut tut tut" this was bad and that wasn't good and we're so much better now,) think you occupy a higher moral ground? I think you do.
I put it to you that Empire has been replaced with Global Empire with all its sins and in many ways far more insidious to humanity and the environment than traditional empiricism. I also put it to you that Empire has been replaced by corruption and Genocide. 22,000 murders a year in South Africa. Apartheid by economics or tribal origin. Zimbabwe - Mugabe, great guy isn't he? Nigeria - what a wonderful place where over 200 children are currently being held by some extremists. There's enough oil money to deal with it. That oil money is being syphoned off by the greedy who don't give a farq. (but it's okay, "they''ve got the vote and they aren't being ruled" I hear you say).
The infuriating Politically Correct like you cannot see that if you give a man his freedom by giving him a vote but that vote counts for nothing; he hasn't got work and there is no escape from impoverishment apart from resorting to crime, then in turn, that so called 'freedom' means jack sh1t. It doesn't feed his children and it doesn't protect him from corruption.
You also paint a picture of across the board exploitation of indigenous peoples. How wrong you are.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
No one is brushing this off - let alone me. However, I will not stand by and let people spout bollox about the apparent integrity of a bunch of men intent on violence in a way very reminiscent of what happened in Rwanda.
What have I said about the integrity of anyone other than the Brit occupiers?Why on earth do people, including yourself attempt to serve some sort of penance for past sins, totally unconnected with you and now?
What penance am I serving? I'm calling a spade a spade. A war crime is that; a war crime. You're right, I have no personal connection to it, apart from having spent a month in libraries and archives looking at the evidence.So do you Rick Chasey, (because you can sit there retrospectively saying "tut tut tut" this was bad and that wasn't good and we're so much better now,) think you occupy a higher moral ground? I think you do.
Yes. That's the advantage of studying things in the past, as opposed to the present. It gives you a bit of distance to survey it in cold blood, and then pass judgement on it. I asked the question 'was what Britain did a war crime?' and, having surveyed the evidence, I concluded, yes, yes they were. I make no comment of whether 'now' is better or not (though I don't know who you refer to by 'we').
I presume you pass judgement on other parts of history? There was some pretty bad stuff going on in Europe 10 years before and I doubt you'd come out and declare you're not going to pass judgement on that.0
