The Great Disc Brake Swindle?
Comments
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One thing to watch for is all disk brakes are not equal. In the same way as cheap Tektro Rim brakes are next to useless the same is true for cheap disc brakes. My mountain bike used to have Elixir disc brakes which worked OK but needed constant adjustment and howled like a banshee. Swapped them out for XT disc brakes and much better power, control, and no howling noise, they were a fit and forget component.
That is why I went for R785's on my new road bike as they were developed from XT mountain bike brakes and work very well in a very similar way. For me much better than Rim brakes, especially in the wet. So far they haven't caught fire,glazed over, locked up the wheels etc.
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Or those young'uns with carpal tunnel and less feeling in one arm due to crashing bikesOne big advantage of hydraulic disc (and rim) brakes is for people with weaker grip. Many older riders, women and men with small hands find braking and changing gear a bit of a struggle. They are simply not strong enough and/or their fingers are too short to get decent leverage.
I have an 80-year-old cycling companion who was having real trouble stopping on his two drop bar Mercians - one with Mafac cantilevers, the other with Ultegra dual pivot calipers - to the extent he tried to avoid hilly rides because he no longer had the strength in his fingers to grasp the levers hard enough. Magura hydraulic rim brakes on a straight bar bike have given him a new lease of life. Another 78-year-old friend has switched from cantilevers and Ultegra calipers to XT hydraulic discs with flat bars on his new Kinesis Tripster. He raves about being able to control his speed down the steepest of hills with just the lightest of touches on the levers. Hydraulic brakes are helping my two friends extend their cycling careers.
And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.0 -
Yes they are, people that use their cars want to stop. I sell loads of disc conversions, but not ABS I admit. Why should they be shot? You can't really see the brakes, it's not like fitting a big spoiler or something. The most common upgrades are brakes, electronic ignition and halogen headlights.Outside of racing, nobody is fitting discs, abs and sat navs to their 1950's MGs or TRs as mamba says. Or, if they are, they should be shot!0 -
Right. I've been following this for a while, and I think Mercia Man is answering my questions. But, for the avoidance of doubt, I want to ask: it's not about the rotors, or pads, or fluid, it's about the levers? Have I understood this?
I ask 'cos I have poor hand movement and find bikes with drop bars torture. So I mainly ride with flat bars. But before I give up altogether on drops, are they still viable?Ecrasez l’infame0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19751311#p19751311]BelgianBeerGeek[/url] wrote:Right. I've been following this for a while, and I think Mercia Man is answering my questions. But, for the avoidance of doubt, I want to ask: it's not about the rotors, or pads, or fluid, it's about the levers? Have I understood this?
I ask 'cos I have poor hand movement and find bikes with drop bars torture. So I mainly ride with flat bars. But before I give up altogether on drops, are they still viable?
I would try a road bike with hydraulic disc brakes such as r685 or r785 to check. In my experience they take alot less effort to use and brake better. This avoids the pulling levers hard all the way of rim brakes but may not be enough for your needs. Even from the hoods braking works very well with little effort.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19751311#p19751311]BelgianBeerGeek[/url] wrote:Right. I've been following this for a while, and I think Mercia Man is answering my questions. But, for the avoidance of doubt, I want to ask: it's not about the rotors, or pads, or fluid, it's about the levers? Have I understood this?
I ask 'cos I have poor hand movement and find bikes with drop bars torture. So I mainly ride with flat bars. But before I give up altogether on drops, are they still viable?
I would try a road bike with hydraulic disc brakes such as r685 or r785 to check. In my experience they take alot less effort to use and brake better. This avoids the pulling levers hard all the way of rim brakes but may not be enough for your needs. Even from the hoods braking works very well with little effort.
I agree with Kajjal. Flat bar levers will always be better for people with weaker grip or limited movement but hydraulics make a big difference because the effort required is considerably less than for cable disc or rim brakes. I've never tried drop bar hydraulic discs but reckon it would be well worth trying out some to see whether the levers suit you before abandoning drop bars completely.
However, mechanical gear changing with Shimano STI drop bar levers, with the large amount of swing required, is definitely harder for people with small hands or limited movement than flat bar gear controls.0 -
This thread should be archived. Reminds me of the ipod thread on macrumours.
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.500/
What Hi Fi ran an editorial sign off at the same moment stating that MP3 was also dead.
That iPod thread is classic...
"or are you really aiming to become a glorified consumer gimmicks firm?" - remarkably prescient I thought!
"I for one am disappointed and think that apple is making a mistake by trying to get into this market."
Priceless.0 -
Yes they are, people that use their cars want to stop. I sell loads of disc conversions, but not ABS I admit. Why should they be shot? You can't really see the brakes, it's not like fitting a big spoiler or something. The most common upgrades are brakes, electronic ignition and halogen headlights.Outside of racing, nobody is fitting discs, abs and sat navs to their 1950's MGs or TRs as mamba says. Or, if they are, they should be shot!
I guess it depends on what you classify as loads. And it does depend on the car to some extent - but to some degree I never really understand why someone would want an old car that they don't like! There's plenty of old cars that stop well without non period mods. It's one thing to upgrade a car to discs when it was an option that your car didn't have or that later versions of the same did have but if that doesn't apply then really you own the wrong car. It's like moving towards these horrible modernised E-Type Jags with modern running gear - the motoring equivalent of old buildings where only the façade remains; attractive but very shallow!Faster than a tent.......0 -
This thread should be archived. Reminds me of the ipod thread on macrumours.
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.500/
What Hi Fi ran an editorial sign off at the same moment stating that MP3 was also dead.
That iPod thread is classic...
"or are you really aiming to become a glorified consumer gimmicks firm?" - remarkably prescient I thought!
"I for one am disappointed and think that apple is making a mistake by trying to get into this market."
Priceless.
+1
great stuff...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
This thread should be archived. Reminds me of the ipod thread on macrumours.
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.500/
What Hi Fi ran an editorial sign off at the same moment stating that MP3 was also dead.
That iPod thread is classic...
"or are you really aiming to become a glorified consumer gimmicks firm?" - remarkably prescient I thought!
"I for one am disappointed and think that apple is making a mistake by trying to get into this market."
Priceless.
+1
great stuff...
It's not a great analogy to this though is it? The MP3 player was revolutionary. Discs just do a bit better than calipers most of the time and a bit worse than calipers some of the time.
It's all ultimately a bit trivial. As long as people can buy what they want (whether discs or calipers) then what's the problem? I daresay that in a few years to come, the statistics will show in horrifying detail the hugely greater death rates amongst those cyclists who refuse to listen to sense and remain wedded to the caliper brake!Faster than a tent.......0 -
I daresay that in a few years to come, the statistics will show in horrifying detail the hugely greater death rates amongst those cyclists who refuse to listen to sense and remain wedded to the caliper brake!
And those rampant disc evangelists will jump on it whilst ignoring that the calliper conservatives are generally older beings and have higher death rates because of that...0 -
History shows this won’t happen. When the ecosystem is fragmented by multiple competing technologies and standards, prices go up for everyone, meaningful choice of a given type of technology goes down, and eventually the technology becomes unobtainable.It's all ultimately a bit trivial. As long as people can buy what they want (whether discs or calipers) then what's the problem?
This has happened or is happening with many bicycle components. Consider:- bushing chains that lasted several times longer than today’s bushingless chains
- similarly durable freewheels wherein the cog profile and steel alloy was chosen for power transmission rather than indexed shifting without substantial overshift
- lightweight rims with a thick braking surface (e.g. Mavic MA2)
- 7-speed cassettes and hubs with correspondingly less dish and wider flanges for a given OLN distance
- top quality, moderately priced, square-taper bottom brackets (e.g. Shimano BB-UN72)
- 1" threadless steerer tubes with appreciable flex (i.e. ones made of steel)
Of course I didn’t mention all the old stuff that was replaced by better stuff. That happens too:- cottered cranks > square taper
- tubulars > high-pressure clinchers on hooked rims
- quill pedals > clipless pedals
- freewheels > freehubs and cassettes
- arguably threaded headsets > threadless
In his 1952 book Art and Technics, Lewis Mumford vividly described the post-1990 bicycle industry:
“But once established and perfected, type objects should have a long period of use. No essential improvement in the safety pin has been made since the bronze age. In weaving there has been no essential modification in the loom for over a century. And what is true for machines holds good in no small degree for their products. When the typical form has been achieved, the sooner the machine retreats into the background and becomes a discreetly silent fixture the better. This again flies in the face of most contemporary beliefs. At present, half our gains in technical efficiency are nullified by the annual custom of restyling. Extraordinary ingenuity is exercised by publicity directors and industrial designers in making models that have undergone no essential change look as if they had. In order to hasten style obsolescence, they introduce fake variety in departments where it is irrelevant—not in the interest of order, efficiency, technical perfection, but in the interest of profit and prestige, two very secondary and usually sordid human motives. Instead of lengthening the life of the product and lowering the cost to the user, they raise the cost to the user by shortening the life of the product and causing him to be conscious of mere stylistic tricks that are without any kind of human significance or value. This perversion of technics in our time naturally saps the vitality of real art; first by destroying any sound basis for discrimination and then by taking energy and attention away from those aspects of human experience in which the unique and the personal are supremely important.”0 -
Do you want me to quote the next paragraph?0
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No thanks. The first one nearly sent me to sleep.Do you want me to quote the next paragraph?argon 18 e116 2013 Vision Metron 80
Bianchi Oltre XR Sram Red E-tap, Fulcrum racing speed xlr
De Rosa SK pininfarina disc
S Works Tarmac e-tap 2017
Rose pro sl disc0 -
Glad to see you back, OnYourRight. Always interesting to see you winding up disc brake evangelists.0
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I’m not trying to wind anyone up. I’m talking about the possibility of losing my preferred brake type (the simple, cheap, elegant, and highly functional calliper rim brake) to market forces outside my control. May I not be miffed at that?
Which important facets of reality have I overlooked anyway?
If one day I have to ride a bicycle with electric shifting and disc brakes, I’ll survive and maybe even enjoy it. But if I have a choice, I’ll take simplicity and beauty and low cost.0 -
It's not a great analogy to this though is it? The MP3 player was revolutionary. Discs just do a bit better than calipers most of the time and a bit worse than calipers some of the time.
You ve really rather spectacularly missed the point there. Many of the posts are of the "The creative Mp3 Player holds 5GB and costs 200 less than this iplod thing"
The point is that something that began a tech revolution into smartphones was panned by a large swathe apple tech nerds
It's actually an excellent analogy, as is the stuff about DT shifters vs "brifters", Discs vs V-brakes by the MTBers or pretty much anything elseWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
It's actually an excellent analogy, as is the stuff about DT shifters vs "brifters", Discs vs V-brakes by the MTBers or pretty much anything else
No it isn't an excellent analogy. And neither is the DT shifter vs brifter thing - the discs vs V-brakes for MTBers is more like it though. The benefits of discs for MTBs are far more obvious than they are for road bikes. There the arrival of discs eliminated problems that were likely to afflict pretty much anyone into mountain biking. Disc brakes for road bikes improves some bikes and makes others worse. It is a far greyer area.You ve really rather spectacularly missed the point there. Many of the posts are of the "The creative Mp3 Player holds 5GB and costs 200 less than this iplod thing"
You need to make your point less spectacularly badly then! Faster than a tent.......0 -
It's not a great analogy to this though is it? The MP3 player was revolutionary. Discs just do a bit better than calipers most of the time and a bit worse than calipers some of the time.
You ve really rather spectacularly missed the point there. Many of the posts are of the "The creative Mp3 Player holds 5GB and costs 200 less than this iplod thing"
The point is that something that began a tech revolution into smartphones was panned by a large swathe apple tech nerds
It's actually an excellent analogy, as is the stuff about DT shifters vs "brifters", Discs vs V-brakes by the MTBers or pretty much anything else
i agree with you, it just happens that i dont like disk's, i dont like the look of them on a road bike, i dont think they work very well and most 1/2 decent riders dont need them either.
on a mtb i was one of the first (of our mtb group) to get some, fantastic improvement, as is my iphone 6 - company provided, not even i would buy one with my own money 0 -
It's actually an excellent analogy, as is the stuff about DT shifters vs "brifters", Discs vs V-brakes by the MTBers or pretty much anything else
No it isn't an excellent analogy. And neither is the DT shifter vs brifter thing - the discs vs V-brakes for MTBers is more like it though. The benefits of discs for MTBs are far more obvious than they are for road bikes. There the arrival of discs eliminated problems that were likely to afflict pretty much anyone into mountain biking. Disc brakes for road bikes improves some bikes and makes others worse. It is a far greyer area.You ve really rather spectacularly missed the point there. Many of the posts are of the "The creative Mp3 Player holds 5GB and costs 200 less than this iplod thing"
You need to make your point less spectacularly badly then!
I'm aware you enjoy a good troll Rolf, but given that I didnt post the link, nor post on the ipod forum it really can't have too much to do with me. I think it's pretty clear you have nt even opened the link so meh...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
It's not a great analogy to this though is it? The MP3 player was revolutionary. Discs just do a bit better than calipers most of the time and a bit worse than calipers some of the time.
You ve really rather spectacularly missed the point there. Many of the posts are of the "The creative Mp3 Player holds 5GB and costs 200 less than this iplod thing"
The point is that something that began a tech revolution into smartphones was panned by a large swathe apple tech nerds
It's actually an excellent analogy, as is the stuff about DT shifters vs "brifters", Discs vs V-brakes by the MTBers or pretty much anything else
i agree with you, it just happens that i dont like disk's, i dont like the look of them on a road bike, i dont think they work very well and most 1/2 decent riders dont need them either.
on a mtb i was one of the first (of our mtb group) to get some, fantastic improvement, as is my iphone 6 - company provided, not even i would buy one with my own money
I don't like the look of them
ignoring the irrelevance, what you mean is that they don't look like what you have now...
I don't think they work very well
clearly not the case, sorry
Most half decent riders don't need them
true of every development in bicycles from the pennyfarthing onward...
Iphone6
yeah 'kay, fair enough, I'm with you thereWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
This article on the homepage made me chuckle. Who's going to be the first person to say "They would say that wouldn't they" or similar and believe it?0
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I’m not trying to wind anyone up. I’m talking about the possibility of losing my preferred brake type (the simple, cheap, elegant, and highly functional calliper rim brake) to market forces outside my control. May I not be miffed at that?
It isn't going to happen though, take
1) http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-xt-t780-v-brake/rp-prod70102
V's
2) http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-xt-m785-disc-brake/rp-prod67208
as an example.
Really you're just atempting to recycle the same old guff that's been flung around for a few years now.Advocate of disc brakes.0 -
You mean to say that disc brakes have been available on MTB's for years but you can still buy rim brakes? Wow! who'd have thunk it?
Oh, yes. Anybody with an ounce of common sense.0 -
[quote="
I don't like the look of them
ignoring the irrelevance, what you mean is that they don't look like what you have now...
I don't think they work very well
clearly not the case, sorry
Most half decent riders don't need them
true of every development in bicycles from the pennyfarthing onward...
Iphone6
yeah 'kay, fair enough, I'm with you there
a: subjective, i dont like the look of them, just like i like the Scream but not the Mona lisa
b: on the 2 bikes i rode, BH and Spesh, they didnt work for me, for others i ve no doubt and i also accept i probably didnt want them to work mmmmm
c: in the dry a rim brake gives plenty of feel and for me, bags of fade free power, in the wet, disks give more power but on autumn muddy slippy roads and 100psi tires with little grip, whats the point? goo pads wear fast but are amazing in the wet.
d: i m waiting for the iphone 7s
each to their own i guess, its not a subject i d get hot under the collar over, if i had a dedicated winter road bike, i d prob have discs, but i use a HT 29er for that duty and that does and big fat soft tires 0 -
Yeah, but that's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint.a: subjective, i dont like the look of them, just like i like the Scream but not the Mona lisa
Should I mention I still have a 4S?0 -
I'm aware you enjoy a good troll Rolf, but given that I didnt post the link, nor post on the ipod forum it really can't have too much to do with me. I think it's pretty clear you have nt even opened the link so meh...
No, of course I didn't open the link! I just went on the description of the content. Life is too short to go trawling through multi page threads on other forums but I do take your point - both re the content and your limited connection to it! I don't consider that I enjoy a good troll though - after all, I'm not one of the many on here who is insisting that one point of view is right and the other entirely wrong; if you want to find trolls, look for those who say that calipers are in no circumstance better than discs and vice versa. Faster than a tent.......0
