The Great Disc Brake Swindle?
Comments
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I've been in the classic car game for over 25 years. Lots of people upgrade their brakes, steering, etc if they want to use the cars. We sell disc conversions and servo kits all day long. I've only ever had one person take discs off and go back to drums, that was because he wanted to show the car not drive it, waste of a car if ever there was.
'Monstrosities' is a bit strong. My De Rosa frame looks beautiful without a rear caliper cluttering up the flowing lines of the seatstays. I think people need to get a bit of a grip on this whole disc brake issue. I'd bet if they started putting caliper brakes back on mountain bikes everyone would be saying how shite they look.I'm an aesthete, so I care...(rightly). And it's not just the calipers and rotors and wheels...the hoods are hideous too.
I would no more buy of these monstrosities than I would a Toyota Prius or a Harley Road Glide. Especially when the benefit is so marginal.
Also, dont knock discs on a roadbike until you try it, which i'll bet a lot the naysayers haven't.
Surely though not being able to stop in the wet is part of a bicycles charm? i mean look at all the folk who are into classic cars and M/C s ? do they try and fit disks, ABS and Sat nav to their 1950's MG or TR ? exactly
A friend of mine who restores Jaguar XKs has a "shopping list" of options and the most people always spec the brake upgrades
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I'm an aesthete, so I care...(rightly). And it's not just the calipers and rotors and wheels...the hoods are hideous too.
I would no more buy of these monstrosities than I would a Toyota Prius or a Harley Road Glide. Especially when the benefit is so marginal.
That argument can be challenged too... nothing prettier than a frame with no stuff bolted on. Calipers ruin the flow of lines in a way disc don't, as they are confined to the extremities of the frame.
Long story short, old frames are very elegant, but modern frames with calipers are not particularly attractive.
I also think it makes the rims look neater too.
I'm sure a lot of this stuff (e.g., hood design) will be ironed out over time anyway.0 -
I'm an aesthete, so I care...(rightly). And it's not just the calipers and rotors and wheels...the hoods are hideous too.
I would no more buy of these monstrosities than I would a Toyota Prius or a Harley Road Glide. Especially when the benefit is so marginal.
That argument can be challenged too... nothing prettier than a frame with no stuff bolted on. Calipers ruin the flow of lines in a way disc don't, as they are confined to the extremities of the frame.
Long story short, old frames are very elegant, but modern frames with calipers are not particularly attractive.
I also think it makes the rims look neater too.
I'm sure a lot of this stuff (e.g., hood design) will be ironed out over time anyway.
We are back on to the STI lever argument again, everyone said the same about them when they came out but we have got used to the aesthetic of them over the past 20 years .0 -
I'm an aesthete, so I care...(rightly). And it's not just the calipers and rotors and wheels...the hoods are hideous too.
I would no more buy of these monstrosities than I would a Toyota Prius or a Harley Road Glide. Especially when the benefit is so marginal.
That argument can be challenged too... nothing prettier than a frame with no stuff bolted on. Calipers ruin the flow of lines in a way disc don't, as they are confined to the extremities of the frame.
Long story short, old frames are very elegant, but modern frames with calipers are not particularly attractive.
I also think it makes the rims look neater too.
I'm sure a lot of this stuff (e.g., hood design) will be ironed out over time anyway.
We are back on to the STI lever argument again, everyone said the same about them when they came out but we have got used to the aesthetic of them over the past 20 years .
Indeed and to be fair the 2016 105 hydraulic brake hoods are absolutely gopping. There does seem to be a rather utilitarian approach to "styling" to allow for reservoir to be incorporated but the designers and engineers will soon have a bit of a love in and sort it all out.Trail fun - Transition Bandit
Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
Allround - Cotic Solaris0 -
I've been in the classic car game for over 25 years. Lots of people upgrade their brakes, steering, etc if they want to use the cars. We sell disc conversions and servo kits all day long. I've only ever had one person take discs off and go back to drums, that was because he wanted to show the car not drive it, waste of a car if ever there was.Surely though not being able to stop in the wet is part of a bicycles charm? i mean look at all the folk who are into classic cars and M/C s ? do they try and fit disks, ABS and Sat nav to their 1950's MG or TR ? exactly
A friend of mine who restores Jaguar XKs has a "shopping list" of options and the most people always spec the brake upgrades
mmmmm i can see a sense of humour needs an upgrade
Seriously though, my mate has a Norton Interstate and as far as i m aware, he hasnt spec ed some 6 pot Brembos and 320 floating disks, nor a set of Ohlins forks
My first ride on a disc roubaix almost but not quite - in me sliding off on a back lane in the wet, on main roads it was fine, i guess a period of adjustment is needed? personaly i dont see the need.0 -
'Monstrosities' is a bit strong. My De Rosa frame looks beautiful without a rear caliper cluttering up the flowing lines of the seatstays. I think people need to get a bit of a grip on this whole disc brake issue. I'd bet if they started putting caliper brakes back on mountain bikes everyone would be saying how shite they look.I'm an aesthete, so I care...(rightly). And it's not just the calipers and rotors and wheels...the hoods are hideous too.
I would no more buy of these monstrosities than I would a Toyota Prius or a Harley Road Glide. Especially when the benefit is so marginal.
Also, dont knock discs on a roadbike until you try it, which i'll bet a lot the naysayers haven't.
Surely though not being able to stop in the wet is part of a bicycles charm? i mean look at all the folk who are into classic cars and M/C s ? do they try and fit disks, ABS and Sat nav to their 1950's MG or TR ? exactly
Not really.
My period bike is 35 years old, but the tyres are brand new and the rims are modern lookalike vintage. I wouldn't want to ride it with tyres that puncture every 5 miles and rims that don't brake properly. I don't see the charm, just the inconvenienceleft the forum March 20230 -
Surely though not being able to stop in the wet is part of a bicycles charm? i mean look at all the folk who are into classic cars and M/C s ? do they try and fit disks, ABS and Sat nav to their 1950's MG or TR ? exactly
6-pot alloy brakes with oversized vented discs on the front of my 1969 Giulia GTJ. So the answer is, err, Yes Going through the hedge is no more appealing in 2015 than it was in 1969 ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Sorry, the lack of humour from a few posts meant I wasn't expecting it. Funnily enough I was thinking of the same comparison from the other point of view. I was going to suggest the guy that reverted to drum brakes may have been a road cyclist.mmmmm i can see a sense of humour needs an upgrade
I have a '68 Bonneville in bits at the moment as a long term project. If I keep it for myself I will be fabricating caliper mounts and fitting twin discs as on period race bikes like Slippery Sam, modern brakes would look wrong I grant you. My reasoning is the same as with bicycle discs. The original drum brake is plenty powerful enough, but the feel is dreadful and it's very snatchy so more prone to locking up. The discs are more progressive. I haven't just read this, it's what I've learned from years of riding bikes of all sorts with and without engines. If I sell it the drum will stay as that's cheaper and easier.0 -
Does a moderator have any idea why my account (OnYourRight) and all its posts vanished? I had to re-register to post this, but I used exactly the same username, and shockingly it created the account.
Does this mean my old posts are gone for good? What is going on?! You can see for yourself that all that remains of my posts in this thread are other people quoting me.0 -
Perhaps my account was hacked by the disc-brake mafia? (I was arguing against discs, if anyone can remember.)0
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Are you sure you didn't decide a pencil and paper are better than a computer and delete everything?Does a moderator have any idea why my account (OnYourRight) and all its posts vanished? I had to re-register to post this, but I used exactly the same username, and shockingly it created the account.
Does this mean my old posts are gone for good? What is going on?! You can see for yourself that all that remains of my posts in this thread are other people quoting me.
Sorry, couldn't resist. We can't tell anything as mods I'm afraid. Something definitely does look amiss, ask one of the admin to look into it from the Discuss with the Team bit of the forum. The bit Ugo quoted of you is at the top of page 4. Shame your posts have gone as it will make some of the ones that followed look a bit odd. I'm sure it's not a disc brake conspiracy.0 -
Times when I have felt under braked! Coming down Greenhow hill into Pately Bridge on a PX kaffenbach with full paniers and Canti Brakes 90 kg rider 10 kg bike with about 15 kg kit down a 20% incline. I once taught Physics so I should have known better!
But to be fair that's the one and only time, I now ride modern dual pivot road brakes ( Ultegra 6800) On both ally clinchers and carbon tubs ( different pads, cheap blue ones from wiggle) and cant think of a time since then when the sphincter has clinched.
So unless your doing CX or there are clearance issues. Or Multi Continent endurance events were Pad and Rim wear matter, then why do you need disc brakes? Some will say later braking points and being able to get back on the gas quicker. Really, Probably only in Crits , where the Weight difference would lose you that advantage any way.
Personally I think its just Marketing, except in CX.0 -
Thanks, Veronese68. I am not in love with my 650 posts and don’t much care if they’re gone, except that it does make discussions like this one hard to follow. I’ll start a thread in the sub-forum you suggest.
Carry on, all.0 -
But have you ridden discs on a roadbike?Times when I have felt under braked! Coming down Greenhow hill into Pately Bridge on a PX kaffenbach with full paniers and Canti Brakes 90 kg rider 10 kg bike with about 15 kg kit down a 20% incline. I once taught Physics so I should have known better!
But to be fair that's the one and only time, I now ride modern dual pivot road brakes ( Ultegra 6800) On both ally clinchers and carbon tubs ( different pads, cheap blue ones from wiggle) and cant think of a time since then when the sphincter has clinched.
So unless your doing CX or there are clearance issues. Or Multi Continent endurance events were Pad and Rim wear matter, then why do you need disc brakes? Some will say later braking points and being able to get back on the gas quicker. Really, Probably only in Crits , where the Weight difference would lose you that advantage any way.
Personally I think its just Marketing, except in CX.argon 18 e116 2013 Vision Metron 80
Bianchi Oltre XR Sram Red E-tap, Fulcrum racing speed xlr
De Rosa SK pininfarina disc
S Works Tarmac e-tap 2017
Rose pro sl disc0 -
What he said ^
But have you ridden discs on a roadbike?Times when I have felt under braked! Coming down Greenhow hill into Pately Bridge on a PX kaffenbach with full paniers and Canti Brakes 90 kg rider 10 kg bike with about 15 kg kit down a 20% incline. I once taught Physics so I should have known better!
But to be fair that's the one and only time, I now ride modern dual pivot road brakes ( Ultegra 6800) On both ally clinchers and carbon tubs ( different pads, cheap blue ones from wiggle) and cant think of a time since then when the sphincter has clinched.
So unless your doing CX or there are clearance issues. Or Multi Continent endurance events were Pad and Rim wear matter, then why do you need disc brakes? Some will say later braking points and being able to get back on the gas quicker. Really, Probably only in Crits , where the Weight difference would lose you that advantage any way.
Personally I think its just Marketing, except in CX.And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.0 -
What he said ^
But have you ridden discs on a roadbike?Times when I have felt under braked! Coming down Greenhow hill into Pately Bridge on a PX kaffenbach with full paniers and Canti Brakes 90 kg rider 10 kg bike with about 15 kg kit down a 20% incline. I once taught Physics so I should have known better!
But to be fair that's the one and only time, I now ride modern dual pivot road brakes ( Ultegra 6800) On both ally clinchers and carbon tubs ( different pads, cheap blue ones from wiggle) and cant think of a time since then when the sphincter has clinched.
So unless your doing CX or there are clearance issues. Or Multi Continent endurance events were Pad and Rim wear matter, then why do you need disc brakes? Some will say later braking points and being able to get back on the gas quicker. Really, Probably only in Crits , where the Weight difference would lose you that advantage any way.
Personally I think its just Marketing, except in CX.
Well, i have, a BH shim hydralic bike in Majorca in April and a roubaix last week.
the discs on the BH were totally not needed in the dry and i was very pleased to swop the bike out for a 6800 rim eqipped one a few days later.
The Roubaix was used on a mixture of wet muddy back lanes and main roads, it was totally over braked, over whelming the front tire on the shitty back lanes, i was concerned about any sort of sudden braking locking up the front in the wet, still got a skinny hi pressure tire up front, on normal roads couldnt really see the adv.
i agree with Tim, its just sales and marketing.0 -
Just a case of getting used to not grabbing a handful of lever everytime you brake.argon 18 e116 2013 Vision Metron 80
Bianchi Oltre XR Sram Red E-tap, Fulcrum racing speed xlr
De Rosa SK pininfarina disc
S Works Tarmac e-tap 2017
Rose pro sl disc0 -
Far from. Nobody has been forced to move away from friction shifters, rim brakes, mechanical groupsets, woolen jerseys, actual chamois in shorts or from steels and alloys to carbon.
i agree with Tim, its just sales and marketing.
Pay your money take your choice. I chose disc brakesAnd the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.0 -
The Roubaix was used on a mixture of wet muddy back lanes and main roads, it was totally over braked, over whelming the front tire on the sh!tty back lanes, i was concerned about any sort of sudden braking locking up the front in the wet, still got a skinny hi pressure tire up front, on normal roads couldnt really see the adv.
i agree with Tim, its just sales and marketing.
It seems a lot of nonsense. I have been on disc brakes and road tyres for nearly 6 years and I never locked the front wheel. Maybe you have not developed a feel for the lever, but I'd say there is no difference in the braking power between decent versions of rim and disc calipers. if you lock a disc, you lock a rim, just as likely.
The push for discs come from the industry... they need to sell you something new and I agree on this point, nothing new is really needed, but saying that it is worse, that's a bit rich.left the forum March 20230 -
The Roubaix was used on a mixture of wet muddy back lanes and main roads, it was totally over braked, over whelming the front tire on the sh!tty back lanes, i was concerned about any sort of sudden braking locking up the front in the wet, still got a skinny hi pressure tire up front, on normal roads couldnt really see the adv.
i agree with Tim, its just sales and marketing.
It seems a lot of nonsense. I have been on disc brakes and road tyres for nearly 6 years and I never locked the front wheel. Maybe you have not developed a feel for the lever, but I'd say there is no difference in the braking power between decent versions of rim and disc calipers. if you lock a disc, you lock a rim, just as likely.
The push for discs come from the industry... they need to sell you something new and I agree on this point, nothing new is really needed, but saying that it is worse, that's a bit rich.
didnt say it worse, just that i dont see the adv, rim wear aside but each to their own, sure controlled braking is no doubt not an issue but in a sudden emergency, where instinct take over? dont think they ve fitted abs yet or is that next years must have requirement? needing new frame wheels etc.
As you said the push has come from the industry, good road bike handlers dont need disks, other than for a particular activity, so a winter commute bike or CX but even there many top riders chose not to use them.0 -
This thread should be archived. Reminds me of the ipod thread on macrumours.
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.500/0 -
This thread should be archived. Reminds me of the ipod thread on macrumours.
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.500/
What Hi Fi ran an editorial sign off at the same moment stating that MP3 was also dead.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
I'd be happy to keep on using rim brakes, I haven't moved to discs for more power, 90% of the reason was to not use a structural part of the wheel as a wear surface. It's such a relief not to have to pick alloy shards out of brake blocks and measure rim wear on my winter bike. The worst bit is when you know the rims are nearing end of life, what do you do, keep going a bit more or bin them early. Bin them how early? etc etc etc.
But if someone is paying for your kit, the move to discs isn't a compelling one, unless you ride in the rain a lot 0 -
Surely though not being able to stop in the wet is part of a bicycles charm? i mean look at all the folk who are into classic cars and M/C s ? do they try and fit disks, ABS and Sat nav to their 1950's MG or TR ? exactly
6-pot alloy brakes with oversized vented discs on the front of my 1969 Giulia GTJ. So the answer is, err, Yes Going through the hedge is no more appealing in 2015 than it was in 1969
But what you forget to mention is that, irrc, you race that car. Which makes quite a difference. Outside of racing, nobody is fitting discs, abs and sat navs to their 1950's MGs or TRs as mamba says. Or, if they are, they should be shot!
For road use, unless the Giula is more crappily engineered than I would expect, its stock brakes ought to be quite up to the job.
But that said, I'm not convinced that the classic car analogy is that great - many of the cars with truly dreadful brakes also tend to be very slow and driven accordingly. Classic bikes are not necessarily any slower than the lightest of modern bikes and will weigh more. Their brakes need to be much nearer the standard of modern ones - with then fits in with how MRS uses his Giulia.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Once again, there is a lot of confusion.
There is no difference in braking power, modulation or anything like that between rim and disc brakes. They behave in exactly the same way.
There is a bit more consistency in wet conditions for disc brakes, but even there, the difference isn't life changing.
Rims don't wear, true, so if you buy expensive rims, there is a point for disc brakes.
Rim brakes are a lighter set up, so there is a point there if you live in mountainous areas.
IME disc brakes overheat quicker than rim brakes (they are smaller), but the consequences are less catastrophic when they do, as there are no tubes exploding and the likes (it does happen even with alloy rims and even to very experienced riders). Pads glaze and fade, but eventually they still stop you. Boiling fluid is a bit of a myth, at least for road.
This is my experience... about 6 years and over 30 K miles on discs, much more on rim calipersleft the forum March 20230 -
One big advantage of hydraulic disc (and rim) brakes is for people with weaker grip. Many older riders, women and men with small hands find braking and changing gear a bit of a struggle. They are simply not strong enough and/or their fingers are too short to get decent leverage.
I have an 80-year-old cycling companion who was having real trouble stopping on his two drop bar Mercians - one with Mafac cantilevers, the other with Ultegra dual pivot calipers - to the extent he tried to avoid hilly rides because he no longer had the strength in his fingers to grasp the levers hard enough. Magura hydraulic rim brakes on a straight bar bike have given him a new lease of life. Another 78-year-old friend has switched from cantilevers and Ultegra calipers to XT hydraulic discs with flat bars on his new Kinesis Tripster. He raves about being able to control his speed down the steepest of hills with just the lightest of touches on the levers. Hydraulic brakes are helping my two friends extend their cycling careers.0 -
One big advantage of hydraulic disc (and rim) brakes is for people with weaker grip. Many older riders, women and men with small hands find braking and changing gear a bit of a struggle. They are simply not strong enough and/or their fingers are too short to get decent leverage.
I have an 80-year-old cycling companion who was having real trouble stopping on his two drop bar Mercians - one with Mafac cantilevers, the other with Ultegra dual pivot calipers - to the extent he tried to avoid hilly rides because he no longer had the strength in his fingers to grasp the levers hard enough. Magura hydraulic rim brakes on a straight bar bike have given him a new lease of life. Another 78-year-old friend has switched from cantilevers and Ultegra calipers to XT hydraulic discs with flat bars on his new Kinesis Tripster. He raves about being able to control his speed down the steepest of hills with just the lightest of touches on the levers. Hydraulic brakes are helping my two friends extend their cycling careers.
Considering how pathetic UK pensions are (including private ones) I doubt Shimano cares about the pensioners market...left the forum March 20230 -
One big advantage of hydraulic disc (and rim) brakes is for people with weaker grip. Many older riders, women and men with small hands find braking and changing gear a bit of a struggle. They are simply not strong enough and/or their fingers are too short to get decent leverage.
I have an 80-year-old cycling companion who was having real trouble stopping on his two drop bar Mercians - one with Mafac cantilevers, the other with Ultegra dual pivot calipers - to the extent he tried to avoid hilly rides because he no longer had the strength in his fingers to grasp the levers hard enough. Magura hydraulic rim brakes on a straight bar bike have given him a new lease of life. Another 78-year-old friend has switched from cantilevers and Ultegra calipers to XT hydraulic discs with flat bars on his new Kinesis Tripster. He raves about being able to control his speed down the steepest of hills with just the lightest of touches on the levers. Hydraulic brakes are helping my two friends extend their cycling careers.
Considering how pathetic UK pensions are (including private ones) I doubt Shimano cares about the pensioners market...
That may be true for people currently still working and with a bleak outlook for later and later retirement and the uncertainty of defined contribution pensions. But many of the current generation of pensioners - the last to benefit from decent final salary schemes - have a large disposable income and the health and fitness to enjoy it, whether cycling, running, walking or other active pursuits.
Shops like Cotswold Outdoor are thriving due to the grey pound. I was quite surprised when I bought a £6,000 Legend HT 10.5 fairly recently (thanks to an unexpected inheritance!) to be told by the dealer that the majority of his high end builds were for retired men.
Certainly, my two elderly cycling pals have the money to buy the latest kit to extend their cycling enjoyment. And Shimano benefits from this.0
