The Great Disc Brake Swindle?
tommytranquillo
Posts: 13
In light of Cyclist magazine recently admitting that disc brakes may have a few problems on road bike applications, here's my take on things:
https://cyclingdigest.wordpress.com/2015/11/19/the-great-disc-brake-swindle/
https://cyclingdigest.wordpress.com/2015/11/19/the-great-disc-brake-swindle/
0
Comments
-
Yeah, I get that (and hope I've stopped short of spamming) but I do think it's a subject worth consideration.0
-
That's true, but I thought it was interesting that a cycling journalist has actually come out and cast doubt on something that has been universally lauded in the bike press0
-
There are lots of threads on this. Some people will never be convinced either way, I'm a convert as most regulars on here will probably know.
To avoid looking like you're spamming the forum why not actively take part in the threads already on here? Then put a link to your blog in a sig so people can read it if they want to. As blogs go I quite like it.0 -
OK, let's regurgitate this, again. It's not like this 'article' amounts to anything more than attention seeking, but, OP, i have an instant solution for you. Go ride your rim brake bike. Boom! In your words, OMG, superior, lightweight rim brake bikes exist and we can ride them everyday and feel sorry for poor Pros, who will all have to ride their 8kg disk brake bikes soon!0
-
There are indeed lots of threads about this, but like all forum threads they quickly degenerate from polite discussion to entrenched positions and name-calling. My point was that, for the first time, certain industry insiders were breaking ranks. That's what interests me, not the debate about whether disc brakes are any good or not. But I will do as you suggest and put a link in my signature (don't want to appear spammy!)0
-
If you want mu opinon, they are the future for every non-pro cyclist (and even for the pro's rims will only be superior in rare, specific uses) but becasue they were hitherto banned for use in the pro peloton, the R&D going into them (+frame, + wheels) was minimal and limited to CX, which is a reasonable deal in the US but in Europe is affected by the same backward looking malaise that road cycling has been afflicted by for decades.
From my experience, Shimano Discs have been made to feel like rim breaks and so have sacrificed power for modulation whereas SRAM brakes are similar to MTB discs. As I came to cycling through MTB, I am used to being able to grab a whole handful of break by twitching a finger but I understand why people who are not used to the skills of breaking (feeling for traction, feathering etc) struggle with the far superior power.
A quick google of Rich Hallet suggests that he may be a fan of the more vintage bike, which is fine - all power to him, but improvements shouldn't stop just because one guy doesnt want to learn to design his handbuilt bikes with disc mounts...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Just thought, you might need to have a certain number of posts before you can put a link in your sig. This was to deter spammers.
To refer to your article, I don't have the problems discussed. But I've only used cable discs and a Parabox hydraulic convertor on my cross bike. I'd like to go to full hydraulics, but don't have the cash to justify it as it would mean going 11 speed at the same time. My current brakes are pretty powerful and I've never found it a disadvantage. The fact that they work in all weather is a major plus, although they can get a bit loud in the wet. The fluid used in Shimano brakes is not hygroscopic, DOT used in SRAM and most others is. But bicycle brakes are usually a sealed system so this is not a problem. The brakes on my MTB are much more powerful and I ride it on slippery surfaces. Locking is not an issue, I only use one finger to brake and use it more gently if I feel it locking. Brake rub is not much of an issue, never had it on my cross bike unless a bit of dirt gets in and that's when riding off road. This is usually cleared out after a couple of applications of the brakes anyway. When they do rub there is no pressure on the pad so it has little, if any, effect. I'd be interested to see if someone can measure the effect. Probably too many variables to be able to get any meaningful data.
For my use discs make the most sense. There is no way I'd go back to rim brakes for my everyday bike.0 -
bendertherobot has experienced brake rub on a badly set up Boardman CX, which went back. Bendertherobot has not experienced brake rub on any other disc braked bike except once on a BB7 equipped one which had something stuck on it. Bendertherobot has been through quite a few disc braked bikes.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
i have full hydro on my cx bike.
for when I have the trailer on the back with 2 kids doing the school run down some steepish hills where I have to pull over for traffic and stop they are useful.
but for club runs etc no difference in my opinion. the benefits are overstated0 -
I currently have two road bikes with discs (one cable, one hydraulic) and an (ex) CX bike with cable discs. The CX had BB5's on it and was never convinced they were much good. Swapping to TRP spyres didn't make that much difference and in the dry I preferred 105 rim brakes on my road bike. After I wrote off the CX I bought a Charge Plug which has very cheap promax disc brakes but these work well, much better than the CX. I recently bought a Synapse Ultegra with hydraulic discs and my god, the difference is staggering. Even on 140 rotors the power and feel of the brakes is in a different league from the cable discs, true one finger braking. So my opinion (for what its worth) is that the biggest factor is the cable, the routing of the back brake cable on the CX was awful with a tight bend just as it went into the brake and after a short period of time the brake would lose power and travel. Add to this the stretching of the cable and low mechanical advantage?0
-
Is that not a benefit? They work with loads of weight and make no difference on a club run. If you are only doing club runs on dry days there may be no benefit.i have full hydro on my cx bike.
for when I have the trailer on the back with 2 kids doing the school run down some steepish hills where I have to pull over for traffic and stop they are useful.
but for club runs etc no difference in my opinion. the benefits are overstated0 -
Is that not a benefit? They work with loads of weight and make no difference on a club run. If you are only doing club runs on dry days there may be no benefit.i have full hydro on my cx bike.
for when I have the trailer on the back with 2 kids doing the school run down some steepish hills where I have to pull over for traffic and stop they are useful.
but for club runs etc no difference in my opinion. the benefits are overstated
I've got hydrolic disc brakes on my 29er - great for when pulling the trailer and needing to control speed on a descent ... wish I could put them on my CX as I'd tend to use that for pulling the trailer - that said, I pulled the trailer with my Allez with 105 rim brakes and it was fine on there too.
The main advantage for me is that you don't seem to accumulate as much crap in disc brakes as you do with rim brakes - not really a problem on the road during the summer, but in winter ... that's when it would be handy - club runs or trailer pulling (not tried pulling the trailer on a club run yet ... )0 -
Having gone disc on my MTB 6 years ago, I didn't even consider a rim braked bike when I came to get something less agricultural. It'd have to be a spectacular (probably a classic, vintage) bike for me to buy a rim braked rig now.0
-
I should add that disks should be fully Hydraulic - everything else - TRP included - is a compromise and nowhere near as effective. MTBers very quickly realised that
I have full hydro on the flat bar and had Hy Rd on the Ritchey. There was a slight difference in feel. But they were equally effective.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
The article makes a combination of reasonable observations and others that are not true if you set your bike / brakes up properly. The bike mentioned has the same brakes r785 as my road bike but i have r685 shifters. The brakes are not fearsome and i have only locked the wheels up once testing traction on a loose surface. My previous road bike had rim brakes and in summer i switched to my disc braked mountain bike. I had to be a little careful to adjust to the much better brakes on the mountain bike but after a few minutes it was fine.
Disc brakes if setup properly don't rub. Only if you get them full of muck will they start rubbing which is easily cleared with a few taps on the brakes. If taken off road on wet sandy trails with alot of steep drops the disc pads can wear quickly.
Discs work fine in the wet but in very heavy rain can be noisy. Unlike rim brakes i haven't locked up disc brakes in the wet or had a who stole my brakes moment downhill.
The fluid contamination rarely happens on properly maintained hydraulic discs or there would be alot of casualties amongst mountain bikers. My XT disc brakes have lasted two years with only having to adjust the disc caliper once to stop rubbibg. The same is true for glazing pads.
If people want rim brakes thats their choice but suggesting discs are a minimal difference is clearly not true.0 -
How DID we manage before disc brakes!Cannondale Trail 6 - crap brakes!
Cannondale CAAD80 -
The same way people managed with wood rims and cork brake blocks. People use what's available at the time. :roll:0
-
I don't think this particular argument is going to die down in the near future. Just as some people cling to old tech some want things that are new to the market. Just ride what you want and leave others to ride what they want. Arguments as to which is better are a waste of time, I have both rim and hydraulic disc (2 disc, 1 x rim) and they are different, is one better than the other, who cares, not me.Rose Xeon CDX 3100, Ultegra Di2 disc (nice weather)
Ribble Gran Fondo, Campagnolo Centaur (winter bike)
Van Raam 'O' Pair
Land Rover (really nasty weather
)0 -
This is exactly the crux of the matter. I have always found Road bike brakes to be a little bit underwhelming probably because I ride mainly on the hoods. Riding when it is tipping it down can be a little bit worrying at times. I don't have a bike with disks but I would defo consider it in the future.The same way people managed with wood rims and cork brake blocks. People use what's available at the time. :roll:
I wonder if the internet bike forums had existed when STI levers were invented if you would have had the same sort of arguments going on (heavier, managed with down tube levers since the bike was invented, more expensive) and we all know what has happened since then.0 -
Been going on forever:
"I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft. Come on, fellows. Let's say that the test was a fine demonstration--for our grandparents! As for me, give me a fixed gear!"
Henri Desgrange in 1902! (on the subject of a bike with a three speed derailleur ridden by a female rider having just beaten a male rider on a fixed gear bike around a 200km hilly course!)
(derailleurs were finally allowed in the Tour de France in 1937).
For what it is worth, I agree with him. I am 42 and will stick with my fixed gear for another couple of years! (have managed 9796km on fixed so far this year, including a PBP and 66903m of ascent so far).0 -
There was probably stuff to leaflets (was all the rage at that time) when derailers first came out, and so on.
Lot is what your used to, for my self I've used disks on MTB for 10 years now, to my perspective rim brakes lack bite, be that the cheap CX with it's cantis or the Carbon 105 focus roadie I hired a month or two back.0 -
The author of the article comes across as a bit of a ham fisted novice. You may lock your disc brakes once or twice on your very first ride but you'd have to be pretty silly to keep doing it after that.argon 18 e116 2013 Vision Metron 80
Bianchi Oltre XR Sram Red E-tap, Fulcrum racing speed xlr
De Rosa SK pininfarina disc
S Works Tarmac e-tap 2017
Rose pro sl disc0 -
Yeah - I dont care what his pedigree is, the journo is quite obviously an ass and inexperienced/jaundiced when it comes to disc brakes. I have had the constant zinging with 2 out of 10 disc bikes my family has owned and both of these were MTBs with Avid Juicys - replacing them with Shimano or Elixirs sorted the problem. So to say he has NEVER had a bike which didnt have this problem suggests he hasnt tried many bikes at all... And to say they are too powerful and cause lockups is just bizarre. Even more bizarre to suggest smaller rotors might help as that would cause more heat problems on long descents, which is the one downside to disc brakes in my opinion (and experience).
I hated disc brakes for a while, when my first bike with them was using Juicy's with the constant zinging and sticky pistons etc. Then got my son an MTB with cable discs (BB5s) and thought that was the answer as it allowed more clearance around the rotor when not braking, but then I dot another pair of hydraulic discs and they were perfect - havent looked back since and now want them on every bike.
Only time I had a problem recently was in Italy with long steep descents when I think I had a bad set of pads that were new for the trip (although bedded in beforehand) which overheated very quickly and gave me no front end braking which really was scary - but changed the pads after a day or two of this (had taken a spare set with me of the same compound) and the problem was fixed. It takes a really long descent with lots of braking to overheat them normally but if cycling in the alps could be a valid concern.0 -
I think some of the arguments against discs from Hallet are over exaggerated. In 8 years of mtbing I've never had any of those issues except disc rub. A lot of issues aren't specific to disc brakes either.. pad wear, brake rub etc. He also fails to mention that rim failure on a rim brake is often more catastrophic than disc failure, as not only do you loose your brake, but you loose the tyre.
I run formula brakes on my mtb, which admittedly suffer from brake rub. It's never been noticable as 'drag' either, just an annoying noise really. However, shimano seem to have more clearance so this isn't an issue.
I don't think they're a game changer though. My rim brakes (ultegra 6800) are very good, although discs would be more consistent.
Some of the benefits of discs are still to come though as we don't have many disc specific road rims. I don't think disc wheels will ever be lighter, but they should 'spin up' quicker as material is taken from a brake track and moved closer to the hub (disc, spokes and the hub itself). Disc specific rims don't have the limitation of a brake track on shape, so I imagine can be more aero.
One of the big benefits of discs though is wheels are no longer 'consumables'. Wheels are generally regarded as having the biggest impacts on how a bike rides, yet I usually limit my spend on them as I know I'll be wearing them out in a year. With discs I'd be happy to plough in 3-4 years of 'wheel' cash, knowing that they should last years.0 -
The author of the article comes across as a bit of a ham fisted novice. You may lock your disc brakes once or twice on your very first ride but you'd have to be pretty silly to keep doing it after that.
The author of this blog strikes me as a bit of a ham-fisted novice too, at least when it comes to writing. Sorry if you're still reading tommy, but your hyperbolic commentary and cherry-picking of facts to illustrate what seems to be a personal agenda doesn't sit well.
To start, the first article you cite is not an industry-wide damnation of disc brakes, the author is saying "the 160mm rotor on this bike is too much for this bike, stick a smaller one on there". To extrapolate that as you have done is ludicrous.
You barely touch on the details of the second article other than the fact that Hallett doesn't like them, but the following assessments of some of the potential issues with disc brakes is, again, overblown and one-sided.
I don't have a strong opinion regarding disc brakes on road or mountain bikes (in fact I've never even ridden them on a road bike) but to suggest that there's an industry-wide conspiracy surrounding them is ridiculous. Yes, cycling magazines are trying to coerce people into buying stuff all the time but disc brakes are no different in that regard. They're appearing on road bikes because the market demanded them and if they're garbage then the press will report that because people are going to find that out anyway.
You seem to be trying to argue that an article about one instance of disc-brakes not being well implemented on one bike as evidence of the exact opposite, a mass deception stretching from the local bike shop through the press to the multinational manufacturers designed to dupe the entire industry.0 -
BLOGGER IN MONOMANIAC BEE IN BONNET SHOCK!
Whoever would have thought it?0
